This is the gripe I have with AVCHD - The standard dictates that manufacturers COULD go up to 24mbps but they rarely go past 15 or in this case 17mbps

HDV meanwhile might be seen as an older and perhaps inferior codec but it does record at 25mbps

Canon has them up on their site: http://www.usa.canon.com/consumer/co...categoryid=173

They have HDMI via a mini-HDMI connector. Manual focus, 24p, 30p, and Cinema gamma settings just like the HV20. Canon continues to impress.

But will the image quality be improved in these new AVCHD models or be the same as the HG10?
Currently the HG10 is a step behind the HV20 because of the AVCHD compression- wonder if any improvements have been made with these 2nd gen cameras?
The HG10 is very good but not as good (sharp & motion handling) as the HV20.

No way to really know that until you can get 'em side by side.

Can't determine this from numbers or specs; it's all in the image and these aren't shipping yet.

I played with both cameras today at CES. Yes, the internal 16gb of memory is the only difference between the two models.

As you guys have suggested, the controls are very similar to the HV20 and I would imagine the manual focus cell phone trick would work but I didn't happen to bring a memory card with me to try it out. The joystick works just the same, press it to bring up mic and exposure controls. The Function button is on the LCD, as you can see in the pics, and you have all the same menu options and the interface is like the one on the HV20 and almost every other Canon consumer camera for the past couple of years.

The new LCD was noticeably clearer. The image quality was nice too. 24P looked a little funny though, I don't know if it was the new LCD, AVCHD compression, or both. I couldn't put my finger on it but it was just different looking from the 24P mode on my HV20. The image looked great though.

Also, it was TINY!!! Seems like a very convenient camera for travelers and I could just imagine it put together as a small 35mm adapter configuration.

I did see some footage on some LCD screens for the booth demo. The quality was good, normal 1080i HD 60i stuff. I wish I could have stayed to watch the demo again, I arrived when it was playing the last clip, but I promised my brother that we would stop by some of his booths over at the Sands and Venetian convention areas today.

Overall, I was sold up until I read that they were AVCHD cameras. I know the format's had some first generation blues as far as post and export goes, but I don't know, 24P and flash recording in a $1,000 to $1,100 package may be too much to pass up come April.

Jack:

How about manual focus. How does one manually focus the camera ?

You know, I honestly didn't have much time with it, crowd was breathing down my neck. But I think, not 100%, that when I was scrolling through the joystick menu, the focus was unfortuantely the with the exposure and mic settings like on the HG10 versus the little wheel on the HV20. =(

This may not be so bad if you're using a 35mm adapter, all you do is set the focus once for the camera's part, but I can see where rack focusing could be a problem when using the camera alone.

The fact with manual focus is that the AF and IAF are so good you rarely need to adjust the focus wheel, usually you just have to hit manual focus to lock the focus. At least I find this to be true for what I do and I'd imagine it to be true for most shots. Sometimes the camera can't find focus on what you want so you do have to dial it in and the thumb wheel is really nice for that.

I think for the intended customer having less buttons is better and it's going to make the camera cost less to manufacture.

The major questions as others have asked is how good are the sensor/lens and compression.

.
 

i hope you can fix the shutter speed on these

With the 35mm adapter, manual focus is important. When you have the adapter on, and your prime lens isn't focus, the HV20 will hunt. So in the middle of a rack focus, if you happen to leave IAF on, it will start searching. Its all workable, but in configuration I shoot the HV20 (upside down), the LCD is on other side of camera, and it gets real confusing--- of course so is focus wheel on HV20.... An independent focus wheel, even the tiny one on the HV20 is better for those purposes.

Don't get me wrong, you can switch to manual focus. It's just that you have to use the joystick to adjust the focus instead of having the little wheel there.

Yes, just like all other consumer Canon camcorders, there is a Tv (shutter priority) mode plus Exposure lock, so yes you can set a specific shutter speed. Works just like the HV20 and HV30 in this regard.

Thinking about it, that might even be better in terms of adapter, if you can lock it in manual, set it, and forget it, you don't have issue of unintentional bump of the roller...

The dial was nice on the HV20/30 because you can adjust focus and not bump around the camcorder.

With the joystick controlling focus, I imagine that unless the camera is locked down on a tripod, if you'll transfer the pushing of the joystick to the image? Also how fine of adjustments can you make vs the dial on the HV20/30?

I wonder if you can control focus with the supplied remote?
Bob C

John:

With HV20, in "TV" mode you can set shutter speed. Then turn on exposure and adjust other variables by slider. Unfortunately Camera chooses priority over aperature or gain, but users have been trying to lock out gain using various tricks.

Cine mode is worse in that you have no direct control of either aperature or shutter speed, but there are tricks there too....

I am assuming these new cameras along with HV30 are set up the same.

Rec / pause, photo and zoom: yes. Focus: no.

HF10 vs. HG10?
 

How big of a difference is the 1920x1080 (HF10) vs. the 1440x1080 (HG10)? I got the HG10 a week or so ago and could still return it if necessary. My real question is, how is the 1440x1080 that the HG10 outputs manipulated to look good on my 16x9 screen? Is 1440x1080 harder to edit than 1920x1080 b/c the software needs to do various aspect ratio conversions? For example if I want to convert to a 720x480i MPEG-2 file is it harder or easier to go from a 1440x1080 source vs. 1 1920x1080 source?

TIA

I wouldn't return it- there's probably a negligible difference if any....I believe some HD codecs also upscale the 1440 footage up to 1920 anyway.
I think the real question is do these newer cameras improve on the already good quality of the HG10.

Some pictures and a short video of the camera from CES http://www.engadget.com/2008/01/08/v...rder-hands-on/

Do these not have a standard viewfinder -- just the larger LCD screen?

That's right, Paul. Just the flip-out LCD only. No viewfinder in the traditional sense.

Has anyone heard or seen if these will have zebras like the HV20?

Wow, just can't live without a viewfinder here in the desert sun, even the tiny one one the HV20 is useable (and I don't need reading glasses with the viewfinder.) Guess I'm sticking with the HV20 for another year...

John F
LV, NV

I saw HF10 has 2 SD slots on a clip shot on CES.
I am not sure about that, is that possible?

Each of these new Canon flash-based camcorders (three models in the FS series, two models in the HF series) have *one* card slot. Attached is a photo of the HF10 card slot (click to see it big). Hope this helps,

Are there any specific requirements for the SD cards for use in the HF10/100?

I emailed Canon support and got a non-specific answer -- "SD or SDHC memory cards may be used in the HF10."

The specific answer is SDHC only. I tried a Sandisk 2GB Ultra II SD card in an HF10 yesterday and the camcorder would not recognize it. It must be an SDHC Class 4 or Class 6 card... see attached pic... a Class 2 card will not be fast enough.

Well.. That is good enough, thanks!

I would perfer the HF100, cause the Transcend 8 GB class6 SDHC would only cost less than 45 USD in China, and by paying around 100 USD you can get a 16 GB SDHC card.

It is a little shame that canon did not put a double SD slot in their flash memory camcorder,but I assume some of the manufacters will bring us multi memory slots camcorder in the future.

Some new hands-on HF10 photos here: http://www.dvinfo.net/gallery/browseimages.php?c=52

Zebras?
 

Hey Chris,

Does this thing have Zebras like the HV20?

Don't know for sure, Paul, but I'll find out tomorrow.

Thanks Chris!
Can't wait for your update and review.

Sorry for the delay Paul but Canon USA has confirmed for me that the VIXIA HF series camcorders do *not* have zebras. And that's a drag.

There should be a law that all but the cheapest cams have:

* Manual control of exposure, shutter, iris and gain
* 24p and 30p. 60p for the overachievers
* Focus ring
* External mic input and manual gain control
* Quick access of all manual features

Some of the cams are oh, so close. But none of the high-end consumer cams at CES had it all...

Hear, hear! A camcorder buyer bill of rights, as it were. I'll sign that petition.

What a contrast from some other technologies, such as those used in the home. Many technical advancements get written into building codes as mandatory. For instance, if you remodel an old bathroom, you'll be required to install a ground-fault interrupter, a single-handle temperature-controlled shower valve, and a 1.6 gallon (soon to be 1.3 gallon) toilet.

I guess we're lucky that electronic products are not so heavily regulated, because advancements would probably come slower. But it still puzzles me why camcorder manufacturers tend to move in packs, as far as the features they offer (and often in the direction of 'dumbing down'). Is price competition really so severe that adding a $25 feature to distinguish one's product from the others will cost too much in market share?

Or to express the paradox in a different way, why do TV/DVD remotes have so many function buttons that most owners never learn to use them all ... yet we don't get a similar proliferation of functional controls in camcorders?

No Zebras???
 

That stinks....I was hoping that this would be a tapeless HV20!

I don't really want camcorders to be regulated. I just wish that manufactures would add the features to their top consumer models that would make them worthy of being top consumer models.

I agree -- very disappointing. I'll probably go for the HV30 -- maybe even an HV20 on closeout. I'm really tired of tape!

The rep at CES mentioned that HV20 prices could be aggressive as they close out inventory. If you don't need 30p or the black paint job, a closeout HV20 could be sweet...