Chris just also wanted to say thanks for posting these clips - really helpful

I really like the look of the cine mode apart from the sharpness-5. The image loks a little too soft for me. I wish there were a way to keep the rest of the settings and push the hsarpness back up to 0

Anyway thanks again - kep em comng!

I have a similar kind of feeling, although mine comes from the opposite direction. My wish would be that I could just apply the curve or gamma or whatever to the HV20's regular mode settings. After looking at the highlights in the cinemode versus the clipped whites of the same image in the regular mode, I just wish I could tweak the regular mode a bit but keep it's crispness. I like everything about the regular mode except for the complete loss of detail in the highlights.

But then I just keep in mind that it IS basically just a consumer handycam and I should be happy that it looks so good for $1000!

Not to thread-jack, but here is a link to the other comparison clips I'd been looking at. The sky in these really shows the difference between the cine mode and non cine mode and the loss of detail in regular shooting mode. http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showpost....3&postcount=23

Just to chime in here. I've had the HV20 for five days and put it through a gamut of tests (using my eyes and flicking my fingers up and down being one of them). I think CineMode is locking the shutter at 1/24. Yes, I like the detail in the highs but 1/24 is for the birds unless you are shooting stars in the night sky. Try it, set TV mode to 1/48 and switch immediately to Cinemode while waving your fingers in front of the cam at the same rate. I've done this in various light conditions and Cinemode is always more blurry in how it handles motion. You can't even EXP up in Cinemode without even slower shutter rates kicking in. That alone tells me it is 1/24 to begin with or it would go to 1/24 as you EXP up. I use TV mode exclusively, that way I can be assured I am shooting at the correct shutter I want. Thank you Canon for TV mode without it the cam would have went back to the store. I love this cam.

I agree Mark with respect to the Cinemode. It seems to me that you do lose some resolution, that is due to that setting, and I agree, the only thing that happens when you increase the exposure, is you get your shutter speed slowed and it looks like an old Sony VX2000 progressive mode (which was 15 fps). I haven't played with TV mode at 24 fps to see if you could match the picture.

The camera also offers various setting for certain situation under the same selection menu you select shutter or aperature priority, or Program AE or Cinemode. They include portrait, night, snow, beach, sunset, spotlight,
fireworks. We need to be analyzing these presets for various applications to.

Then you have the White balance choices, followed by image effects, which provide a lot more control then people are letting on. In that setting menu, you can go to custom, and set color depth, sharpness, contrast, and brightness.

So though they aren't under the traditional labels the pros use, there does seem to be a lot one can do to set this camera up in a manner that is satisfactory.

I am becoming more and more impressed.

May have a few more clips to post this evening, though they would be family holiday type thing.

Thanks for all the clips. I'm definitely buying the HV20! Looks absolutely incredible. I wish that I didn't have to wait like 3 hours between downloads. I tried a proxy, but I got some kind of java script error when I tried to download it.

Anyways, i'll be watching the streetball clip next. What mode would you suggest using to record paintball clips (high speed objects, lots of panning and moving)?

That's very very interesting Mark. Thanks a bunch for testing that. Since the cinemode will apparently slow the shutter down below 1/24th, are you 100% sure it won't go any faster at all? I know you said you've tried the 'finger test' in various light conditions, but have you tried it pointed at something extremely bright, like right at a light itsef? I'm not doubting you, I'm just wondering if the camera would actually stop all the way down and activate the NDs just to avoid going any faster than 1/24th

That's also very interesting to know. I wonder if you could set up a pseudo-cine mode look while avoiding the cinemode preset and get the best of both worlds by using Tv, 24p and custom settings.

I'm looking at that part of the manual now where it lists the custom settings you list above. Reported elsewhere on dvinfo, the cinemode settings are Obviously the HV20 doesn't give you all those options to control manually, but having control over contrast, color depth and sharpness is certainly something. I guess the gamma control would be the one missing item there that could really make the difference between the cinemode pre-set and being able to roll your own.

First thing you will have to decide is between 24p and 60i. With fast motion panning, you may find that 60i will be better. In 60i, and given the outdoor good light setting, I would try a high shutter speed to see if you can get that "Private Ryan" look. 24p has that feel too, but the pans and such, may be a problem for you. Experiment, and you may be able to shoot 24p fine in that action situation.

Camera tricked out with Wide Angle Adapter, and ME66 Mic
 

In another thread, the question of microphone on the camera came up. Tonight I dressed out my HV20 with Beachtek DXA-3 adpater, and mounted my Sennheiser ME66 with K6 power module on a digital slr flash bar I had. To complete the set up, in mounted my Kenko 58mm thread .65x wide angle adapter on the front. Pictures provided below.

Need Wide angle adapter ? I think so. With the bit of experience I've had with wedding shooting, I think a wide would be essential, especially in the dressing rooms scenes, and interior car scenes. I travel by car today to Easter dinner with grand kids in car, and shot them during the trip, with the wide on and wide off. Pretty tight without the wide adapter. See last two photos in group below.

I think a wide adapter should be part of your budget.

thanks for testing! i also tested mine, and in not-extremely-low light i'm 80% certain cinemode is locking the shutter to 1/48th. i tested it against 1/60th and 1/48th and 1/24th for TV mode and it looks like it matches 1/48th.

I would be very suprised if cinemode was locked at 1/24 - my guess would be 1/48.

Can anyone confirm if there is a way to adjust the sharpness upwards in cine mode?

It's pleasing to know to that some of these "issues" could be addressed through a firmware update.

I shot my fish tank last night using a tripod and exposure compensation on -5 and what a difference it made. Using the flourescent white balance option (due to the bulb in the tank) rendered near perfect color temp. This little cam keeps amazing me everytime I use it.

Can this be done in a camcorder? How? How often has Canon posted firmware updates for their camcorders? Is the firmware shareware (some network routers are for example)? Are there any custom mods out there?

Hi Chris

After using the cam for short while I can confirm that the exposure compensation works great! It's easy to access and seems to have enough latitude.

Menu access is MUCH better than my Sony.

Regards
JohnG

John:

I assume you are referring to the Sony cams that have on screen menu access, with touch screen. Of course there is nothing like buttons, dials and rings on the bigger cameras.

Still, the more I use this camera, the more amazed I am at what it does.

I tooks some video yesterday at a family Easter out door gathering. The sun was a bit filtered by light haze but still bright, and I while shooting with the camera in TV mode 24p, the auto exposure did great job of keeping everything in the viewfinder in range, and not blowing things out very often.

While the temptation with us "experts" is to fiddle with adjustments, sometime just letting the camera go once you know its idiosychrosies is a good idea.

I am amazed at how nice instant auto focus (AIF) is. I think once you know where its sweet spot is, you can pan to the subject you want to have critical focus on, let it snap in, then push the off button and be locked in on focus. And using your knowledge of that sweet spot, you can also to a damn good job of follow focus by leaving it on--- bettter than I am capable of doing in most situation using my FX1....

Hi Chris

Yes, I was referring to the Sony 'on-screen' menu system. First off, the button access menu on the Canon is MUCH-MUCH faster. Plus, I'm not smudging up the LCD display like I do on the Sony. :-(

Thanks for the tip on the IF. I haven't used it too much.

Regards
JohnG

Hook us up with some images, brother!

Well, I've had the camera for almost a week now, and the initial fooling around is over, and its time to get to work and make some serious images. I think I will use the camera with the upcoming DV Challenge, and see if I can come up with anything. My impressions after week one are:

1. Great thing in a small package. Images in regular daylight shooting are spectacular, even in auto mode.

2. Instant autofocus is a great tool. Learn to use it, and the need for manual focus may be reduced greatly--- and that is good because the focus wheel is pretty poor.

3. Not great in low light. The grain gets horrible fast. Needs light in common in home low light situations, or the grain will kill you. Better get a camera light on it if you are going to use it that way.

4. Adjustments to exposure are a lot more extensive than others have indicated. To me, if you explore the menus closely, you will find the ability to adjust things, approaching the point that you can with a full prosumer camera.

5. 24p. Hmmmm. I thought I could live with out it. But dang me if it isn't a neat feeling. I haven't even messed with pull down, and all of that yet, or any extensive editing with it yet, but I understand better all the hoopla over it. It definitely takes some rethinking on your pans and general camera movement. But the end result will add to the "filmic" quality we all seem to want to impart to our video productions..

6. 35mm adapter. I am starting to do some shots with the Letus 35a, just received. It is going to be interesting, trying to get the best image. I can screw the Letus35a on with the included 72mm achromat, and fill the frame, avoiding vignetting and getting a decent focus, but there isn't a lot of room to spare. I am wondering if adding a spacer might help, and I will be doing some experimenting on that basis. We shall see.

7. I will post some Letus results later this week.

8. By the way, thanks to Robert Ducon who offered to post some footage. We'll see if I can overcome my ineptness to get something posted there from the the Letus.

First Letus35a Footage from HV20
 

Okay, here is my first serious attempt at Letus35a and HV20 combo. Bought one of those "handyman" specials from Quyen, and thought I had it cleaned up pretty good. but saw I had an issue when I put it up on the bigger screen at the computer. Very small screen on camera makes it imperative that you have a good field monitor to see that sort of thing, as well as to focus. But I think that is true of any 35mm adapter set up.

This is a windows media file. Two different lenses used: First was a 50mm F1.4 Nikon, and the second was a Canon FD 24 mm F2.8. Both lenses were at about F 5.6. Rendered with compression from about a 300 megabytes to 40 plus, but still look decent. I uploaded a Megauploads:

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=4UCEHLIF

Looks good except the dirt on the bottom right hand area. Good stuff.

This is what scares me a bit about the Letus. I know Chris says this was one of the "handyman" specials from Quyen but I've read more than one post about dirt or stuff on the GGlass, many posts about having to take apart the letus to clean it up. There's a big leap, cost wise, between the Letus35a and the Brevis35, but I have nightmares about going out on a shoot and coming back with a chunk of something on the image.

On the other hand, it's interesting to me to hear that these were shot with an f-5.6. I've not been able to quite nail down how far you can stop down a lens with any of these adapters and still get a good image. All in all, the footage looks good (although I kept waiting for the water-spout to come into focus on that last shot. The back two bracing pieces of bamboo are really clear, but the spout is a bit off)

One Month- A few Issues to Resolve
 

After having started this thread a month ago, I wasn't sure where it was going. But after about of month of use, while there are a few gripes about the camera, overall, I think it is a super value. For anyone wanting to get into HDV, ameteur film making, or just producing nice looking film, this camera has a lot to offer in its little package. The following are issues I will be working on in the next month take it even further:

1. 24p: I have been shooting mostly 24p in the last 3 weeks. Two issues arise. First is editor related, ie., how to remove pulldown. I have been simply editing in 60i, which preserves the effect, but I am told it is not there yet. I am told we need to have an editor that does automatic pull down, and Premiere and Vegas don't do that yet. There are processes recommended out there that are time consuming, and I will be messing with those a bit.

2. 24p or OIS issue: The other 24p issue is knowing when not to use it. It is a fun thing to have on board, but it is also clear it can create issues. I was filming in a lush pioneer grave yard setting in a grove of trees and had a headstone in foreground. I did a slow pan to a marker in the background, but even doing that as slow as I could, the foreground marker seems to jump around a bit when I view the shot on my HDV monitor. Problem with this analysis is that I may have also had OIS on inadvertantly, so it could be the stabilization that was at issue, too, or a combination of both. More testing required here.

3. Use with Letus35a. Married with the Letus35a or the Brevis, this camera provides an inexpensive and compact platform to shoot in more film like footage. For about $2K, you can outfit a system which includes the camera, the adapter and several lenses. The results will be astounding. The simple adapter I built to flip the camera in order to avoid image flip in post works very nice. And I have gotten more used to shooting with an upside down image in viewfinder.

One question I have of people using the Letus, and perhaps the Brevis, is use of OIS. I have been using OIS, because it seems to help resolve loss of sharpness due to the vibrations from the adapters. Does any one have any thoughts there ?

Chris,
Thanks for all the info about the HV20.

I have a Sony FX1 and am seriously considering selling it. In your opinion, how does the image from the HV20 compare to the FX1, as far as detail goes? I realize there are subtle differences, but the FX1 is the only HD image I've seen from a camcorder.

I also own a Canon GL2 and I really think I prefer the image on the Canon's I've owned to the Sony's I've owned. It's just a personal preference based on how beautiful I thought the GL2's shots were. I've never owned any other 3 chip Sony besides the FX1, so I'm not putting Sony down. The FX1 does take some incredible video.

How do you feel the image on the HV20 compares to the FX1 as far as picking up details? I guess I'm asking if someone comparing images from each camera would feel like the Canon is a step down as far as image quality.

Thanks again,
- John

John:

I've been "hooked" on the HV20 lately, learning to use 24p effectively, as well as process it. We used the HV20 with a Letus adapter to shoot a 48 Hour film this weekend, set up like this:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/attachmen...4&d=1182318059

We posted a low rez version at YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9s3hDShqe18

HV20 is definitely capable of a fantastic image. Control the camera is more difficult, but you can still do full manual. I've been emersed in the camera for about 3 months, and love what it can do, and the image in many situations is as good or can be better in certain situations, than FX1. But this is definitely a consumer camera. My advice is try to keep both. If you can't, then it would be a hard decision for me to give up the FX1. 24p is really the only thing the HV20 has on the FX1- something that could be rendered to in post, in some commercially available programs.

Incidentally, I shot the FX1 for about six months before I realized that when I was shooting in full manual, that the camera still automatically adds gain- unless you set it up right..... My next few shoots will be going back to the FX1 with the Letus to see what differences are...

Wow! That is a great short film and it's incredibly well shot! The shots are very tasteful and fit the scenes, too!

There are a few reasons I am probably going to sell my FX1. The main ones are money and because I think I would like to own another Canon. I really love my GL2.

Again, I have had good luck with Sony's so it's nothing against the brand. There is something, though, that I really like about Canon's picture...even on still cameras. It's probably something that someone with your background could easily identify, but I'm still learning - slowly. It seems like the Canon's have a softer image, but I'm not sure.

Also, I have a wide angle lense that I bought for the GL2. I need to investigate to see if it would fit the HV20, possibly with a step up ring.

One other thing... I took my FX1 on vacation recently and got stares everywhere I went. It was funny because it really stands out. We were at Universal Studios in Florida and even one of the guys who was about to perform as one of the "Blues Brothers" made a comment to me privately that it was a really nice camera. The video of Universal and SeaWorld turned out amazing. Some shots are like looking through a window.

Sorry to digress. It's late. :)
- John

Oh, I meant to ask one other thing if you don't mind.

I only have a few tapes that I've shot with the FX1, but would like to be able to edit them in the future. Do you know, at this point, if the HV20 will play back tapes shot from the FX1?

Thanks!
- John

Chris,

In regards to HDV, I 'grew up' on the Z1U/FX1, thought I don't own one now I still could use one if I want/need. I do own an HV20 and have immersed myself in it as well, and have grown to trust and really like it.

I'd really like to hear what your thoughts are going back to the FX1 now after having have used the HV20 for the last 3 months! Keep us posted please.

Hi Chris and everyone, thanks for a great thread I think you have convinced me to get one of these beauties (the hv20 I mean).

Chris I was really touched by your 48hr film. I'm sure a lot of people the world over will feel their heart strings being tugged somewhat.

Best,

Steve.

John Stantley:

I've used my Sony 1.7 Teleconvertor and my Kenko .7 wide with 58 mm mounts on the HV20 with appropriate step up rings. They weren't really designed for HD, but seem to do reasonably well.

I know what you mean about the Canon image, it has a bit different emphasis, but then I think you can adjust the Sony to meet that. Canon seems to set their cameras a bit softer in sharpness and detail, giving it a different look. This will probably set off an argument, but I think there image is warmer than Sony.

As far as playing the FX1 tapes on the Canon, I haven't tried it yet, but others have indicated it works fine. I have taken the Canon tapes through the Sony.... a couple of times.

Robert Ducon:

I will keep you posted. One thing I have figured out is how to shoot the FX1 upside down with the ease I can do it with the HV20. Score 1 for the Canon on that level.


Steve Jones: Thanks for the kind words about the film. I will pass it on to all involved.

Thanks Chris.

I saw in one of the threads that the tapes play back fine between the two different cameras.

Keep us posted on your progress with the Canon. I'm going to try to find one locally so I can actually hold one. This thread has whetted my appetite for the HV20.

- John

John:

Won't impress you much just holding it.... Build isn't spectacular, and it has a bit of a rattle to it when it isn't on-- OIS unit, I think...

That's exactly what it is....

I think that sums it up nicely.
I have a Sony HC3 - I see annoying black outlines around all objects - an image sharpening 'feature' that does not exist on my HV20.

To me the HV20 PQ is streets ahead of the Sony HC3

The hc3 is famous for those. No black outlines with the hc1 either.

Yes you are correct - the HC1 was a brilliant camera, too good for Sony to keep it available for the price!
I am quite annoyed with myself for not getting one when I could have.
Still, the HV20 is the next best thing and it also has a few things the HC1 does not have - optical stabiliser and HDMI :-)

Since this thread got woke up, I will comment on most recent status. I am still working with the HV20 Letus35a combo. Bolted together, the two work alright together, except that you can quite get the zoom you need to eliminate vignetting at higher FStops. So I married the two with a Cinevate achromat, that, in combo with the Letus Achromat, get you plenty of zoom capability. The results appear to be a lot better, though I had thought the extra glass would make it worse. I should try just an extension tube to see if it works.

I have gone to Cineform Neo HDV to handle pull down, and it is great. But, I have also found that shooting my FX1 a capturing with Cineform with pull down also results in an interesting 24fps file. The results look very close to the HV20 24p file... Has anybody tried this ?

I think after using this camera for half a year you learned its tricks, but just in case...
Yep, this is exactly how it works. You can check current shutter/aperture (in real f-stops, not in relative EV steps) by pressing Photo button halfway. You will need mini-SD card inserted for this to work.

Cinemode works differently depending on 60i or 24psf.

In short, 60i + Cinemode is basically an automatic mode with Cine gamma. When you lock exposure and start adjusting it, the camera can easily change either shutter speed or aperture to its liking. There is little use of Cinemode in 60i.

24psf + Cinemode is more usable. Camera tries to stay at 1/48s and wider than f/8.0. If you need less exposure, than camera stays at f/8.0 and ramps up shutter speed up to 1/500s, after this it starts increasing aperture again. On the dark side, if the iris is fully open -- which can be anywhere from f/3.0 to f/1.8 depending on current zoom -- it starts decreasing shutter speed. It seems that after it slows down to 1/24s, it starts elevating gain.

This has been a very interesting thread for me. I currently own an XH-A1 and a GL2, but I'm seriously considering selling my GL2 and getting an HV20. For one, I need a camera whose footage is going to better match the 24f from the A1, and I would like a camera to put on the top of a Glidecam. Putting the A1 on a Glidecam seems just about impossible, unless I start doing steroids and pump up my arms to carry the thing.

I have a couple questions that haven't been addressed on the thread:

1. I have read somewhere that pulldown is 3:2:0 in 24p mode on the HV20. Is this true, and if so, how will this effect my editing (using Vegas 7.0) when I'm mixing 3:2:0 footage from the HV20 with the 4:2:0 stuff from the A1?

2. Has anyone used the HV20 on a Glidecam or similar stablizer? What's it like in 24p mode?

Cineform Applies a 3:2 pulldown the same as it does with the Sony V1Uand HV20 is specifically listed by Cineform as appropriate. I use it and it seems to do just fine.

Chris, I am very curious on what that looks like. Are you shooting 60i (no Cineframe 30 or 24) and then capturing it in Cineform? Any more details you could provide would be awesome...