I just got my 550d and barely got to testing it but a few days ago I imported the raw mpeg4 files into edius pro (those file were 1920x1080 with avg bitrate of 40/45mbs, trancoded to canopus hq, export as canopus hq avi file, import into tmpgenc 4.0 express and transcoded to dvd compliant file and then used encore cs3 to make my dvd. Nothing wrong with it, sound was good, image was good. And it was done on a 3 year old pc.

Sort of. The 7D/550D produce a similar file with a just slightly higher bit rate than the 5D.

Qualify my remarks? The file structure of the 5D and 7D is quite similar with the 7D/550D have a slightly higher bit rate. They are wrapped in the same container, and for the purposes of editing, are essentially indistinguishable.

You wonder if rendering these files to a DVD can be done? Of course. There is nothing special about getting these files to DVD that doesn't exist in any professional workflow going from HD to SD.


So you are using a decidedly consumer NLE to try and accomplish was is probably a pretty pro level task. Should still work assuming you are doing things correctly. If your DVD came out poorly, it had nothing to do with what came out of the camera. It's been converted twice by that point (once in the transcode to Cineform, and again in the transcode to Mpeg2 to make your DVD). So don't fault the camera for that, it's the workflow.


Why? We've got a dozen threads on how to do HD -> SD already. You have an error in your workflow somewhere (likely in the Mpeg2 encode step), but that should be easily solved. Work with someone here on how to encode for DVD and that should take care of the problem.

Then you likely need to increase your understanding of how to encode for final delivery.


That won't solve your problem. In fact, it's often MORE difficult to do this on a Mac, as there are more pieces involved. Ask in the Final Cut Pro section about using Compressor and the completely un-obvious need for frame controls.


Up to you. I've done both with complete success on numerous occasions.

Perrone,

I was in that HD-SD discussion for a while and it was all over the map. I know my video is fine and that the workflow is the problem. I just have not found a way to consistently produce great results. I know you use a lot of third party open source apps which is fine but i respectfully don't know wtf i'm doing when I get into these apps. They have more choices than I can intelligently set.

You're right the HD-SD discussion is all over here with some such as yourself reporting glowing success and others like myself never quite getting there. Is there not a cookbook path somewhere to take a full HD progressive MOV to a DVD in SD with great picture and sound. I mean this isn't creative- it's technical and should be a repeatable path.

Would you say the burn to BluRay simplifies this for the full HD MOV rendering to disc?

If only someone would have told me that at the time! Of course, I wasn't checking this marvelous forum back then... My fault.

Harry,

There are a couple of problems in the mix here.

FIrst, is the fact that you, and most others are not able to work directly with the codec that comes out of the camera. This necessitates doing a transcode. You've chosen Cineform which is an excellent codec, but you need to ensure that you are getting good quality at that step. I saw your post about that transcode producing interlaced footage where it should not. So right off the bat, you've got an error in the workflow that will undoubtedly reduce quality.

Second is the issue that we somehow have to get from 1920x1080 (or 1280x720) to 720x480 for NTSC purposes. When Vegas was my NLE, I chose to use 3rd party applications for this work because the rescaling in Vegas and most other NLEs is decidedly poor. Now that I use Avid, this is no longer necessary.

Third is the actual compression from Cineform AVI to Mpeg2. In Vegas Pro, you have the option of using the MainConcept Mpeg2 encoder. I don't know if this is available to you in VMS or not. If not, I suspect it does not have a great Mpeg2 encoder so you'll lose even more quality there. And how are you exporting your audio? DVD only supports PCM or AAC. What audio are you taking into DVDA 5?

It's not by happenstance that myself and others have glowing success with this. It's the fact that we've taken the time to truly understand the workflow and the pieces involved. And no, it's not always easy, and no, you generally can't just have the basic software do everything for you. This is not an "automatic" process. It takes care, and some understanding of the principles involved to get good results.

And for the record, going to BluRay only eliminates one potential problem area in the workflow. The rest of it will still need to be managed properly.

I'm sorry Perrone, but I've done a bunch of DVDs via 5d, FCP and Compressor and have NEVER once used "frame controls."

What exactly is that and why should I be using it?

(I honestly want to know!)

The last 5dMkii project I output via compressor, it gave me H-264 iphone rez which I've found does INCREDIBLY well on web sites for net compatibility (see www.newvideoaz.com - specifically in the Apriva Pay spot - the America's Cup footage was shot on very high end cameras or used high-rez stills, so it's not an example of 5d work.) and a DV letterbox version that I can burn to any DVD.

Nothing particularly complex about the process at all.

Am I missing something here?

I have a VERY cursory understanding of Compressor since I've only used it a couple of times, but in working with others here to find the best quality workflow to go from HD to SD, it was found that unless frame controls were turned on in Compressor, it was not possible to get best rescale out of the program.

This article hits the highlights, but I suggest reading through your documentation for a more full understanding:

Using Frame Controls in Compressor - Digital Rebellion Blog

<<You've chosen Cineform which is an excellent codec, but you need to ensure that you are getting good quality at that step. I saw your post about that transcode producing interlaced footage where it should not. So right off the bat, you've got an error in the workflow that will undoubtedly reduce quality.>>
Cineform gives limited settings - i choose best quality, and "Maintain source frame format" which i expected to yield a 1920x1080p AVI file but apparently 1920x1080i is what you get instead. (the other tow options are 2. Deinterlace and 3. Convert to 24p)

<<Second is the issue that we somehow have to get from 1920x1080 (or 1280x720) to 720x480 for NTSC purposes. When Vegas was my NLE, I chose to use 3rd party applications for this work because the rescaling in Vegas and most other NLEs is decidedly poor. Now that I use Avid, this is no longer necessary.>>
I'll look into Avid but would i still use Vegas to add titles etc?

<<Third is the actual compression from Cineform AVI to Mpeg2. In Vegas Pro, you have the option of using the MainConcept Mpeg2 encoder. I don't know if this is available to you in VMS or not. >>
It is if you do an individual save to disk you have options - the Burn to DVD is totally dumb wizard driven with no options so don't have any idea what it's doing.

<<And how are you exporting your audio? DVD only supports PCM or AAC. What audio are you taking into DVDA 5?>> again the wizard to burn DVD gives no settings and produces a .ac3 audio file. If I render the audio seperately to disk i can get more selective with settings

<<It's not by happenstance that myself and others have glowing success with this. It's the fact that we've taken the time to truly understand the workflow and the pieces involved. And no, it's not always easy, and no, you generally can't just have the basic software do everything for you. This is not an "automatic" process. It takes care, and some understanding of the principles involved to get good results.>>
Where can i get the conceptual knowledge of these principles? A good overall book ?? NLEs just show button functions etc and don't hit on principles

<<And for the record, going to BluRay only eliminates one potential problem area in the workflow. The rest of it will still need to be managed properly>>
But it would be a big problem eliminated - don't most folks are starting to have BluRay players (though i don't yet myself)

Thanks for your help - again.

Might want to post about this in the Cineform section. I don't use it so I don't know much about it. But it seems rather odd that it would actually change your source to interlaced.


Well, Avid is quite the jump from where you are now. And no, if you make the jump to Avid, you won't be using Vegas for anything.


Limitation of the consumer based version you have. It's not this way in more professional level tools.


Well, perhaps that's the option you should be taking. This wizard thing seems to be causing some real issues.


You get that knowlege from a variety of sources. Forums like this are one way. Books, online research, experience, talking to other experienced video editors and other technical folks, etc.


Well, you see it as a big problem. I see it as nothing more than 1 less step in the workflow. BluRay players are making good inroads, but it will be a year or two before I'd say they are prevalent.

I currently transcode to ProRes and edit in FCP, using Color for grading. Final Cut Studio is long past a major overhaul and unless Apple man up and deliver a full suite of professional post-production applications that actually work I'll be jumping ship to Adobe - the clock's ticking...

Perrone,

This Avid MC4/5 looks to cost around $2500 - do you run this on a PC or a MAC?

I use it on a PC.

after much suffering I find out that my 1920x1080p file gets converted by Cineform with same format but when i pull into Vegas, Vegas changes it behind the scenes to 1920x1080i upper fields first. This might explain some of my screwed up output eh....

That is a problem for sure! I'd open a ticket with Cineform, and post over in the Cineform area. This should certainly not be happening, and I wonder if it's simply being misreported by Vegas. Wouldn't be the first time it's happened with Vegas.

Turns out to be a Vega thing nor Cineform. Vegas sets the file to interlaced upper fields first behinfd the scenes automatically

I now need to find out if Cineform can do the down convert to the AVI for me.

Another question is the 1920x1080 aspect ratio is more 16x9 wide screen format right - seems like all the SD wants to go 740x480 which is more square a/r.

Also can the SD to DVD be progressive. All my DVD Architect project media choices are interlaced??

Set the Vegas project to 23.976p or 29.97p and the Cineform files should be interpreted just fine. I've never seen an Interlace/Progressive problem going from 5D2 -> NeoScene -> Vegas Pro 8 or 9.

"Works fine on my box" is the ol' programmer's cry. I'll come over to your house and work Jon ;-)

I'll see you around 7pm... ;)

I'm wondering about a few things: do you have the project setting set properly, the versions of your apps, and if you are actually seeing problems in your footage.

I haven't looked at recent files, but I seem to remember that Canon's MOVs are set as Progressive, but Odd Line First, which is nonsensical. I thought NeoScene fixed that with its output, but maybe we're using different versions.

I am still here, I just had the worse weekend of my life...I had a freak accident happen and lost my 1 1/2yr puppy this weekend. Very sad week. Any who....since I have no experience with Adobe, Avid, Final Cut and so on...I find editing with Pinnacle easy for what we do..

However, I would like to step it up... I just have little resources to learn without some english guy who makes no sense on a dvd that hasn't been updated for over a year.

Thanks in advance...

Sorry you lost the puppy. That's really tough.

Thank you soo much. It's been really a ruff weekend and on top of it my Gf and I both had weddings this weekend so she had to shoot a wedding the day after it happened...i'm glad she's so strong... But it really was horrible what happened. I pray no one else ever experiences that!

Jon,

I'll bring the beer and salsa and chips...

Using the latest greatest Sony Vegas Studio HD 10. I usually will drag media in the form of a Cineform 1920x1080p avi onto the timeline in Vegas Studio. Vegas Studio immediately converts the media to 1920x1080i avi with Upper field first checked or at least that's what it's reporting. Poor ol Cineform gets blamed for it so Cineform very prominently explains this Vegas behavior on their site. Cineform Tech Blog Blog Archive Progressive AVIs in Sony Vegas Pro


I'm getting back into the ol' VirtualDub application for the down sizing part such that I have some control over the process. Then at some point I've got to figure out how to get DVD Architect Studio 5 to render the correct files to disc....

Since all of you are using vegas and cineform, (this might not be the right thread i post this)
Have you guys tried dragging the Neoscene Converted files to Vegas, then drag a h.264 (not converted) to the same timeline?
I see that the quality is much different. Neoscene converted files still tend to show a loss of quality.

You can try it, so I think there has to be a way not to go thru Neoscene conversion. That is why im trying cs5, to see if the DVD quality is way better.

Maybe Vegas will have this feature in the future. So I'd suggest you try FCP or CS5 and see the difference.

I have Vegas 9 Pro but I prefer to use Pinnacle 14 as it edits MOV files right out of the box in full resolution. Vegas makes me go through all types of transcoding hoops, and its output looks no better than Pinnacle's, which is identical to the original files. Whatever extra features other systems have, the speed and ease of Pinnacle outweighs them for me.