HF S1000 Cine Mode Shutter Speeds?
 

I'm shooting a fair amount on a HF S100, primarily using Cine Mode with custom effect settings of sharpness +1 and colour depth -1. Without wishing to reopen another can of worms (I also have an HV20) I arrived at these settings having spent a lot of time evaluating all the various modes and parameters when viewed on a calibrated monitor, but in my case more importantly, also on an ISF calibrated Pioneer Kuro screen.

One thing I'm not clear on, and hopefully someone can detail, is what happens to the shutter speed when using Cine Mode. I have a UK HF S100, so it shoots at 50i (or 25p) and I'd like, wherever possible, to keep the shutter speed at 1/50. I don't like smear but really don't like high shutter speeds, there's nothing that screams video at me more.

I have read that the camera tries to keep the shutter speed at 1/48 (presumably 1/50 for PAL versions), but under what circumstances could that change? The AGC limit control is disabled in Cine Mode and there's nothing to indicate whether it is being applied, whether a scene is going to be under-exposed, or whether a higher shutter speed is needed.

Thanks - and please be gentle on a humble new member. ;)

PS, before you all get excited, the title of the thread should be HF S100.

Hi Stuart,
We share the same camera as well as the same quest for an answer to this conundrum.
When I play back footage in the camera shot in Cinema mode and cycle through the on-screen data info, I can see that shots shot in 'good' exterior light show up at 1/50th. Whereas an interior shot under 'gloomy' conditions will show as 1/25th.
I tend to keep the zebras at 100% switched on at all times to get some idea of how the camera is coping, but I wish that Canon had given us the option of dealing with exposure a bit more comprehensively in Cinema Mode.
I've found that Tv mode at 1/50th with contrast at -1 gives good results for me.
I guess that you find details slightly lost in CM, hence turning sharpness to +1?

Robin - have you had it go above 1/50th? If so, did you have this happen frequently?

Graham -
No I haven't. Whatever is going on in the processing, it seems to limit at 1/50th, probably because there's no gain switched in.
I'd love to know what's really happening though - it's all very arcane!

HF S100 Cine Mode Shutter Speeds?
 

Robin, thank you for your reply.
I hadn't looked at that display, thank you for bringing it to my attention. Watching a few clips back, I'm actually seeing some strange behaviour. For example, a clip with strong back-lighting at f2.4 with 1/60s shutter, which when I zoom in slightly, changes to f2.0 1/50s. In the first instance, one would expect the camera to stick with 1/50s and open the lens more. Looking at the clips I have in the camera at the moment, including some shot in a room under normal incandescent light, I haven't found any that go down to 1/25.

Do you think the camera is adding gain in Cine Mode? There doesn't seem to be enough variation in aperture vs. shutter speed between some shots without it.

Either way, it would've been good to have this display when recording, not just on playback. It's possible that by fiddling with the exposure setting, one could have some indirect control over shutter speed too. I don't shoot a lot of low-light scenes and many of them don't really matter from a critical standpoint, so TV is fine in those instances.
Me too. I learnt very early on with the HV20 not to rely on its metering - especially in TV mode - because highlights were so often blown out, so I always have the 100% zebra switched on. This, incidentally, is another advantage of Cine Mode, the camera is far less likely to over-expose highlights even if you're not paying attention.
When I experimented, I found that the sharpness and contrast controls had subtle effects in isolation, but a significant effect when combined. In TV mode, reducing sharpness also reduced contrast to a larger degree than I expected, and I decided that was preferable to reducing contrast, which left more halos.

Just an aside here; when I first got the HF S100 I was quite disappointed by the video quality. Sure, I was using the default settings, but what stuck me was that the image looked horribly over-sharpened. I could see black halos everywhere on the Kuro, and they were really apparent on a PC too. There's a spot where I can sit that enables me to look out of the window and down the road and with the camera on the windowsill, I can see the same thing at the same size on my Kuro via the Canon. The two are very similar in Cine Mode, but TV mode looks artificial in comparison.

I don't believe there's any loss of detail in Cine Mode. I've done quite a few side-by-side comparisons with near-field and distant objects (road signs, names on vans, tiles on roofs) and the only real difference is that TV mode is over-sharpened (or, with a custom setting, sharpened). Cine Mode reminds me very much of my Canon D30, one of the early digital SLRs, which everyone thought looked "soft" but was simply not applying any sharpening.

Subjectively though, shots from Cine Mode do look a little more lively with some sharpening applied - just like the D30 in fact - but if I do that in post, in my case in Vegas, I'm also sharpening any artefacts that are introduced by the AVCHD compression (or for that matter, the transfer to Cineform). I believe that the in-camera sharpening happens before compression, so it avoids that issue and although extremely subtle, adds just a little more to the image.

The camera will definitely use gain in Cine Mode

I don't see how. If I try to shoot in a poorly lit area in Cinema mode, the camera will just underexpose and show no signs of noise, Switching to other modes will see the exposure - as well as noise levels - shooting up.

If you're using other modes, set the AGC to 0 so it won't add any gain.

This is on the Hf s100? Mine is about opposite with Agc set to 0, in TV or Aperture mode the scene will be dark, but Cinema Mode will light it up with artifacts flickering around (somewhat well disguised as "film grain").. in my experience it seems that Cinema Mode is overriding the gain control setting where as these other modes don't

Cris,
You're quite right. I've just tried comparing the settings in a poorly lit area.
In Tv mode at 1/50th,with no gain, the image was really dark. Cinema mode lifted it, but not as much as Tv with all the gain in - but CM will alter the shutter to 1/25th, so that was gaining one stop of light.
The CM images, even with gain, were much cleaner though.
Anyway, it's academic, since I wouldn't have chosen to shoot a scene under those conditions without lights...

I shot a scene this afternoon outdoors - admittedly it's a miserable day - and Cine Mode added some gain so it might be worth keeping an eye on that, which is easy to do by flicking between it and TV mode with gain off and a 1/50s. The camera will indicate if that's under-exposed, and if it is, then Cine Mode will have gain.

I'm not sure I understand the logic of disabling the gain control when Cine Mode is employed, certainly it's all part of trying to keep the shutter speed constant, but if we have the ability to mess up and under-expose in TV mode, we should have that same ability in Cine Mode.

AGC is ignored in cinema mode. It will add gain as necessary. That's why I shoot 24p in TV mode and lock the shutter at 1/48 You might want to drop the sharpness and contrast in TV mode, though, to look more like Cinemode.

I'm not much of a fan of 24p (25p on the PAL variants) due to the lack of temporal information, and I don't have the shooting skill to get my pans and zooms at perfect speeds. I don't film anything important in low light so TV mode is good enough there, but if you don't mind spending time in post, in my view nothing comes close to Cine Mode in good light.

My solution for low light was to supplement my HF100s with a Canon T1i. Originally I ordered a Nikon to EOS adapter and found a mint 50mm F1.8 Nikkor for manual aperture control (video mode on the T1i is normally full auto only), initial tests in night settings generally had me stopping down to f2.8 and low light performance showed no gain.

There is a method of accessing manual aperture control on the T1i with Canon EF/EF-S lenses, I have a 50mm F1.8 lens left over from the EOS 650 film cameras I used to have and can do essentially the same things as with the Nikkor, the difference being aperture on the Nikkor can be changed instantly with the aperture ring on the lens, the camera immediately adjusts ISO and shutter.

I have sample videos on manual aperture control for shallow DOF in the DSLR with video forum on this site, my night video test video is here:

YouTube - T1i Night Test Short Ver

This camera will not replace the HF100 or HFS100, there are some downsides. Audio will have to be double system as it has only mono and no mic input so I use a ZoomH2 either by itself or with the same mics I use with the HF100 (Rode SVM, Rode VM, and a Nady stereo mic). But the T1i with 50mm F1.8 lenses does great shallow DOF and absolutely great low light.

And edits in with HF100 footage shot in Cine Mode with + tweaks on sharpness, contrast, and color depth.

Most folks may know this already, but I didn't. On the HF10 and HF100, it's possible to get a readout of the aperture and shutter being used in any mode (Tv, Av, CINE) by half-pressing the PHOTO button. (You need to have the 'Still I REC" option activated for this to work).

Maybe this works for the HF S100 also? - worth a try.....

It works on the HFS100 but you have to set the camera mode dial to "Dual Shot." Flipping back and forth between modes makes it more hassle than it's worth.

It seemingly works for me in the video-only mode too, when replaying recorded footage the aperture and shutter speed match what was reported by a half-press.

Robin, I too was under the impression Cine Mode tried to keep the shutter speed at 1/50th on a PAL camera, but after a day's shooting that's not what mine is doing - at all.

It seems that the camera is trying to maintain f4.0 and will vary the shutter speed to do that. In low light, it'll first open the aperture then drop the shutter speed, but in bright light, it'll stick as closely as possible to f4.0 and vary the shutter speed. During one of my shots, a helicopter flew low overhead so my instant reaction was to film it, and I can see that the camera stayed at f4.0 even with the bright sky, but the shutter speed shot up to 1/250th and the unnatural effect on the rotor blades is obvious... which is precisely not what I want it to do.

On the HFS100?

Yes, although you have to set simultaneous recording to "On", otherwise a red, flashing warning icon will appear beneath the video recording quality indicator.

Surely, if you switch to Dual Mode you're over-riding all other settings and are shooting in what was called Easy Mode on the HF10?

Don't use Dual Mode... in other words, leave the camera on the film mode, the middle setting on the dial at the rear. Then go into the Function menu and the still shooting settings (second from bottom). The default is Simultaneous Recording: "Off", if you change that to any other setting - I have it on LW/Super Fine, then the half-press will work regardless of the shooting mode, be it Cine, TV etc, and whether any other custom options are set.

Okay, I see what you mean now.
I've just tried it and it works fine.
Very useful - many thanks!

That's why I've sworn off Cinemode. It will vary the shutter speed as it deems necessary. That may be fine for some people but not for me.

I think it depends what the alternative is and what kind of shot you are after.

If you want the scene lit darkly, then perhaps it's best not to let the camera to change to a slower shutter speed. But you might have to deal with excess noise in post production. In which case, a change in shutter speed may have been a good alternative.

The other alternatives are adding gain, which Cinema mode will also do and adding more light to the composition.

When composing in low light, at some point, sensor noise becomes an issue that has to be acknowledged.

This is all very helpful information so thank you for sharing it. I intend to purchase the HF S10 (PAL) and quite a lot of my shooting will be in the low light conditions you find in a forest in daylight and at dawn/dusk, so pretty gloomy sometimes. The camcorder will often be handheld and I will be walking a fair bit too while shooting. I don’t mind a darker picture overall or deep shadow as long as the images do not contain too much noise (hence the gain limit). I am considering the following settings: 25p 1/50 AGC limited to 12dB. Sharpness and colour set to -1.

Leaving aside the OIS aspects, based on your experiences with this camcorder would you recommend other settings for the conditions I will be filming in? I prefer a smooth ‘film look’ and the advantages in low light offered by 25p, and don’t mind a slightly soft image. I have read quite a lot about the Cinemode function and there has been a debate about the pros and cons. From what I have picked up, resolution is not significantly sacrificed but you lose some control over what the camcorder is doing in terms of shutter speeds. Nevertheless, if I can set the AGC limit with cinemode this might be a good route for me to take. One consideration is that many of my scenes will be complex in content with densely packed detail (lots of verticals and a million leaves) so I recognise motion may actually be my biggest problem when trying to avoid noise and artifacts. Any advice gratefully received.