Here's one company that makes them. (google is an amazing thing)

http://www.warmcards.com/wb101.html

As I posted earlier in the thread, you can make a set of these easily with an inkjet printer, additionally if you do a search of white balancing, you will find discussion of another simple technique using a colored gel. All of these are easy to do in the field, or you can pre-white balance under similar lighting, and hold the setting by turning the standby switch to lock. You can even achieve this (although with less control) by just pointing your camera at a lighter area of a blue sky, and setting a custom white balance.

Barry

Cooler?
 

I can't say that I find the GL2's picture to be " cool " color wise. I actually think it looks the most realistic of any camera I've owned so far ( less red bleed than the GL1 which was known for its " warm look " ). But I've never done a direct comparison with a VX2000 either. Funny thing about spending so much on a camera - those that spent thier money on a VX2000 say it has the sharpest picture, those that had bought the GL1 say the picture looked " warmer ". Then I read an article by a wedding video outfit that had both cameras. Guess what? Other than in the lowest light, they said the pictures were interchangable! Yes, you probably are spliting hairs!

Heidi,

I do some corporate work that allows me to set up each shot. I also do wildlife work which gives me zero set up a great deal of the time. You never know when the bird will fly off its perch. I can white balance a camera in 10 seconds or less. I'm a creature of habit. I set up the camera the same way every time, so I don't miss a step. When I got my first XL1 I practiced setting up the camera. It helped me learn the controls and my speed improved dramatically as my confidence with the camera grew.

Jeff

Howdy from Texas,

Heidi said: "My problem is, I do lots of shooting where I don't have much time in between when I pick up the camera, turn it on, and shoot."

This is another reason why the GL2 is such a great camera... you can set up the image any way you want, and dial the color, etc. to your satisfaction. You do this one time. Then, whenever you pick up the camera, just press one button to bring up that favorite custom image configuration. It's retained in camera memory, for you to recall whenever you need it, with a single button-press at any time. Hope this helps,

5 mins before reading Chis' post I was doing just that; setting the GL-2's "Custom Preset" button. It's a very nice feature indeed, borrowed from the XL1s.

And in contrast to Barry's review...
 

...is this one on Dirck Halstead's site:

http://dirckhalstead.org/issue0208/cameracorner.htm

Ken, I didn't realize you have a GL2 now.

Chris,
Just got it (from ZGC) this week. Having used a GL-1 since 1999 (and loved it) I was just curious about how the new guy compared. (Read: Too much time on my hands.)

My take, in a jingle, so far : "Evolution not Revolution". The industrial design of the case and (most) controls is more refined. The finish is more tactile and less slippery. The larger eyecup will be very nice to have for bright outdoor shooting. Resolution and color management are definitely improved. I'll have better impressions after shooting the Chicago Air & Water Show this weekend.

The GL-2 will be the new mobile companion to my XL1s. So far the footage between the two seems to match pretty well.

BTW, I also bought that new, tiny on-camera light for the GL-2 (the VL-3). No, you can't really use it to light very much but I still think it's really cool. It plugs directly into the new smart hot shoe (no cables) and runs off of the cam's battery. It also has an "auto" mode that automatically turns it on when the camera needs it. It will make a good "eye light".

Also BTW, the original LightWave Equalizer designed for the GL-1's onboard mic also fits the GL-2's mic, even though the latter is slightly wider and longer.

Unique Eyecup?
 

Hey, on Dirck Halstead's GL-2 review page, it looks like he has an eyecup that's different from both the standard and the large eyecup. It looks similar to a film camera's eyecup. Anyone know the skinny on this item?

Finally, I decided!
 

Thanks to all of you in this wonderful forum! I waited a long time to decide which camcorder to buy and your tips are great. Promise to send my impression from the GL-2 as soon as I will get it (I’m going to use it for broadband as well).
Zohar

I believe the cup you refer to is a Ikkup Rubber Eyecup. Google returned two sources Adorama http://www.adorama.com/refby.tpl?sku=VHI and Video Smith http://www.videosmith.com/cgi-local/store/commerce.cgi?search_request_button='Next_Page'&product=accessories&page=&item=&cart_id=&keywords=&hi ts_seen=10 I've been to Video Smith before and didn't recall seeing it. But I checked again, and sure enough it was there $29.95 with an assortment of oddball adapters.

Jeff

Thanks you guys... You are definitely giving me hope... (I plan to try the various blue white balance ideas this weekend).

I'll have to take a closer look, but I'm wondering though, how would I maintain a custom white balance from shoot to shoot (assuming the lighting doesn't change much)?

Once I set the custom white balance, does the camera remember it, even if I turn the camera off?

Would this actually be done in the Custom Preset (I don't recall seeing this) or else where?

Thanks!

-Heidi

Heidi, unfortunately the GL2 does not sport a white balance memory feature. You'd have to step up to the XL1S, which allows a couple of white balance memory settings.

Memory white balance
 

Chris, Ken,

Oh, sorry.

I thought a memory white balance was what you were referring to in earlier posts.

-Heidi

Hi, Heidi.

Now that I've used my GL2 for a couple weeks, I suspect two possibilities: 1) your GL2 is broken. Because my colors are accurate, not blue-biased. You know there IS a lot of blue in nature, like anywhere you have any kind of shadow or "darkness." Things that look "gray" are actually full of blue and violet. My Gl2 is not making things blue where they aren't already. It could be that you WANT red/yellow that isn't there? or, 2) you're viewing your footage on something which is biasing the image blue. Better check it on an accurate monitor.

I'm very pleased to have a camera that gets the colors right.

I use Auto mode with a CP of +1 on the color saturation and -1 on the level. I use auto white balance or I set it if I want a certain color slant. Point it at something white and press the wb key.

You might ask to try another one to see if yours is out of jigger.

Best,

b

Hey, thanks Jeff. The Ikkup (geez, sounds more like a spasm of the diaphram) might be worth a try.

XM2 UK
 

Just been comparing the specs of the XM2 against the GL2, the GL2 says it has a min lux of 6 Lux where as the XM2 has 3 lux, why is this? I know the XM2 has more pixels because it's PAL but how does that explain the lower lux? Not that I'm complaining of course.


Peter

Heidi,

In our earlier posts, we were referring to the Custom Preset menu... where you can change the overall look of the video through four parameters: Color Gain (how much color), Color Phase (toward red or toward green), Sharpness and Setup Level (how much black). You can tailor the video how you like, and save this custom configuration and recall it at any time with the push of a button.

That's a separate deal from white balance. Unfortunately, there are no white balance memory settings in the GL2. There's a white balance setting for daylight and indoors, and a way to set manually. However, no ability to save a custom white balance to memory (there is the feature on the XL1S, however). Hope this helps,

Heidi,

The one way to hold a custom white balance is to turn the standby switch to "lock" rather than turn off the camera when you finish shooting...this will hold all your camera settings...I do this all the time, and I do not believe the camera uses any power in this mode, so you shouldn't have any battery drain by doing this (Chris may know more about this.)

One other option...use the standard Daylight white balance setting (or tungsten if indoors) and instead of a skylight filter to protect your lens, use a haze 2 filter, or 81a or b...these will add various amounts of warming, without a telltale "orange shift".

Still, the best situation would be the custom white balance to the blue cards to get the most accurate and consistent color.

Have you tried my (and others) suggestion from last week of doing a custom color preset?...this seems to be what you are looking for, as it would apply to any lighting situation, including using auto white balance.... I don't remember you mentioning whether you tried it or not.

Barry

The ongoing debate about color needs to have this added: Everyone has different color perception, due to the eyes or processing in the brain. Some people see a different shade of color and also brightness between their own two eyes. If two or more people have such varying perceptions and watch the same TV, there will be constant bickering about how it's adjusted. Until all people are cloned from the same genetic code, this will continue.
I've never had a videocamera that didn't produce too much red and that wasn't a bit weak in the green area to my eyes, but others may see something else in my footage.

Men who have a sex-linked, partial color blindness, tend to see little or no red, which is in the lower frequencies of the visible range. Many of them don't realize they have this (or won't admit it). I believe that these men are the ones they hire at the factories to set the colors on the cameras.

Steve McDonald

Manual white balance on blue cards
 

Barry,

So I'm currently in the process of trying the 5 and 10% blue manual white balance you suggested (my hubby printed them out on his computer), and I'm running in to a little problem.

When I go to "set" the white balance (after I've zoomed in on the blue, etc.) the little white balance icon won't stop flashing. It defintely stops flashing when I manually white balance white, but with the blues it won't stop flashing.

The manual says this may happen (and that the icon may just flash slowe instead of stopping), but I'm wondering if you know what's up. And I doing something wrong? Have you (or anyone else) ever experienced this?

Thanks,
Heidi

Where are you doing the manual white balance? The flashing may indicate that the color temperature of the light is outside the range of the cameras ability to fully correct it. This would be true of the auto white balance also. Generally speaking most cameras have a greater range of white balance adjustment in manual than in auto.

Jeff

A bit more
 

Hi Barry,

Ooops, one more thing...

So now I am trying your suggested adjustments (-1 sharpness, +1 color gain, +1 setup) and I can't seem to get the "CP" to show up in my viewfinder.

Here's what I'm doing:

1. I go into the Menu.
2. I select Custom Presets
3. I set the Custom Preset levels
4. I scroll down to"return"
4. The entire menu appears in my viewfinder 9includng the Custom Pressets option)
5. I hit the Menu button to get out.
6. Now, there is now mwnu in my viewfinder but neither is there a "CP"

I can't think of another way to do this, yet I don't see the "CP" (although the Presets are held)

Any tips?

Also, incidentally, when you say "+1" do you mean: scroll once (until the little box-shaped icon on the horizonal line changes to a smaller/skinnier box) or, do I need to scroll twice (since the first time the icon changes from a big box to a little box, I'm not sure it has actually avanced one time).

Thank you again!

-Heidi










\

Jeff,

I'm doing the white balance in the same room (an indirect sun-ny room) where I am also shooting.

But why would blue not work, but white (a lighter color) work?

Also, how would I KNOW whether the white blanace on the blue isn't working or the light is just flashing slower (whatever that means) but it IS working!?

Hm, interesting about the Manual vs. Auto. That kinds sucks as I may actually want to shoot in Auto sometimes (I have to admit...)

Thanks,
H

Heidi,

I don't have the specs on the GL2, I said generally speaking. Canon, and most mfgs. don't release complete specs, like color temperature range, on their prosumer cameras. Is the warm card you made blue or cyan? There is a big difference. Have you read the Warmcards pages? http://www.warmcards.com/wb101.html

This is a guess, but I'm suggesting that the flashing symbol indicates the WB is only partially corrected. This was the way my broadcast betacam cameras worked. I'm guessing the Canons may work in a similar maner. Anyone know for sure?

Jeff

Hi Jeff,

Yeah, I order some warmcards, but they haven't arrived yet.

Also, yes to Cyan (no to blue).

Finally, as for the flashing light... when this happened to you, did the white balance actually change (even if not exactly correctly)?

-H

Good to the cyan, it will add red which I think is where you want to be. This is a guess, but based on how the XL1 seems to work ( I fired it up, to try some of this out) if the symbol is flashing the WB is adjusted, but perhaps not fully corrected. The necessary correction excedes the range of the manual WB. For example the color temp is 2000¼ K (beyond the range of most cameras to correct). You manually WB and the color temp. is corrected to 5500¼K. The correct WB should be 6500¼ K so manual WB got you close. The camera just can't correct 4500¼, it's outside the range of the camera. This is just an example.

Have you tried WB the camera in different lighting situations? Outside in shade, daylight etc to see if the blinking quits?

Jeff

Heidi

I hadn't tried this with the gl-2 yet, so I thought I'd give it a whirl.

I printed 5% and 10% fills of cyan only and 5 and 10% fills of blue (cyan and magenta blend). I was able to white balance correctly on all 4 patches, with the expected results of a slight red shift on the cyan patches and a slight yellow shift on the blue patches. Worked like a charm...I think this is an excellent way to tune the camera's color to your liking...I'll be mounting these up for my location kit, and making up some other colors for my preferred "cool" look (Spielberg 1999-02).

I pointed my camera at some more heavily colored fills and saw the same problem you reported, so my guess is that your printer is printing the colors too dark. You could try printing a lighter percentage, or see if your printer allows you to lighten the ink setting (epson's do). The colors should look like a VERY light pastel blue.

I spoke with a friend who just purchased the WarmCards, and he felt that they were too strongly tuned...giving very strong color shifts, that were like looking through a tobacco filter. He said the lightest one gave decent results. It might be worth experimenting with a few colors until you get the look you want.

Good luck

Barry

Heidi,

If you look at the Warmcard site again you'll see how light the colors Barry is talking about.

Jeff

Heidi,

Just saw your second post..Once you set your custom preset info and close the menu, you need to press the custom preset button on the left side of the camera (by the white balance selector )...

Also, The custom preset you quoted will maintain a neutral balance...you may also want to bump the color phase button several points to the red...as Julia Childs would say...."to taste"

As for the adjustment levels, +1 = one bump.

Barry

Heidi,

I looked again, and actually the "custom preset" button is next to the "custom key"(which is next to the white balance buttons, and is a totally different thing)

Barry

Heidi

One more thing..I did a few more printouts, and was able to white balance against a 20% cyan and blue with no trouble..and I got excellently warm results (best from the cyan), I think you'll like it. I tried, an orange and pink patch and got more modest results at cooling things down...

Barry

Heidi

In my endless quest for knowledge...(I really wanted to max things out...and see if I could duplicate your experience) I printed another set of color patches at 25 to 40 percent...and finally got the slow blinking white balance on most colors in the 30-40 percent range. As I think jeff noted, essentially the camera is telling you "that's all there is". I don't think you would want to go that far anyway, as the color starts getting pretty weird (especially skin tones), with some pretty bleedy reds.

I was able to get a nice "flourescent lighting" green using a 30% magenta patch, and a coolish dusk-like blue with a mixture of 25 magenta and 20 yellow...

Hope this is of some help.

Barry

Barry, Jeff...
 

Jeff, Barry,

Thanks for all the posts (help)!

I'll try to make a few more print outs this evening and try again tomorrow am/early afternoon.

If either of you is around, and have nothing better to do then check this site
(only kidding), I'd love your input if I run into another problem... You've been extrmely helpful!

One question, Barry, you mentioned that 20% looked good. But if I'm running into the flashing icon problem at 5 or 10% (assuming our printer is working OK) I imagine 20% would be worse. Right? Or, am I misunderstanding you?

I'll try lighter (as you suggest) and see what happens.

Oh and by the way, sorry for asking such a dumb question about the Custom Preset button -- I forgot it was there!

-Heidi

Your last post
 

Barry,

Sorry I missed your last reply...

So, two things:

1. I just tried the white balance on blue again (same colors -- which, by the way, are a light-colored pastel, same location of cards, different lighting -- it's now 7 pm here vs. late am when I first tried).

And, I could successfully get the icon to "set."

Now I'm in a real quandry.

It seems as if you found that the darker (more blue/cyan) the white card is, at some point, the more difficult it is to white balance on. (Do I have this correct?)

Here's the rub. When I first tried this earlier today, I had the cards in one of the sunnier areas of a relatively (mosty indirect) sunny room. The icon kept flashing.

Just a few minutes ago, I put the same cards in the same spot but now, although the room is light, since it's 7 pm here there is no sun at all. (Sunset is around 8:15 pm) And, the icon "set."

So, my question -- what did I do wrong? I'm assuming I did something wrong. Otherwise, I'd have to assume that there are some locations I just won't be able to successfully manually white balance in, and I just can't believe that.

It seems as if the white balance worked when the light was darker (and therefore, the color of the cards also appreared darker) and similar to your 25-40% darker, flashing icon cards), rather then with more light in the room, making the cards appear even lighter pastel colors.

Did I just make myself clear???

Any ideas?


2. You just said

"As I think jeff noted, essentially the camera is telling you "that's all there is". I don't think you would want to go that far anyway, as the color starts getting pretty weird (especially skin tones), with some pretty bleedy reds."

What do you mean, "that's all there is"?


Again, your help is 1000 times appreciated.

-Heidi

Most camcorders take their samples for white-balance settings through the lens. But, a couple of years ago, I was given a new Canon A-1 Digital Hi-8 camcorder, that has a separate, white plastic window to the right of the lens for this. the camera was always showing too much red, either in auto WB or if I set it manually. So, I took a red, wide-tipped marking pen and made a 1/4" square in the middle of the window and put it on auto WB. Just like the printed sheets with the opposite color flavor you want in the image, this shifted the WB away from red into a cooler image that pleased me. You do understand that the WB sensor will shift the color balance away from what it sees, that varies from white, rather than towards it.

You don't need to print color sheets to trick the WB into shifting the opposite way. A collection of colored pens can be used to shade small sectors of the sheet in different colors and sizes, in a way that is more versatile and controlable than a printer can produce. Perhaps small portions of the sampled sheet with solid patches of blue, could work better than to print the whole area with a light shade of blue. You might also try some green, which is in the middle of the visible color spectrum, to shift the WB away from a cooler setting, towards one that is warmer.

Steve McDonald

Barry, Steve:
 

Thanks, Steve. I had a Canon A-1, too and really liked it. Until it broke...
As for the green white balance, why green over blue?

Barry, did you do equal amounts of cyan and magenta to get blue?

-Heidi

Experimentation can yield many different and sometimes unexpected results. This can be fine when you're just playing and trying to better understand the camera. However, I would caution against your method of random pattern WB. When you're shooting on the job, the goal is to have each shot look just like the next. This will require that you white balance the camera the same way each time the lighting changes. This will produce the most consistent results in my experience. The random pattern of colored portions could produce varying WB and require color correcting in post.

I also feel that a printer will produce a more even and consistent color then a marking pen. While everyone will get different results, my printer is extremely accurate and I use it for color proofing.

Jeff

I wasn't suggesting random pattern color in a white-balance sheet. I would mark out very even and repeatable sectors with colored ink. The sheet could be re-used if light values changed or reproduced, if you kept a record of its color sectors. This seems to be a discussion of experimentation and a lot of different variations in color
might lead to a desired result. Not everyone has the printer setup to produce such exact WB color sheets.

Heidi, I suggested trying some green sectors, because it's warmer than blue, but cooler than red. Using it might warm up the picture just a little. Or, it might mess it up?? It's just one more thing to try, since you're having little luck so far in pleasing yourself. As I was implying before, show your recorded footage to a number of other people (smart, sensitive ones) and get their takes on how warm or cool your GL2 picture appears. By the way, how did your Canon A-1 picture look to you in white-balance? My original A-1 and A-1 Digital, as well as my L-1, always seem too red, unless I take special efforts to trick the WB, as I described.

Steve McDonald

Hi Steve,

Experimentation is great and I am suggesting that Heidi experiment to obtain the desired warmth in her images. However, once the desired effect is obtained it must be repeatable, in order to consistently achieve the same result. The use of a pattern (random or ordered) makes consistent WB more difficult to obtain. If the exact pattern doesn't fill the viewfinder in the exact same way, each WB will be slightly different. If your zoomed differently or framed differently more of one color can predominate. Sometimes the difference will be very slight, others more noticeable. But the results can and will be inconsistent.

Heidi is also looking for a method to very quickly WB her camera to the desired warmth. The use of a patterned WB card will be slower because of the more precise method needed to insure exact placement of the card in the viewfinder. A solid color WB card allows for much quicker placement and checking in the viewfinder.

WB to green will add Magenta, WB to Cyan will add Red and WB to Blue will add Yellow.

Jeff

Question
 

So here is the latest, as I test these blue and cyan white balances.

Much to my dismay, I still can not set the cyan (and/or blue) white balances. I keep trying but the icon won't stick, it keeps flashing!

The ONLY way I can get it to stick is to place the card in the very darkest area of the room. Granted, the room is well-lite but it's only indirect light. Has anyone had this problem?

I tried it in a darker room and it worked fine.

Why would a white blance OK in a bright room, but not a 3% blue (or cyan)?

-H