HF S21 or TM700
 

Can't decide. Some things that I cannot judge from reading about it:

1 the codec. I am not sure that I will be able to edit (in AVID or CS3) with files from Panasonics Full HD, progressive, 30 f/s mode.
2 Otherwise 25 f/s Full HD still in 17 Mb/s. I can't judge if this gives importantly less quality than cannon's 24 Mb/s. I only read that many of you do not like the 17 Mb/s on panasonics camcorders. But I never here anybody compare the codecs with eachother. 17 Mb/s might be good enough for my purposes (creating DVD's).
3 The shoe. I will use an external (Rode) mic. On both camera's it's difficult to see how that will look like, I mean, is it a workable set up? Where exactly are the shoes? I guess on the pan it is on the left side. If that is true, then how can you see the lcd through the shockmount of the mic?

Somebody with some thoughts about this?

A better question might be: why are you guys buying a HF S series canon and not the HDC-TM300 or TM700, while the last one is nearly 300 Euro cheaper then the HF S21??

So why are you guys buying a HF S series canon and not the HDC-TM300 or TM700?

I too am considering both of these cameras. Waiting for prices and reviews. However, I do think that I saw that the shoe adapter for an external mic is on the right side.

It all depends on on what you planing on doing with it.

In Panasonic's favor, theirs obviously a 1080 60p mode, much better stabilizer, better low-light capabilities, a wider lens and a traditional focusing ring. Another benefit is that it costs only $1,000 verses 1,400 for the Canon.

In Canon's favor, their are 2 memory card slots verses 1, native 24p verses 24p with pull-down added, a 30p mode and slightly higher bit rates in the 60i and 24p mode. It also has 64GB of internal storage verses 32GB of the Panasonic.

Panasonic does claim better imaging technology but even if it's just marketing, the much better stabilizer alone will make up for the lower bit rate but then again, if your shooting in 24p, you cannot edit your footage right away like you can with the Canon since you must remove pull-down beforehand.

I like to record events so having a 1080 60p mode is exactly what I need. I'd be able to make 1080p slow-motion sequences plus I love the fact that their a traditional focusing ring. That's why if I had to choose it would definitely be the TM700.

Still, I waiting to see what the successor of the HMC40 and the GH1 will be like.

In this thread you'll find 9 native 1080 60p files for you to download.
Panasonic HDC-HS700 & HDC-TM700 1080p60 cams - Page 5 - AVS Forum

Nero 9 ShowTime will play the files if you have a decent Windows computer but what's surprising is that the Sony PS3 is capable of playing back 1080 60p files.

I got S21 because it is already available from Japan,
when TM700 will become available in the stores I'll do side by side with S21 and one of them will stay, the other will go :)
but just like last year I think Vixia will do better job even with 24Mbs vs 28Mbs on TM700,
58mm vs 46mm, and 3,5" LCD vs 3" on TM/HS series;
I'm sure due to 3chip vs 1, colors will look better on TM/HS, but resolution,
well, we'll see

The size of the LCD is not the major issue; it's the resolution:

TM700 = 3.0" Wide LCD (230,400 dots)

HSF21 = 3.5-inch High Resolution Touch Panel Widescreen Color LCD (Approx. 922,000 dots)

Why Panny decided on such a low res LCD for a HD cam is ....... well, a bit bewildering.

On other fora HS11 and TM350 are compared and colors of the panasonic seem unnatural compared to the canon, especially the greens. Since I film wildlife, I am very anxious about the color reproduction of the TM700. Was somebody able already to compare this with the canons?

The Canon HF-S21/20/200 also have LANC support.

that was the main reason for me to upgrade from S10

YES, some kind of remote controle over some functions on the camcorder would be essential for me too.
I will have a 550d ((with long tele lens (as much as 800 mm) when I film birds and macro lens when I film insects)) AND the camcorder BOTH connected to the same WIMBERLEY: Wimberley Professional Photo Gear - The Wimberley Head

The 550d will take close-ups and the camcorder will do wider shots of the same subject (landscapes, overview etc). When the 550d is running I need to be able to operate the camcorder (at least the record function) without disturbing (moving) the long footage of the 550d. I wonder if that is possible with the TM700 included remote (I mean where is the infrared eye placed?).
And if there are any other functions operatable with that remote?

Would the Canon TL-H46 46mm Tele Converter Lens work on the TM700 ????

When I look at the specs for Panasonic's AG-HMC40 semi-pro camcorder, I notice that it has 1/4" sensors, just like the TM700. More tellingly, the '40 viewfinder and LCD display resolution specs exactly match those for the TM700.

I am similarly puzzled as to why Panasonic would use such a low-res LCD for its semi-pro camera, but not on the TM700, which is really just a consumer-grade camcorder with some very advanced functions.

I did have a chance to check out a TM700 at a local camera store and found that in spite of their relatively low resolution, the viewfinder and the LCD panel weren't that bad - both seemed to be fairly bright and sharp, and manual focusing using either was fairly easy.

Methinks that the TM700 uses many of the same basic components as the HMC40 does, and this is likely a cost-cutting exercise on Panasonic's part.

I've noticed the same thing with all the new Panasonic cams - the HMC 150, the HMC 40, and the TMC700/300 models. There is a distinctly greenish-blue tinge to the images each of these cameras produce. In addition to green colours (particularly vegetation) looking rather unnatural, I find skies have this weird cyan colour, (think of the colour of wintergreen toothpaste and you get the idea!) instead of the shade of blue my eyes see when I look at the sky.

I have compared footage from competing Canon cameras, and noticed that the green-blue shift is absent. If anything, Canon cameras tend to shift towards red and an overall warm-looking image, which may appear a bit soft next to Panasonic's sharp image rendering.

As an experiment, I recently downloaded some TM700 footage, threw it into Vegas, and used the colour correction feature to reduce the green cast. When I did that, I noticed that the footage looked more like it came from a Canon camera.

I also tried playing around with some Canon footage, and instead of using straight colour correction, used the Colour Curves tool to boost low-end and high-end gamma. The results were surprising, to say the least - skies took on a Panasonic-type cyan colour (although not quite as pronounced) and green colours started approaching that odd, unnatural Panasonic hue.

Probably the best way to think of the Canon v. Panasonic question is that Canon goes for a warm look, while Panasonic tends to be cool and restrained, a bit like the way Sony cameras are. The results of the experiment I conducted suggest that Panasonic has deliberately engineered in that cool colour gamut in their cameras - probably as a means of setting them apart from Sony and Canon.

If you want to compare HF-S21 footage to TM700 footage, here are a couple of clips on Vimeo that I think will demonstrate the differences between these two cameras:

Canon footage:

Panasonic footage:

One thing I immediately noticed about the Canon footage is that colours are a bit more muted, but also more natural-looking, More pleasing to my eyes, anyway.

As to which camera to get, I'm grappling with that very question now - HF-S21, TM700, or possibly the Panasonic AG-HMC40?

I haven't yet had a chance to physically test out the HF-S21. However, having just sold my HF-S100, and done some reading on the S21, I know what to expect in terms of image quality and general features. My take on it is that it is essentially a souped-up S100.

I liked the TM700 I played with in a local camera store. The manual control ring that lets you adjust iris, focus or zoom is neat, and a lot easier to use than Canon's toggle-style zoom and focus wheel which is situated just under the lens. The price is right too - about $1K Canadian and not much to pay considering it uses 3 CMOS chips. I was also impressed with how easily I could use the viewfinder - and that's saying a lot since I wear glasses that happen to be trifocals no less!

On the other hand, I like the HF-S21's monster 3.5" LCD display with 922K-pixel resolution, and the fact that it has a viewfinder.

I also like the AG-HMC40, particularly the fact that it offers even more manual control than the TM700 or the S21, plus an interval/time-lapse photography feature. It's also just a little out of my budget, and since my videos suck anyway, I wonder if it makes sense to be spending that much money. A better camera won't necessarily make me a better shooter.

Decisions, decisions...

I don't really like this TM700 footage, but I don't want to judge on a few panoramic scenes.
I also see some terrible greens from the HF S11/10 on youtube. Did anybody compare footage of HF S series with TM700 of the same object, preferably greens (vegetation/nature), but anything would be good?

Today their were multiple new TM700 clips up on Vimeo including this one which is native 1080 50p.

The only comparisons the I've seen are comparing the TM700 to the CX550.

Their just haven't been that many HF S21 clips up. At least the videos from Africa are very well made.

I have been really comparing a hundred or more test footage of TM700, HF S series and Sony XR 550.
The panasonic has falllen. I really dislike the blueish tint to almost everything. The Canon has much more realistic natural color reproduction, but in many shots too much yellow/red. I could live with that. The Sony is a bit in between to my taste. Do you guys have any opinion on this.

I am going to combine footage of 550d and the camcorder. So I need the camcorder footage to match the 550d as good as possible. The 550d, in most situations, produces realistic colors.

A couple issues...
 

That's not the problem.. all modern video editors understand 24p with pulldown, and transparently remove it. I can drop this into any of the last several versions of Sony Vegas, for example, and it just knows. This is how 24p was done on every tape-based camcorder, so it's old hat by now.

There are two issues, though. The first is simply waste.. if you're pulling 24p down to 60i, you're adding unnecessary, additional duplicated fields. So the quality is reduced by the need for this extra baggage, or you wind up using more memory.

The second is worse yet -- when you record in HD, HDV or MPEG-4, you're color subsampling in 4:2:0 cadence. In short, the subsamples happen across two scan lines. The problem here is, when you split the progressive video into interlaced fields, this happens before subsampling and compression. Let's look at the first four scan lines of a progressive video. In "native" 24p, your 4:2:0 would run subsampling across lines 1 and 2, then 3 and 4, as a set. Split fields and telecine, and you get lines 1 and 3 together, lines 2 and 4 together. Thus, the chroma distortions effects inherent in color subsampling are made worse.

The sad thing is, this is just a "simple matter of software". Panasonic used to do native 24p in their older camcorders, but now it's a "pro" feature. My HMC40 does native 24p, but on the TM700, it's the old-fashioned, tape-based 24p. Ok, still better than Sony's old fake 24p by a country mile, and yeah, people were overjoyed to get 24p this way on the old Canon HDV models, but there's no reason to do non-native anymore.

The 1080/60p mode is great for sports and other fast motion stuff. However, in practice, it's work to use. While I can edit it directly (I have a computer that used to be called fast, an Intel Q9550... not so much anymore, but you can only do so many upgrades at once, and this year, it was camcorders), it's far easier to deal converting to Cineform. You'll get about 120GB/hr in Cineform, though, so you want plenty of fast and large HDDs.

It could be some wait... pro-market cameras don't generally get the regular updates that consumer models get... even those based on the consumer models. I bought a Sony HVR-A1 over four years ago... that model is still current, no replacement yet. Despite the consumer models being replaced like 20-something times already.

Panasonic's also doing an interesting thing (just annouced).. they'll have a real, full fledged camcorder using 4/3 system lenses by the end of the year. Way, way pricier than the GH1 and other DSLR-style models, but still, it's pretty clear someone had to do this soon enough.

With a good GPU (I have a nVidia 8800GT) and Windows 7, you can get very good playback even in Windows Media Player. The win here in the new Microsoft AVC CODEC... it uses DXVA 2.0 for video acceleration. My Q9550 system barely manages a jittery playback in VLC at 60-80% CPU (all four), but in WMP, 12% for full, smooth, 1080/60p playback on a 1200p monitor.

I haven't got the PS3 to play it back yet... only tried once. It seemed confused, not sure why. The PS3 obviously outputs 1080/60p, and given that Sony is moving to support 3D output from the PS3 this summer, it sounds perfectly reasonable. Any idea what version of the PS3 firmware you used... that could be the problem. Did you play from SDHC card directly, or something else?

If you can tell me the simple steps to getting 24p within 60i from my GH1 into Premiere CS4 and easily remove pull-down without any extra software, I'll be very happy.

When I have Premiere view a 60p clip as 24p for slow motion I get very good results. Now when it comes to editing 60p at normal speed, it's real time only for the first few seconds. My laptop's processor is a 2.4 Core2Duo. I hear people have been editing 1080 60p without any issues at all in a quad core processor using Edius Neo 2 Booster and Edius 5.5. I'm assuming Premiere CS5 is good as well although I haven't heard people's experiences yet.

As for the PS3, theirs been issues for a few users one in particular in the AVS forum has claimed that disabling the picture enhancements made the playback much better. I reversed the process and my audio got bad so that may solve the issue but then again, it may also be version specific since theirs been a few revisions of the PS3.

Well, you are using Premiere....
 

Assuming the GH1 tags the video properly as 24p telecined to 60i, I would expect your NLE to just do the adjustment automatically when you add the clip to your project. That's how Vegas does it. I don't use Premiere (well, not since the early 90s).

So, I did a quick Google search, and there's some claims that CS4 "should do this, but doesn't", leading to this forum thread: "Transcodeless" 3:2 pulldown removal workflow for Premiere by LordTangent - Canon HV20, HV30 & HV40 User Forum

There are others that suggest using the "Interpret Footage" function, and selecting "Guess 3/2 pulldown" on your clips, and see if Premiere can figure them out. Again, I don't use the program.. that's what I found with a 30 second search.

Finally, you can run the video through Cineform Neo, to generate a Cineform version of your HD video and also do the pulldown for you automatically. I use Cineform anyway for heavy edits from AVC (now a total of three AVC cameras), so this speeds things up. I mean, it's $100, and by all rights your NLE ought to just recognized the telecined video and adjust, but if it doesn't, you have to find some solution.

Video playback of AVC is very dependent on how you're playing it back. I have a Quad Core 2.84GHz desktop and a Dual Core 2.4GHz notebook. Nothing that doesn't use GPU acceleration will play back 1080/60p smoothly on the notebook. And it's barely possible on the desktop. I can edit it, but it's much slower than 1080/60i or 720/60p, as you'd expect -- twice the complexity for that poor CPU to deal with.

Edius Neo 2 is supposedly the best thing out for realtime editing of AVCHD. It's also probably the newest release of a well known video editor... we'll see if Adobe, Sony, or any of the others get better AVCHD handling this year.

The Grass Valley people claim to support three streams in realtime in Neo 2, which ought to imply one-and-a-half 1080/60p streams. I have one free version of this that came with my HMC40. Tried it once, but it seems kind of clumsy, or maybe I just didn't get it. Anyway, for 1080/60p, you're probably going to want an intermediate CODEC like Cineform anyway, particularly if you're editing multicam.

I've used CineForm and it works very good but the real point I'm trying to make is that with native 24p you can easily put it in a timeline of random NLEs and edit it right away. It's even worse if after you shoot something, you have to give the footage to someone right away and you'd have to explain how to work with the footage.

Well, sure...
 

It's easy to argue that 24p over 60i is a well understood format that should be automatically supported by NLEs... it's been available on video cameras for longer than native 24p has.

On the other hand, no one's going to argue for 24p over 60i being anything other than a compromise compared to native 24p. Native doesn't screw with color, and yeah, it just plain works in any NLE that can support 24p.

It's annoying that, since these are really just "a simple matter of software", there's no reason Panasonic's now including 24p over 60i in consumer cameras, other than to cripple them relative to pro models. My daughter's SD9 supposedly does native 24p (haven't checked it myself, but that's the claim)... we couldn't have had this on the TM300 or TM700?

And what's with 30p... my HMC40 does native 24p, but it does 30p over 60i, at least for 1080/30p. That seems terribly dumb, particularly given the plethora of consumer cams that can do native 1080/30p.