HG10- Actual 1440X1080 vs advertised 1920X1080
 

I borrowed the HG10 and was surprised to find, despite Canon's website proclamation of 1920X1080 on the hard drive, that in reality it recorded 1440X1080.

Does anyone have an explanation of this? I've never seen this 'hanky panky' with Canon.

You're referring to their bullet point "Full HD onto a 40GB Hard Disk Drive" near the bottom of this page:

http://www.usa.canon.com/consumer/co...&modelid=15617

It's regrettable, because the HD video recorded to the drive is actually 1080 x 1440. I'll fire off an email to their video division marketing department about the error. I'm willing to bet they'll correct the oversight in due course.

All Canon consumer HD camcorders have a "Full HD" CMOS sensor but only two of them -- the recently announced VIXIA HF10 and HF100 -- offer the option to record 1920 x 1080 video.

Thanks for pointing this out.

Note the distinction made between "Full HD" and "1920x1080" at the bottom of Canon USA's web page for the VIXIA HF10 (same for HF100): http://www.usa.canon.com/consumer/co...&modelid=16186

Chris, yes, I did notice that difference in wording. In fact I spent 40 minutes on the phone with Canon tech support to try to resolve this. The tech said he was sure that it did output 1920X1080 via the HDMI port.

I told him that made no sense since the file that existed on the drive was only 1440 and therefore output via HDMI couldn't 'extrapolate' information that wasn't there. He agreed with the logic.

After about 30 minutes of 'conferencing' he came back and said they were all confused now. Bottom line is that the cam does indeed record only 1440X1080.

But it might interpolate or double pixels to output 1920. So technically, it would be putting out 1920x1080.

And as you pointed out, that doesn't mean that the images were recorded at 1920 or that the HDMI output has full 1920 quality.

That's true Jon, but even there I doubt that Canon has a special processor between the drive and the HDMI output that does that extrapolation. I'd be willing to bet that the HDMI output is nothing more than 1440X1080 just as it is on the drive.

Note the CEA's EDID v3 does not include 1440x1080p as a standard resolution. EDID is used in HDMI to communicate the media/monitor configuration.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extende..._3_data_format

My guess is that 1920x1080p is used over the link to maximize compatibility, though it probably uses pixel replication to keep costs down.

Just a guess though...

As I understand it (and I can be completely wrong) is that if you take the HDMI out 'live', meaning as things are happening, to your computer, then that signal is 1920 x 1080. Once you record it to hard drive, then the signal coming out of HDMI is the compressed 1440 x 1080 AVCHD.

'Live taping' to computer via HDMI is 1920 x 1080

Recorded video in AVCHD to computer via HDMI is 1440 x 1080

Doug, keep in mind that unlike the HDV format, AVCHD has no 1440 horizontal restriction. The AVCHD format does allow the full 1920X1080 resolution in its specs. In fact a number of upcoming cams (including Canon, Sony and Panasonic) will allow 1920X1080 recording on to the SDHC card or hard drive.

With that said you may correct about the live picture out via HDMI on the HG1. However, the very misleading part of this is that the Canon literature clearly states that the cam delivers 1920X1080 ON the hard drive. That's quite a bit different than saying 1920X1080 'live' out of the HDMI port.

Well, not exactly, no. The Canon literature clearly states that the cam delivers "Full HD onto a 40GB Hard Disk Drive" and you (and me and many other people) are interpreting that to mean 1920x1080 because that's what we've come to think of as Full HD when we see that term. Canon seems to be interpreting the term Full HD differently. Apparently they're thinking of it as *all* flavors of 1080. I agree with you that it is very misleading and quite confusing, but let's be clear that they are *not* actually saying that it "delivers 1920x1080 on the hard drive."

What this is really about, is how they're defining the term "Full HD." This is where Canon has made a mistake in defining it differently than how the rest of the industry (including us) have come to think of that term, as representing nothing less than 1920x1080. In the long run it's all marketing anyway.

Chris, I too thought what you stated, but here is the paragraph directly from the Canon website that clearly states it delivers 1920X1080 to the hard drive. When I pointed this out yesterday to the Canon rep, he too was at a loss to explain:

"The HG10 captures 1920 x 1080 High Definition resolution video onto a 40GB hard disk drive. A convenient format for anyone who wants to transfer video to a computer for viewing, editing or sharing, it also makes your life easier as you never have to worry about not carrying around enough recording media with you as you shoot your future memories. In LP mode, you'll be able to record up to 15 hours of video. Even when shooting in super high quality mode, five-and-a-half hours of footage is yours without taking a break to change tapes or DVDs."

Yes Ken. I read that some time back but couldn't find it again. Now that you mentioned it, I looked again more thoroughly.
If one clicks the 'Features' tab and then the 'NEXT' button on the bottom it should bring you to here: http://www.usa.canon.com/consumer/co...delFeaturesAct where it clearly states what Ken quoted. Now I am very confused.

Pascal

Note: You must click the next button

Is everyone here of the opinion that the HG10 is in fact 1440 x 1080. Or is it really 1920 x 1080 as stated by Canon and that some of the initial reviews undertaken last year, were mislead by the actual application they were using to test it. One thing for sure is the effective pixels in the sensor in HD Movie mode is 1920 x 1080.

In STILL mode the effective pixels are 1920 x 1440. Could this be confusing some people? the 1440 horizontal pixels in STILL mode. I did a quick google and got this on cnet from a couple of weeks ago.
Pascal

Wow. Sure enough, there it is. They need to correct that error a.s.a.p.

Thanks for pointing this out,

Pascal, no this is without a doubt a 1440 unit. I put two clips into ULead Studio 11+, one from a Panasonic SD5 and the other a Canon HG10. Ulead and Windows Media player both reported the SD5 as 1920X1080 and the HG10 as 1440X1080. There is no question this is accurate and the website is wrong.

Chris, no problem, I just wanted to be sure that others aren't misled as I was. I do believe the upcoming HF10 will be a true 1920X1080 unit.

Both of the Canon consumer HD flash memory camcorders -- the VIXIA HF10 and HF100 -- offer the option to record 1920x1080. I sent an email to Canon USA about your discovery of the error on their HG10 product page, and they replied promptly telling me that they're aware of the issue and have submitted a change request to the IT department that handles their web site. Expect to see it corrected soon.

Good news for future buyers, but probably somewhat late for buyers that expected this unit to deliver a full 1920X1080. Thanks for your efforts on this Chris.

I believe another thing that's come to light in tests I've been doing is that although the Panasonic SD5 is a 1920X1080 camcorder, its pixel shift technology is not delivering a true 1920X1080. It looks like there's a lot of 'interpolation' that's going on. In fact, I see more detail in clips from the Canon HG10 than I do from the Panny SD5.

This stuff can make you tear your hair out. :)

The HG10 does have nearly 3Mbps more than the SD5. At least the newer camcorders from Panasonic, Canon and Sony have the same resolution and bit rate.

Paulo, it might not be a big deal, but I think the Sony & Panasonic only does 16Mbps. The Canons will do 17Mbps. But I wonder if the difference I'm seeing between the HG10 and the SD5 is more attributable to the pixel shift technology of the SD5 and what is perhaps not a 'true' 1920X1080. Of course the Canon may simply have superior processing.

It might well be that all 1920X1080 resolutions are not created equal. Do you begin to see why you can tear your hair out over these things. Once again specs don't seem to mean a whole lot.

The way I understand it is the Digic DV processor receives 1920 x 1080 from the sensor. The processor sends 1920 x 1080 out the HDMI port. The processor also converts (squishes, compresses or whatever) to a 1440 x 1080 format to record to the hard drive. I doubt that they actually discard the missing 480 vertical lines information.

Is this what most people think happens?

If the sensor does not in fact use the full 1920 lines in movie mode, then there are several more errors all over the Canon websites.

In any case the finished product is what counts. And I beleive that the HG10 has the best finished product of all the AVCHD cameras out there (at the moment), and better than a lot of HD DV camera. This is probably down to Canon's extensive experience with still cameras and their processors, lens and shutters.

Even though bit rate alone does not make a good finished product, the fact that the HG10 records at 15Mb/s (thats almost 2MB per second) makes you wonder the quality that AVCHD will produce at 24Mb/s. I feel when companies start going over 20Mb/s in consumer cameras, it will put the final nail in the coffin for tape driven consumer cameras.

Then Chris will have to make four or five new sections here in the AVCHD forums.

Regards
Pascal

BTW: I have ordered a HG10 now. And should have it here on Monday.

Pascal

Pascal, I think you might be correct that the only way you can see 1920X1080 is 'live' out the HDMI port. When I said this is 'without a doubt a 1440X1080 camcorder", I meant in terms of the files it creates within the cam and available for export. It really does the vast percentage of videographers no good to only allow 1920 via the live HDMI port. If you can only capture a full 1920X1080 via the HDMI port and an auxilliary recording unit connected via HDMI, in my mind it defeats the purpose of having a small one-piece camcorder.

I've yet to see anyone post that they have actually even captured a full 1920X1080 from the HG10 via the HDMI port to a secondary drive. So even that remains questionable. I do believe the sensor is capturing a full 1920X1080, but it gets downrezzed to 1440X1080 in any file format within the camera. This is no different than what happens in a typical Canon HDV camcorder like the HV10 or HV20.

With that said, I do agree the HG10 produces the best picture of any AVCHD camcorder that I've seen. But it can not produce a 1920X1080 file internally. That would mean that the camera does indeed discard the extra 440 pixels of information as it writes to the hard drive. At least that would be what makes sense to me. If you go from 1920 to 1440, obviously that extra information gets lost.

Well...I know it's probably already been mentioned...but if the HG10 acts like the HV20....then when it records to the hard drive it stores the footage as 1440x1080. But coming out the HDMI "from" the hard drive it will up-rez that footage to 1920x1080. But when coming out "live" from the HDMI port it bypasses the AVCHD codec and is at 1920x1080.

It's the live footage that is in question...was it shrunk to 1440x1080 and then resized to 1920x1080 by the DSP? People speculate one way or the other...but that information is still unknown.... My idea is this....since the internals of the upcoming cams are similar to these cams...maybe someone with an HF10/100 can shoot some footage out its HDMI "live' along with an HG10/v20 and analyze both footage. The HF10/100 has no reason to downsize its image to 1440x1080...so that means its image should be pure 1920x1080. Size them up, analyze them and maybe that would answer the above question...just an idea.

The HG10 records in anamorphic widescreen, just like all the HDV cams. The sensor works just like the HV20...full HD @ 1920x1080. But, when it gets recorded, it is anamorphic 1440x1080.

Keep in mind that the HF10/100 also records 1440x1080. Actually these cameras offer several recording modes and all but one are 1440x1080. Only the highest bitrate (at 17mbps), called FXP mode, is 1920x1080.

This been going on ever since the HV10 got released and I don’t think it should be compared to what Panasonic does because to some reviews I’ve read, the SD5 deals with motion better than the 1920x1080 mode of the Sanyo HD1000 which has nearly the same bit rate. JVC on the other hand is going to have a bigger problem than Canon with people thinking that it's newest HD camcorders records to 1920x1080 60p.

By today’s standards, the HG10 is getting old anyway and their newer camcorders are much better.

That's correct Guy. The HG10 is really no different in terms of resolution and how it records & outputs than the HV10 or HV20. The upcoming HF series will be true 1920X1080.

But the thing I've learned about is that there appears to be more true resolvable resolution in the HG10 than the SD5, even though the SD5 is rated at 1920. I think there's a whole lot of 'interpolation' going on in the SD5 and it's not even close to showing a true 1920X1080. That's just my opinion based on what I see on a 60" Pioneer Kuro plasma with both cams.

Oh ok...I overlooked that. Thanks.

The two new Canons have great promise, but by their specification and price seem to be on the lower end of a new range of AVCHD SD cams to come. They have no viewfinder (a must for me and others). Also I have not seen any of the output from the HF10 or HF100. Also they are not available for two months.

So IMO 'by today's standards' the HG10 is the best AVCHD camera available as of Febuary 2008

Pascal

Of course the dark horse in this race could be the new Sonys with combo hard drive and chip HD recording. They will do a full 1920X1080 recording just like the HF10 and HF100. Based on recent history however, it seems that Canon has been trumping Sony on picture quality in the consumer camcorder arena.

Just to let everyone know that Canon has now corrected their HG10 website to show that the HG10 records "HD" to the hard drive. They have dropped the 1920X1080 claim.

Yes Ken they have dropped it from that part. But they still claim:

'The HG10 captures 1920x1080 High Definition video through its Canon designed and manufactured CMOS image sensor, similar to the CMOS image sensors in Canon's EOS Series Digital SLR cameras.'

Is there a real difference between 'capture' and 'record' ?

Without refering to a dictionary, to me, to capture would be to get something and keep it or hold on to it. (ie record)

Pascal

Their choice of terms has very strong potential to confuse some folks, but in the strictest sense of the word, they are right: the CMOS sensor "captures" light coming in from the lens at 1920 x 1080. That much is true. After processing it is then recorded to the drive at 1440 x 1080.

Yes there is a difference between "capture" vs. "record" but I wish they would have used a different term than capture.

Glad to see some changes have been made on their site -- proof that they are watching our site.

Now that the corrections have been made to the Canon website, may I suggest that Chris lock this thread before the model trumpeting begins anew?

Thanks for the suggestion. Done.