Thanks for the clarification, Dave. Apparently the pro-oriented HSC1U also. I've learned something today!

Actually, I was incorrect about the SD5 - I remembered the SD5 does not even have a 24P mode, that was added in the SD9.

It's a shame Canon doesn't do this as well. It's a good idea for the cameras to add pulldown for playback through the video port, but there's no reason for pulldown in the file - it just adds extra steps to the editing flow.

Questions:

Since there is no VF -- can you really see the image and menus when you are in bright sunlight?

There are, on another thread, reports that the Canon color in AWB or in any of the Fixed Settings WB not only is not accurate -- it is very erratic. Some claim the sky can go magenta. Do you see this? Especially do find you can trust the many Fixed settings.

One of the disadvantages of zebra is it covers highlites (100IRE) and so you can't see the actual amount of detail remaining in the highlight. So not having a zebra isn't a killer for me. Early clipping in the LCD sounds like it doesn't let you see remaining detail either. So, in a way it works like zebra.

Thus, if you adjust exposure using the white clipping as though it were zebra and adjust so only tiny areas clip -- when you view the video do you get better highlights? It sounds as though you do. Which is nice.

Have you checked if the Canon's max IRE is 100 or 105 to 110?

What about deep shadow areas? Do they look in the LCD darker than they actually are?

Yes, you can. I'd much prefer a viewfinder for bright outdoor situations, but although a bit washed out, I was able to see the viewfinder well enough in direct sunlight to get the job done.

I haven't shot enough with the camera to generalize about color rendition, but it handled a space shuttle launch very nicely in default auto. No special settings. I'll eventually post that video when I get some free time, (maybe!) later next week, along with a time lapse of the rollback of the launch pad's Rotating Service Structure the night before launch, although that one did suffer a bit from classic autofocus hunting.

BTW, this is one of those situations where it was not possible for me to bring the "big iron" and my choice was between no shot at all and an inexpensive, limited-adjustment, highly compressed pocket cam. HDNet won't be beating a path to my door for that footage, but it is mine and I'll always have it. Glad that little camera fit in my flight suit pocket!

Can't squeeze very much gear into a T-38 Talon, eh?

Pete: I hope you can post that footage somewhere and soon. I would love to see it.

Steve: About no VF...This is my biggest complaint about this camera (and yet I have a second HF100 coming in today so I don't get stuck shooting B roll with a SD MiniDV again). Although kicking up the brightness of the screen (a button under the fold out LCD alternates between normal and bright) lets me kinda see the image in bright sunlight and daylight, I need to use a "hood" to properly evaluate exposure and focus when setting up a scene.

I use either the Cinetactics Screen Hoodie in the picture in a previous post, or the Hoodman 300 with magnifier and with either I use the normal setting on the LCD and shield the hood as best I can, getting face as close as presbyopia (difficulty focusing close up) and trifocals will let me.

It is workable that way, in fairness the VF on the HV20 being so tiny and non tiltable was not signifcantly better for me and I wound up using the LCD and a hood on that one.

Nope. The great cameras that the XLs are, they just don't fit in your pocket, either.

Amazing how "home" camcorders that used to have 2/3-inch CRTs are now have VFs so tiny they are nearly unuseable -- so maybe their loss is not a real loss. The Sony SR has a tiltable VF -- but the menu system doesn't show in the VF!!!!

Moreover, without a proper eyecup, those of us with glasses have a hard time blocking light from entering.

The hoods may work, but you've got to remove the hood to close the LCD.

PS: To work with my varifocals I really need at least a 3-inch LCD. Don't the Japanese understand the word BOOMERS?

Steve, at least with the SR you do have a choice between a VF and an LCD. Couple that with the fact that the LCD on the Sony is the largest and highest resolution availalbe, and you have the best of what is currently availalbe in the consumer world.

I don't own one, but my impression from using one was that the contrast seemed to be stretched on both ends, so dark shadows (no relation to the 1960's soap opera) might tend to look completely black. To be fair, lots of other consumer camcorders pump up the contrast in the LCD, including my current Panasonic SD DV camera, which has a much more natural image in the viewfinder than on the LCD.

I suppose the method you suggest for judging exposure would work, especially after you have a feel for how much the display tends to clip, but it may be harder to use in bright sunlight than zebra stripes.

I find the SR zebra at 100 covers an area so one can't see what's really happening in the highlight area. Turning it off let me adjust exposure so I could still see some detail in the highlight. Don't really need zebra to signal me. If I'm in a hurry -- AE works fine.

And Steve, it's precisely that 'in a hurry' point that made me favor a cam like this for its more accurate 'in a hurry' adjustments. I rarely use other camera equipment in a hurry, but this fun cam I do. But when I have time, I still like the zebras...still the most accurate way to avoid overexposure. You just can't rely on LCDs or VFs for this. :)

But don't you think if we follow Zebra 100% we get very dark picture? At 70% in HD7 picture look ok, but still I set all controls my self, some time I noticed auto presets gives fantastic result, my this comment regarding to HD7.

Kaushik

I allow zebra just appearing on white object but not on anything else especially a colour like yellow. IF you have zebra on in auto you will see that the SR11/12 will allow zebras on white but I have never seen on any other colour so I follow the same approach and it has worked well. This is also true for my FX1 it must be the way that Sony have set these up to get the most out of the camera. IF zebras don't appear on white then the scene is often too dark. This is what one would expect with white just clipping at 100ire.

Ron Evans

With SD and small screens a bit of burned-out highlights was fine. Anyone shooting for film or HD knows when blown-up one really doesn't want to see burn-out -- even on whites. An expensive camera with gamma and knee settings enables one to prevent burn-out even in AE. The Canon, of course, has just such a Cine gamma option that prevents burn-out. All the test pix show whites having detail. So once Cine is turned-on, I don't need a zebra.

With Cine off, for manual shooting, one simply looks at the LCD. With any camera one quickly learns to balance the pix. For example, if you know the screen clips, you allow whites to go white -- but not light yellow or pale blue. (With color -- we can differentiate colors. LCDs aren't CRTs.) If the LCD doesn't clip, then you don't allow even white to lose detail.

Bottom-line, if a guy has a white shirt -- I want to see the creases, not a big white area, on playback.

If shadows go too dark -- you know scene latitude is wider than the camera can capture. Increasing exposing to prevent this at the cost of burned highlights is not the answer. If your camera doesn't offer Black Stretch, either decrease scene contrast or live with it.

It all depends on what your subject is. If your subject is precisely what's over-exposed, then you shouldn't care if the rest of the video is on the dark side. Look at any broadcast material and you'll find background and ancillary parts of the scene can be either very dark or overexposed depending on what the subject is supposed to be. Video hasn't reached the point where everything can be exposed perfectly.

But the bottom line is that zebras are a necessity if you're concerned about exposing white areas properly. No pro would go without them and that's why no professional camera is lacking them.

Steve I was making a particular comment about the Sony zebras. With the zebra just appearing on white for the Sony cams I have, the whites are correctly exposed, creases in the fabric and all. The point I was making was that Sony likely have the 100% zebra set a little lower for this very reason as witnessed by viewing the zebras in auto. In other words I think that 100% zebra on these cams is more like 95% in reality allowing the zebras to just show and yet correctly expose the scene. Having used this approach for years on these prosumer Sony's they all work the same way and would lead to an underexposed scene if one doesn't do this.

Ron Evans

The reason is that Sony pro cameras record up to 108IRE. So you are correct, but not because the zebra's at 95 but because it is 100 and there remains 8IRE headroom. So I agree with you completely. Although, if you as NLE that converts YUV to RGB -- that headroom is clipped away. That's why I don't like Premiere.

Bottom-line, anyone who looks can see clipping whether there is zebra on top of it or not. The zebra adds nothing nothing except to obscure seeing the what detail is left.

PS: Zebra is from the days of CRT VFs where the CRT offered so much headroom one needed to be TOLD where 100IRE was. If you go back to the Sony Porta-Pak days as I do -- you realize that what we worried about then is not what we worry about now. Just as when I worked for a recording studio in the very early `60's and cut LPs -- today in the digital world we don't use a microscope to see how the "cutting" is going. :)

After a nearly half a century experience, you learn when features are mere marketing gimmicks. And, of course, zebra is useless when in AE. But, having it can make some folks think they have a "pro" camera.

Steve I wasn't being specific about 95% just indicating that the Sony will record all the detail with the zebra just showing on white. The comment about zebra on auto was to indicate that Sony expect zebra to show on white as it should if one is to get full dynamic range out of the recording. Guessing what the exposure is based on how it looks on the LCD/VF leaves you at the mercy of how the LCD/VF is set up resulting in either underexposure or over exposure. Yes I used to manage when I had cams without zebra by watching if the faces bloomed etc. Using the zebra ensures that the whites at least will be exposed at the limit and if the zebra is on any other colour it will be over exposed if that is the intended subject. I am also aware that most of the digital recording processes will record super white. I use Edius to edit and the waveform monitor does show levels above 100IRE !!!
PS My experience also goes back to the early 60's with film and audio recording and I will take every aid to getting things right that is available to me. There are lots of marketing gimmicks, like digital zoom, but zebra is not one of them.


Ron Evans

I agree that zebras may be a legacy from CRT VFs, and that LCD displays are more useful at indicating where clipping occurs, but I think zebras may once again have usefulness in the new crop of consumer camcorders that have no VF, when used in bright sunlight.

I don't yet have a video camera with no VF, but they are similar in that respect to DSLR's, which also have no electronic viewfinder. My DSLR has an image review mode that highlights overexposure, similar to zebra sripes. When I'm indoors or in lower light, I never use this mode because the LCD is very faithful about indicating where clipping occurs and the blinking black areas are annoying and make it hard to view the remaining detail. When I'm outdoors in bright sun, however, I can't reliably view the LCD for highlight detail and clipping, even with a hood, so I do use that mode, and it has helped me correct numerous bad exposures.

If, as is pretty common with AE settings, you've got some areas that are overly hot, zebras DO provide a way to quickly see where the problem areas might be, and adjust exposure or AE shift accordingly. That's what in indicator is for, to call your attention to potential trouble... you can ignore it if it's not important.

The SR11 is quite forgiving with good lattitude, but it's still nice to have an indication if there is a trouble spot. As with the CX7, I find the auto settings of the SR11 work more times than not. But I know the options are there if I need them.

I suppose the best way to explain it is that it's nice to have a camera that hits the mark and produces video that requires little or no tweaking to look "right". It's nice to have the indicators for backup (just as more manual control wouldn't hurt), but it is ALSO nice to know that what you're shooting is actually what you'll get when all is said and done. IMO this is what sets the SR11 apart, and as I think others have noted it makes it a FUN camera to shoot.

I'd rather have a camera that's smart enought to get most of the necessary settings right or close to it so I can focus on framing and getting the shot. I'd use the analogy of the modern day fighter pilot - the plane enhances the capabilities of the pilot by being smart enough to take care of many of the functions automatically. Some planes couldn't even fly at all without the "smart" fly by wire systems correcting faster than a human ever could.

You are correct Dave! The zebras are necessary for accurate exposure of highlights and that's why all pro and prosumer cameras have it...not to just to take up space. All the Canon prosumer cams have it as do all Sonys as well as all broadcast cams. It is the most accurate indicator of overexposure and that is simply a fact. Those that don't believe this should write to Canon as well as the other camera companies to indicate they need to 'rethink' their equipment design and stop wasting our money.

The fact is that once the exposure has been properly adjusted to avoid clipping (if that area is important), all the detail of that area shows as the zebras are dialed out with the reduced exposure. At that point the detail is most certainly not obscured by the zebras. I sure would hate to rely on how things look in an LCD (that's hard to see in the first place in bright sun!) for the most accurate exposure of highlights. ;)


You nailed it my friend.

I went out shooting with SR and HD7. Turned zebra on -- both at 100. One might think a zebra is a zebra. Nope.

The SR uses max black and max white stripes -- very annoying. No wonder I turned it off and went by the white clip on the LCD or VF. (Which works very well.)

The HD7 uses light gray and moderate white -- just as obvious even in bright sun, but far less annoying. That's why I leave zebra on with the HD7. No penalty.

Also, left-out here is that the recent generations of Sony camcorders offer a histogram. There's no point in using zebra when you can SEE your exposure by looking at the histogram.

==================

What camera are you talking about when you say this: "When I'm outdoors in bright sun, however, I can't reliably view the LCD for highlight detail and clipping, even with a hood, so I do use that mode, and it has helped me correct numerous bad exposures." WHAT MODE IS THAT? On any camera, except the Canon, you would use the VF so why are you talking about using the LCD in bright light? The only camera that you can't switch to the VF is the Canon and it doesn't offer zebra.

===================


The situation is radically different with the SR: It has both zebra and VF. BUT -- the SR has one manual DIAL that can control only one thing at a time. So if you have it set to control focus -- you are NOT going to be using zebra to tell you how to adjust exposure because you have no manual control of exposure. You are going to be running on AE, which thankfully is very very good. So good, why turn on the annoying zebra?

If you decide to assign exposure to the dial, then zebra MIGHT be of value. If you use the VF, by definition you don't have bright sun on the LCD. Your description of needing zebra because you can't see the LCD doesn't apply in this case. You can clearly see highlights going white.

But, let's assume you insist on using the LCD. OK -- now you claim you need zebra to see overexposure because you can't see the highlight detail. I agree. But, because you chose to assign the DIAL to exposure, you are running on AF. And since you've just said you can't see the LCD very well -- you must REALLY REALLY trust AF.

And, here's the gotcha. While the SR has zebra so you can monitor AE to see if it is going wrong, the SR has no PEAKING so you can't monitor focus. As I said, you must trust, but you can't varify.

=====

This whole discussion is about nothing. The Canon doesn't have zebra. The SR has an annoying zebra. The HD7 has a great zebra. The pro Sony camcorder have histograms. The new AG-HMC150 has a WFM.

Each camera has it's own LCD characteristics. Claiming you can't trust any of them is nonsense. And, each camera has different levels of AE accuracy. Moreover, cameras that clip at 100IRE can be used differently than cameras that don't clip until 108IRE. And, frankly, some people may have different skills at judging exposure. While others, who always CC every clip, may bias exposure so they will never see either clipping or zebra. Or, use a Cine gamma mode.

I really don't see how being dogmatic about zebra "in general" has much value in a thread on the HF10. The real question here, is how accurate can you control exposure with the controls on the HF10. And, I'm not sure why there were posts talking about the "better" SR because it has VF and zebra. Frankly, if one is going to promote camcorders I'll say the HD7 beats both.

And that's precisely how I normally have mine set. Yes, I can see focus going south on the rare instances in good light that occurs, so leaving the dial set to exposure works quite nicely for the vast majority of shooting situations.

From the standpoint of manual controls perhaps, from the standpoint of picture quality certainly not. In the end, at least IMO, it's all about PQ. There are many cams, regardless of how many manual controls you give them, that will not produce as good a picture as those with lesser manual controls.

Ken, that's not what Dave said. He said zebras are to call your attention to potential problem areas so you can adjust your exposure accordingly or ignore them. That's not the same thing as saying they are necessary for accurate exposure of the highlights, although they are helpful. Since you mentioned pro cams, I would use the zebra as Dave described, as a warning. But I would not use them exclusively to properly expose the highlights. I would instead expose for my subject or the scene, and make an adjustment to the knee for the highlights.

While I could use spot metering, average metering, a 18% neutral gray card or the histogram, in the end I agree with Steve (and Dave) that you can just look at the image on the LCD or viewfinder and derive your intent for exposure, just as you would use it for composition and framing. The other tools, meters and light cards are throwbacks to the days when there was no sort of preview short of a polaroid snapshot.

Totally agree. If you put no trust in the LCD you are not practicing enough with it.

If one relies purely on simplistic techniques like putting the hump into the center of the histogram, one guarantees that all whites and blacks will come out looking gray.

Sometimes the problem is information overload itself. The zebra tells you to expose it one way, the histogram another. When in doubt, I turn ALL the information OFF and just look at the overall scene. Then I can go back, switch the information back on and now it's making sense because it's describing what I see in the scene, rather than giving me bad advice on what to do with the information with an ill advised adjustment based on a zebra or histogram.

It's MY intent that matters. I'm the one who has to be satisfied. Don't be a slave to the metering tools. They are advisors only.

In my books I've tried to explain how to use a histogram -- and it is really really hard to explain. Somehow the brain has to look at the curve which is a function of the light level AND contrast AND what the iris is set to AND what you WANT the scene to look like.

It reminds me of the attempts to get computers to read X-rays. Very Hard. Yet, people with practice can just "do it." As you said, with practice is critical.

Which is we all cringe when see a post from some who buys a new camcorder and heads off to the jungle a day later. :) That's why I try to allow a month for a review.

Things I hated about the Sony last week I'm now finding ways to overcome this week. I'm sure the same thing will be true of an FX.

AHHHH... you are catching on grasshopper <wink>!

We are at an interesting time technologically speaking where with sufficient computing horsepower and proper algorithms/firm/software you can begin to at least in theory replicate the decision making process of the human brain in order to achive a desired outcome. In an attempt to stay on thread, Sony and Canon have different teams of people working on their "desired outcomes", thus there are different end results...

THAT's what we are all seeing with the face recognition and the automatic functions and all that "good" stuff. With enough CPU processing per second and sufficiently tuned software, you SHOULD be able to optimize a device far above the "average" capability of a carbon based organism (human) of "average" inteligence and skill.

The net result, at least in theory, is the average soccer mom or dad who wouldn't know a shutter from a doorknob has a teeny tiny little "expert" to compensate for any lack of knowledge or experience, and this of course should also result in an even better result for someone who has a "dangerous" amount of knowledge or better...

BUT (and this is why even the most advanced aircraft STILL require a human in SOME capacity...) there are situations and circumstances which simply fall outside the expected boundaries of the "programming", and we as humans who have taken the time to learn the art of correcting for those moments simply would feel more comfortable having manual override capability.

Sorry for sounding like a bad sci-fi-kung-fu movie here, but maybe it will help as we all struggle with progress and try to make sense of it all!

Tom, I quoted exactly Dave's comment that I agreed with. I went on further to express how I felt about zebras in general. I didn't mean to imply that Dave had said that too.

Further, I'm not claiming that anyone should be a slave to zebras or histograms, but I do not agree that a typical consumer camcorder's LCD is as accurate as zebras. LCDs in general have extremely limited contrast ratios and can't be accurately used to determine exposure in all situations. I don't go around with zebras constantly on, but when the subject happens to be predominantly white, the zebras are both useful and, IMO, more accurate than a consumer camcorder's LCD. Ultimately it is always the camera operator that determines when to abide by what the zebras are telling you. I think most people with any degree of experience are aware of that.

My post was probably confusing, sorry about that. I was referring to my digital SLR. I don't have a camcorder without a VF, so I was using the DSLR as an example of a case where exposure needs to be judged on an LCD screen, since DSLR's don't have electronic viewfinders. In this one aspect, that is, having only an LCD to judge exposure, the DSLR is similar to the HF100.

The mode I was referring to is an image review mode on the DSLR that indicates overexposure by causing the overexposed areas to alternately blink black and white -- not exactly the same as zebra stripes, but similar in intent. I was pointing out that I only use that mode in bright sun, where it is too hard to see the LCD well enough to judge the exposure from the image itself. Indoors and in dimmer lighting, I do not use the overexposure highlight mode because the blinking tends to make it hard to see the remaining detail, and I can evaluate the exposure better by just using the LCD by itself. I also bracket exposure much more when I'm outdoors for the same reason - difficulty in evaluating the exposure on the LCD.

Dave that sounds familiar. My DSLR, a Canon 5D blinks alternately black and white in the overexposed areas. I shoot RAW but still bracket my exposures, and that actually carries over into my video habits, I bracket those as well, although I very seldom get them wrong. I don't just leave the camera rolling.

On my 5D Canon DSLR, the preview screen is only available *after* you take the shot, the other times you are viewing through the lens with the optical viewfinder. Perhaps you have one of the newer DSLRs that lets you preview the shot on the LCD like a point and shoot. I haven't used the 5D in a while, but my recollection is that I can toggle the LCD preview screen to view the image without the blinking, but I could be wrong.

It has the histogram as well, and yes I do know how to use it, on the 5D and also the EX1. My Canon XH-A1 does not have a histogram. But I'll say this, with practice it's possible for anyone to recognize the cues for proper exposure without zebras or histograms, although if you have them, you should use them. And I do. The most important information comes from just looking at the LCD or viewfinder itself. On the Canon XH-A1, it's a very decent viewfinder that with practice is very easy to associate with what you will get on the larger monitor or HDTV. On the EX1 the viewfinder kind of sucks, but the LCD screen is excellent. No problem drawing parallels between that image and what I would expect on the big screen. But even on the ubiquitous HV10, which has zebras by the way, the LCD screen (with practice) is possible to "see" what it's going to look like.

I'm not against features and automation. I embrace technology. But I also embrace art, which permits breaking the rules of convention. The exposure tools are not a panacea for director's intent, which is in the eye. The cliche is that if you only use a hammer, everything will start looking like a nail.

Yes, the preview screen I was referring to (with the blinking black-and-white areas) is indeed after the shot. My camera (Olympus E510) does have the new live preview feature, but it's clumsy and I almost never use it - also, it would have the same problems in bright sunlight.

The main point I was trying to make wasn't really to compare DSLR's with video cameras, but that that even if the LCD is good enough to judge exposure in some conditions, zebra stripes still have a use in camcorders without a VF due to the fact that it can be difficult to judge the exposure on the LCD in outdoor lighting conditions. In other words, they are useful now even though the *reason* for the usefulness has changed since the days of CRT VF's. In that sense, I don't think they are just a "feel good" feature to make consumers feel like they have a pro camera.

Aside: I have actually found one nice use for the live preview feature on the E510 -- that is to tweak white balance in indoor settings to achieve certain moods. The instant visual feedback as you dial the color temperature is really nice. Of course, this can also be done in post on the raw file (or even on the JPEG), but there are already so many things to do in post that I prefer to do as much as I can in the camera.

The EnCinema 35mm Adapter for the Canon HF10 and HF100, exclusively!
http://www.vid-atlantic.com/EnCinema35.html

Ordered one. Very curious about it! Will arrive this week I hope.

It's been a couple months, is there any word on this?

Hi guys,

just arrived hf100 and i suspect there is something wrong in the cmos or maybe a dead pixel...i don't know...pls look at this little clip below:

00004.MTS

tnks
ciao

SDHC cards
 

Hi,
I'm thinking of buying the HF10, and was wondering about the importance of brand names for the flash card? Was intending of getting an Adata through ebay. Ok, or should I rather stick with the 5x more expensive ones from the shops ( SanDisk)?

Also, Stefan mentioned the wide angle isn't that wide? Any way of getting around that?

Thanks,
Petra

I am afraid which dead pixel you are talking? Your video is absolutely fine, and you should shoot some outdoor with natural light, hope you will do some shooting and will post here.

If your camera has really some problem then do write here so then other can understand.

Kaushik

Petra,

Yes, it is as simple, pay more and get more. You will get better and trusted products. I always go for higher prices tag verses lower!

And also I advice others/ friends to do same!

Kaushik

brands?
 

Ok, does anyone have experience with the following brands of SDHC cards:

Adata
Apacer
Kingston
San Disk

and how would you rate them regarding reliability?

Also, been trying to find some data on recording times, the only info I've found so far states +2 hrs but not whether that's at the lowest or highest setting :-(
Any comments appreciated.

Thanks.

Hi Petra, see my Canon VIXIA HF Series Recording Times chart about halfway
down the page at Canon VIXIA HF11 Overview by Chris Hurd and Austin Meyers