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-   -   HV20 working out well for greenscreen! (https://www.dvinfo.net/forum/canon-vixia-series-avchd-hdv-camcorders/107239-hv20-working-out-well-greenscreen.html)

Scott Aubuchon December 21st, 2007 08:31 PM

As far as the whole gamma issue (PC/Mac), I have found a solution... Well, at least a reliable way to display.

The new flash player can display H.264 movies. I have embedded a .m4v and .mov that look spot on (as far as gamma)... across all platforms and browsers.

The only downside, the player update is very new, so not everyone has it yet... but they will.

Ben Syverson December 22nd, 2007 05:33 PM

Aldo, most colors should be fine. Anything in the green range will get obviously get desaturated... You may want to be careful with yellow as well -- it might be best to shoot some tests if you need to protect yellow.

Les, the new version does indeed work in Motion (2.0 and up) and FCP (5.1.2 and up)!

Scott -- good to know! Thanks for letting us know what you wound up doing.

Les Caudle January 24th, 2008 07:41 PM

Ben - I gather the video tutorials are the hang-up for the release of dvMatte Pro 3.

Any chance on posting a quick demo from the creator using:
http://www.ambrosiasw.com/utilities/snapzprox/

showing the proper use of the plug-in along with Screenfix, etc?

BTW - this thead is missing messages posted after Dec 22.

Anthony Torres January 25th, 2008 09:12 AM

Tutorials are the Delay
 
Les,

The tutorials are the delay. I posted it to the main forum, but it got bounced off. The talent is ill, so until that person recuperates, they're holding off the launch. DVGarage is a small company, and you can only launch a product once (in theory). Being sick is no fun, so hopefully they get better soon.
Best, Anthony Torres
(fwiw-I called for the straight scoop.)

Ben Syverson January 25th, 2008 03:47 PM

Hey guys,

Yeah, Alex has been sick, and then I had some problems ensuring the demo versions would work in FCP 5... I did record screencasts for the beta test, and those might find their way online as well, I'm not sure. Regardless, I'll be recording some screencasts once we launch to show people some more advanced techniques.

Stay tuned!

Scott Aubuchon January 25th, 2008 09:50 PM

quick question... I have dvMatte blast, is it more efficient to use in final cut or motion... or does it not matter.

When I say efficient, I guess I mean quicker. Seems like it takes a while to render in FCP, but I have not done much testing in motion. (waiting on my new mac pro to ship)

Any insight would be great.

Les Caudle January 28th, 2008 09:20 AM

Ben - I use ProRes 422 HQ. I've just realized that ProRes has no alpha channel, which kind of blew me away.

What is the best workflow to move between FCP and Motion, letting each do what it does best? Almost all of my clips will be green screen.

Ocean Zen January 28th, 2008 11:03 AM

I bought a BlackMagic Intensity Card to capture HDMI output from my Canon HV20 whilst recording green screen footage

I have a Mac Pro with Final Cut Studio2 and planned on capturing to ProRes422

What codec would you recommend? I would prefer one that I don't have to pay for.

Les Caudle January 28th, 2008 10:19 PM

Ocean Zen - If you were asking the question of me, I've been recording in ProRes with no issues, but I'm trying to come up with a workflow to go back and forth between FCP and Motion.

I don't think filters make the trip, so stripping out the background in a 1st step and generating a new file seems to make sense.

But then, I'm very new at this and was hoping someone with more experience would chime in.

Maybe FCP7 (sometime this year??) will add another ProRes codec - or Apple could add this to Quicktime anytime they wanted for more power.

Or - maybe a CineForm solution is the way to go?
http://www.cineform.com/products/CineFormRecorder.htm

Ben Syverson January 29th, 2008 01:52 AM

Les, you should be able to roundtrip between FCP and Motion without rendering, so codecs shouldn't come into play.

Ocean Zen -- ideally, capture to Blackmagic's uncompressed codec. You payed for the card, so you might as well get true uncompressed footage from it! :)

Ocean Zen January 29th, 2008 06:32 AM

True uncompressed footage would be a bit too big for my hard drives.

BlackMagic say I have these options codec-wise

Intensity supports many of the advanced Final Cut Pro™ features such as 10 bit rendering, RT Extreme™, and support for ProRes 422, HDV, JPEG, DV, DV50, DV100, 8 & 10 bit uncompressed media types.

Does DV100 have an alpha channel? - Is ProRes422 really not suitable for green-screen?

I just don't know what codec to use.
Thanks for your help guys

Les Caudle January 29th, 2008 09:19 AM

Ocean Zen - I think Ben is saying that ProRes will work fine. Just don't render until finished.

Filters don't make it into motion from FCP, but I think Motion filters make it back into FCP, so possibly the green screen filtering and many filters should be done in Motion?

So basic editing of clips in FCP, then Motion magic with roundtrip back to FCP if necessary, then render to ProRes where it doesn't matter if there is no alpha channel (for final rendered file).

Les Caudle January 29th, 2008 09:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben Syverson (Post 781642)
Regarding Photoshop... I have a stealth plan for getting into Photoshop. But I've said too much already. :)

Ben - With the release of dvMatte Pro (hopefully) this Wed, could you elaborate here or by personal email (You should have mine unless I got caught in your spam filter - or I can receive them on this forum).

BTW - maybe I'm the only one that made this mistake, but if anyone is using two monitors with Motion, you halve the available VRAM and drastically reduce the speed and capabilities of Motion. I found that if I set my monitors to 'mirror' - this 'fixes' the problem - and I can easily switch back to non-mirrored for normal use.

Ben Syverson January 29th, 2008 03:17 PM

There is zero difference quality-wise between using dvmatte in FCP vs Motion. So unless you have a more complex composite, you can just stay in FCP. When roundtripping FCP -> Motion -> FCP, there is no rendering, so codecs do not come into play. FCP basically opens the Motion project within FCP and renders it there.

If you need to output a movie with an alpha for going to a totally different suite like CS3, then you need to choose a codec with alpha support. ProRes obviously won't work, besides which, you don't need 10 bit for HV20 footage. A better option is the Animation codec at high quality with keyframes every 10 frames. I believe at that setting, it is lossless. However, those files will be quite large. You really only need to do this for FX shots you're passing to AE, Shake, etc, for which you also need to maintain the alpha. It shouldn't come into play within Final Cut Studio.

Anthony Torres January 30th, 2008 11:33 AM

3rd Times A Charm?
 
It's Jan 30, noon EST. I hope dvMattePro 3 goes live today!
If not, when's the true ETA?

Best, Anthony Torres
Patiently Waiting...

Les Caudle January 30th, 2008 01:28 PM

Ben - when recording 24p for green screen, would I be better off setting as high of a shutter speed as possible (making sure the gain doesn't kick in)?

It would seem logical to me that with less motion blurring, your software could work more efficiently?

I know you've advised to turn

Sharpness -1, and Contrast -1, Color -1.

Using the flash memory half-press photo button, I think I can figure out where I'm getting the proper shutter and f-stop without any gain (if I'm correct, I can do this no matter which mode I'm in).

Do you have any preferences shooting in (Tv/Av) mode or CINE mode in a studio with controlled lighting?

And if using CINE - any interesting FCP filter settings to bring out the HV20's full glory?

BTW - congratulations on getting your new software out today!

Anthony Torres January 30th, 2008 10:10 PM

Bueller? Bueller?
 
Alas, today's not the day. Maybe tomorrow...

Or maybe post a "secret" link so we can know the specs/cost before the videos are posted and the site is accurate? That'd be awesome!

Ben Syverson January 31st, 2008 01:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Les Caudle (Post 817158)
Ben - when recording 24p for green screen, would I be better off setting as high of a shutter speed as possible (making sure the gain doesn't kick in)?

No, just shoot normally. Motion blur is not much of an issue with this new version.

Quote:

Do you have any preferences shooting in (Tv/Av) mode or CINE mode in a studio with controlled lighting?
Conventional wisdom says to shoot 24p at 1/48th, which mimics the 180° shutter on a film camera. How you get there is up to you. Personally, I like the look of the Cine mode, but that's subjective. dvmatte definitely doesn't care. :)

Quote:

And if using CINE - any interesting FCP filter settings to bring out the HV20's full glory?

BTW - congratulations on getting your new software out today!
Thanks! Filter-wise, I do all of my color grading in Conduit. I like having full control and realtime feedback. "Color" is interesting, but I wrote most of the nodes in Conduit, so I have a better idea what's actually happening to my images in Conduit vs Color. :)

Austin Meyers January 31st, 2008 11:56 AM

I've posted up some green screen clips i shot using the IOHD with numerous color/contrast etc settings. check it out:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=113509

also does anyone have any thoughts on the intensity card vs the IOHD as far as quality differences? is the prores capture from the IOHD via HDMi going to be the same as the intensity?

Paul Nixon January 31st, 2008 12:38 PM

Ben,

The corrector plate idea intrigues me greatly, but I'm not sure I quite understand how it works. You shoot just the screen, then you shoot the action against the screen. The "software" uses the "blank" screen - how exactly?

And have you any idea whether I could use it in either Liquid 7.2 or Commotion Pro?

Ben Syverson January 31st, 2008 01:49 PM

Hi Paul,

The correction plate helps dvmatte understand what is the screen and what is the subject. By using a screen correction plate, you can make your screen appear perfectly even -- then you pass that to dvmatte, and it has a much easier time keying!

I had never heard of Liquid until I googled it just now. It looks like they don't have an SDK, so I can't code plugins for it -- bummer. As for Commotion, it supports some AE plug-ins, so I may support it in the future. But since AE plug-ins are CPU-only, it will be much, much, much slower than the realtime FCP/FCE/Motion version.

Anthony Torres January 31st, 2008 06:58 PM

Ben: Awesome Software/DV Matte Pro failed to render?
 
Ben,

Awesome software! I downloaded the demo. Unfortunately I get this error message when I attempt to render: "The effect "dvmatte pro demo" failed to render: Your hardware cannot render at the requested size and depth."

I have an iMac G5 2ghz single processor, 1.5 ram. The footage was 1440x1200 Pro Res 24P.

Is this a random glitch with the demo (as you posted earlier) or does the full version have a conflict with ProRes codec?

Please advise.
Thanks, Anthony

PS: Last I knew, Commotion is dead software. I love it- awesome roto/mattes/paint- but I don't think they're doing any further development. Don't want you to expend much time on a dead end.

Les Caudle January 31st, 2008 08:29 PM

Anthony - are you using dual monitors?

If so, set the monitors to 'mirror' while you render.

When using 2 monitors off the same card, you are halving your available VRAM and can get that error msg for very simple renders.

Anthony Torres January 31st, 2008 09:45 PM

Cannot be rendered with Graphic Card
 
Hey! Thanks for the suggestion. I have the imac with no additional monitors. I turned off the other functions (HDV out). Here's the error I receive when I put the effect on:
The effect "dv..." cannot be rendered in a sequence of this size with the current graphics card.

It's Chipset ATY, RV351
Type: Display
Bus/Slot: AGP
VRAM: 128 MB
Vendor: ATI
Device id: 0x4150
Revision ID: 0x0000

It's some glitch, probably in my settings. I adjust the image where the playhead is parked, but no renders. Any help is appreciated. The intro special is awesome!

Les Caudle February 1st, 2008 04:53 PM

Ben - is there an ideal stacking order to dvMatte Pro3 plug-ins?

Les Caudle February 2nd, 2008 11:41 AM

Ben - I have a small suggestion for dvMatte Pro.

I use Logic Pro Studio. With any fader in Logic Pro, you can adjust the fader, and option-click it to bring it back to the neutral position.

You might consider doing this with dvMatte Pro. The default position is not always at 0 or the middle point (2 for vBlur fader) and when fiddling with things, it is always nice to be able to quickly go back to the default position with an option-click on the fader.

Ben Syverson February 2nd, 2008 06:42 PM

Hmm... That's really a host issue. To implement that, I'd have to code a custom interface, which would break a lot of nice features that built-in parameters get for free from the host.

In Motion, you can click on the parameter's little "-" menu to the right, and choose "reset parameter." But FCP is a little behind in terms of their parameter UI. They are working on it though -- they just added parameter groups like Motion has. So they might be open to suggestions. :)

Ben Syverson February 2nd, 2008 06:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Les Caudle (Post 818739)
Ben - is there an ideal stacking order to dvMatte Pro3 plug-ins?

In order from first applied to last applied (they're visually flipped in FCP vs Motion), this would be typical for stuff I've been working on:

1. dvmatte screenfix (to neutralize the screen)
2. VTK garbage collector (to clean up noise on the screen interior)
3. VTK chromaclean (to soften the chroma channels just a bit)
4. dvmatte pro
5. dvmatte match (totally optional)
6. dvmatte wrap (again, totally optional)

If you want to use dvmatte match or dvmatte wrap after dvmatte pro, you want to make sure you have the Blend > Amount set to 0. That's a bummer, because Blend adds a lot of fine detail. So what I usually do is apply everything up to dvmatte pro, and then set the View in dvmp to "background with blend." Then I duplicate the whole deal (the clip or the layer, either way) and lay it on top of itself. On the top copy, I set Blend > Amount in dvmp to 0, and then apply match or wrap. You'll get the benefit of Blend, but still be able to use match and wrap.

It sounds more confusing than it is -- I'll do a screencast soon. :)

Anthony Torres February 2nd, 2008 07:54 PM

Ben- What is VTK Chromaclean
 
Ben,

What is VTK garbage collector and chromaclean? Where do you get it? Google and Dogpile aren't returning any info.

Also- any idea on the source of probs with Final Cut 6 and dvMattePro3 as per my other posts on this thread? DVMP doesn't return the same problems in Motion 3. It opens and renders in Motion 3.

I'm want to purchase it, but the Final Cut Pro problem is a problem. Any suggestions?
Thanks, Anthony Torres

Ben Syverson February 3rd, 2008 02:03 AM

Anthony, this is not a general issue with FCP 6 and dvmp 3. I'm not sure why you're having problems, but I'll send you a PM first thing tomorrow with the latest build to see if that fixes anything.

The VTK (Video Toolkit) is a suite of plugins I'm releasing through dvGarage -- it's not up on the site now, but it will be shortly.

Les Caudle February 3rd, 2008 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben Syverson (Post 783055)
In my last post I mentioned wanting to be at 70% RGB -- I should have been more specific. What you really want is to be at:
R: 0% G: 70% B: 0%

In fact, 80% may be a better target unless you have tons of highlight detail (read: blonde hair) to deal with.

The shot that I used to compare HDV and HDMI had a widely ranging background, with a midpoint somewhere around:
R: 24% G: 65% B: 38%

...which means that there's only an average of around 34% difference between the green channel and the R&B channels. The more we can increase this distance, the better, because more difference translates directly to more subtle edges and lower the noise in our matte.

This is where I think the Rosco Chroma Green gels will be really helpful, by knocking down the R&B output of your screen lights so that your screen has no choice but to bounce green light back to you. You'll never get to 0% in R&B, but you should feel proud if you can get to:
R: 10% G: 70-80% B: 10%

If you can get that level pretty evenly across your screen, you should be able to make a simply incredible composite.

Ben - if you do find the time to make a 'screencast' (would that mean using Snapz Pro to capture screen and audio to a mov?) - It would be great if you could also demonstrate using scopes and any appropriate tools to get the best lighting and color on the screen screen.

I purchased those same green filters, so I'm trying to get the best setup as possible.

BTW - I make my living on the 'dark side' of the Apple/Micosoft universe using the C# and Microsoft's SQL Server database. About 20 years ago, I used to code for the Mac. So - in regards to my option-click suggestion, I understand entirely how making a seeming small change can involve a whole lot of programming time. I have to explain that to my clients all the time.

Anthony Torres February 9th, 2008 07:39 PM

Is Newer Build avail. for Purchase?
 
Ben,

Hey! I'll be buying DVMP3 this week. Just curious if the download will be the latest build, or if I should contact you for the build after purchase?

Whatever's easiest.
Best, Anthony Torres

Les Caudle February 14th, 2008 09:07 PM

dvMatte Pro not working on MacPro with 8800GT?
 
Ben - I just moved from an old Mac Pro with the lowest video card to the new Mac Pro with an 8800GT.

I sucked in all of my old files and settings.

However, when I open FCP 6.0.2, I get a red screen in the viewer that says:

Unable to load effect

dvMatte Pro.

I can see the normal dialogs in the filters tab for dvMatte Pro.

How can I resolve this? I tried re-installing dvMatte Pro.

Les Caudle February 15th, 2008 10:29 PM

Ben - I re-installed FCP 6 - and now dvMatte Pro 3 seems to work now in FCP.

Will test more tomorrow and in Motion.

Sorry - thought it was the new 8800GT video card that was the problem.

Les Caudle February 25th, 2008 09:59 PM

Ben - still on 10.5.1 - can't wait until 10.5.2 and the graphics upgrade for the 8800GT. I bet it will really speed things up!

Out of curiosity, what is your render time for 1920x1080 24p with screenFix and dvMatte Pro 3 with all the latest Apple updates?

Is this different in FCP as opposed to Motion (which is preferred to render in?)

But - even as things are, I'm getting great results from dvMatte Pro 3.

I found two things really helped.

1. Lock the focus on the HV20 so that the 'screen only' shot is focused the same as the shot with the 'talent' in front of the screen. The 'screenFix' plug-in works amazingly well if the 'screen only' is shot this way.

2. A hair light from back and above seems to really help with spill from the lights - and make working with even blond hair against a green screen even better.

---
I'm very happy! Incredible that I'm getting such great results while I'm not even starting to tap the potential of your plug-in (as I've yet to make very many adjustments to really fine-tune it).

Ben Syverson February 28th, 2008 02:35 PM

Great to hear the plugin is working for ya, Les!

Render time will vary based on the graphics card, so it's hard to make useful comparisons that way -- also, render time will be slower than the FPS/responsiveness you get in Motion, since rendering to a file involves doing a readback from video ram, which is slower than simply sending the dvmatte'd footage to the display.

In terms of render quality, there is 0 difference between FCP and Motion.

Also, about blonde hair against green: this is the one case where you might want to come down on the screen lights slightly. I've gotten good results with the screen level at 60-70% (as opposed to 90%) when keying blonde hair...

Hope this helps!

Les Caudle February 29th, 2008 04:33 PM

Ben - let me know what you thought of that video I sent you. Almost no work involved when good still of green screen using your included ScreenFix plug-in, but I've got a lot to learn to fully use dvMatte Pro!

So, I know how to but a single background into dvMatte Pro. That works great.

But, how do I put multiple backgrounds into a single video with dvMatte Pro?

Les Caudle March 11th, 2008 06:28 PM

Ben - I'd still like some advise on the best way to use dvMatte Pro 3 with multiple backgrounds in the same clip (all shot on same green screen, different backgrounds to replace the green screen).

My guess is that when I copy the background to dvMatte Pro's plug-in config - it uses the loaded background to decide how to make the edges more realistic.

If I just had a background on another video track, would it be able to do the same thing - use the background video track?

If not, how can I set it up so that if I have several backgrounds, that dvMatte Pro will be able to do its magic taking into account each new background?


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