Canon should pay Hurd commission. Agreed - love my HV20, no other sub $4000 CDN camera I'd prefer to own.

Thanks for your feedback Stefan. You could be right in what you are saying...I don't kow. I guess it all depends on how you look at it (glass half empty or glass half full). I tend to be optomistic (not saying that you are not). This efort might or might not go anywhere...but...one thing i would like to ask Canon..is how they were able to remove pulldown in their demonstration video. Maybe we could all adopt that method...though..Cineform is a great option.

Agreed....and to add to this...being the big hit that it is...imagine how much more they could sell for such a seemingly small fix...

Hmmm. Wonder why there were 4k hits on this thread at this point.... someone seems interested.....

Well of course everybody would like for this to happen. I'm not sure if it will or if we really have a stance. I mean I can come up with a whole list of things I think could have been done on this camera as well as every other camera on the market. There is no such thing as a perfect camera and everybody just needs to deal with that fact and work with what they got.

The camera is a 24p camera so Canon has every right to say it is 24p. Having to use special tools to remove the pulldown is no different then Canon not saying you have to use HDV capable software to edit video from the HV20 or how you may need a dual cpu system to edit HDV at a decent speed level. I mean somebody could be using an older Pentium 4 computer and buy the camera and they would not have very much luck editing the footage very well.

Canon gives us the starting point for 24p material and it is up to us to decide how we want to use it.



As for "just adding flags" it is much much harder then that. flags are a part of a mpeg2 encoder. Some encoder chips (chances are the one in the HV20) don't know how to encode a mpeg2 stream with pulldown flags. The mpeg2 encoder in a camera is a chip and not a software encoder. Naturally a simple interlaced mpeg2 encoder is much cheaper to use in a consumer camera. In order for the HV20 to add mpeg2 flags a whole new mpeg2 encoder chip which can deal with 24p and repeat field flags would have to be changed in the camera. This is not going to be a firmware upgrade if the encoder doesn't even know what flags are. I mean there is the very small chance that the encoder has everything built in and Canon only turned off the flags but I highly doubt it. This is a subject nobody on this forum would ever know so there is little point talking about exactly what features are on the encoder chip itself.

This is not a fix but a after market feature request. The camera is not broken and it works exactly like it was designed to work.

Hi Everyone,

Respectfully, this fix we want is no tweak or feature request. It's necessary to get proper use of a prime feature of this camera! People are buying the HV20 in significant part because of the 24p mode, especially because it takes such good video in lower light.

Canon will be most motivated to fix this flaw if people are being told in advance of buying the HV20 that they should think twice. Because they will not be able to use the 24p mode and have it look right without jumping through some expensive or time-consuming hoops.

We shouldn't worry about being hot on this camera. Of course it takes great pictures. But it is - we must admit - currently crippled in this area. It takes nothing away from our purchases to tell others about this serious flaw.

When websites start telling people to reconsider buying the HV20 until Canon issues a firmware update enabling full and proper use of the 24p mode, Canon will have the best incentive to do so.

Thomas,

That's a good point. While researching pulldown I read something similar in the way MPEG decoder chips are done for DVD players which result in combing/interlace/chroma artifacts. Still, if it is possible, and we can't be sure it's not we would like to see flags inserted into the stream somehow.

How bout a free capture utility that does it, Canon ??

For me personally if Canon issues a statement saying flags are dependent on the encoder chip and can't be added without updating that chip, I can live with that. I wouldn't demand a refund or recall of the HV20. I'll move on and use one of the software solutions to do pulldown removal. (Though I'd hope they would include that updated chip in future models.)

But... we won't know for sure until they know some of us are concerned. So I for one will make the necessary calls.

I concede. "If it ain't broke don't fix it."

hv10 deinterlance footage
 

hv10 deinterlance footage
4:2:2 conversion
film gamma

http://jya.jp/jt/tmp//1178759146.wmv

I stand firm in my position that this is NOT a big deal. So what if canon engineered this camera so that it takes 1 extra step (a very simple step IMO) to get the true 24p. I am glad to see that Ian G. came around to agree that this camera "ain't broke, so don't fix it." I don't get it. What's so hard about doing reverse telecine instead of 2:3 pulldown removal??? What? You say your software doesn't do reverse telecine. Maybe it's your software you should be trying to change. Not your camera. The software package I owned had no problem doing what needed to be done simply, and quickly, with the HV20 right out of the box.

What is the proper workflow on a mac and what software should be used?
 

I have a macbook pro. I have the canon hv 20. I will shoot in 24p very soon. What software exactly do I need. I'll purchase either final cut pro or final cut express. I need step by step being a new person to this whole 24p capture, etc. etc. To the pros out there, it's a no brainer apparently. Yet for me and many others like me interested in using this new camcorder as well as the proper software, we need a little more hand holding and less assuming we have the experience of what to do. So a step by step procedure would be most welcome.

i.e. step one, capture footage using this software with these settings. step two, use the following setting and then export using the following settings. step three, using nle software, import using the following settings. when done editing, export using the following settings. If exporting hd, use this setting, if exporting to dvd use this setting, if exporting to blueray use this setting, etc.

Now that would be helpful. In fact, the person would get quite a following who offers that type of specific advice. The question is, who will provide this information.

Thanks in advance to whomever answers the call. Your name will live in glory to all those who stood on your shoulders to take the next step.

Please describe your "very simple step", because from the numerous posts I've read, and the experimentation I've done, it's not that easy, especially since it requires you to duplicate all your footage. Maybe I'm missing something through...

Windows: Capture direct from camera with Connect HD.
Mac: Capture direct from camera to AIC Codec. Reverse telecine with Cinema Tools

So technically, it's only one step with windows, two steps with the FCP / Cinema Tools workflow. With Cinema tools you have to remove pulldown manually, and set the start frame.

How to get true 24p with Final Cut and Cinema Tools
 

I use Final Cut Pro and Cinema Tools to get the job done. Cinema Tools comes with the Final Cut Studio Package.

Step 1. Open Final Cut Pro, Close any projects that might be open, go to Final Cut Pro>Easy Setup. Choose HDV 1080/60i.

Step 2. Go to Final Cut Pro>Audio/Video Settings, and under Capture Preset choose HDV Apple Intermediate Codec -- (Very Important!)

Step 3. Open a new project (unless one opened automatically), Open Log and Capture, and Capture footage just as you would normal dv footage.

Step 4. Save your project!!!!! Close Final Cut.

Step 5. Now here is the extra step that people are complaining about. Instead of removing pulldown in final cut, you have to do it in Cinema Tools....It really is easy once you know how to do it. (takes a while to explain, but is quick when you do it)

First, each clip you capture must begin with the first progressive frame in the sequence of three.....Sounds complicated? it's not really. Because of the HDV Standard, clips are captured in a sequence of 2 interlaced frames, then 3 progressive frames, then 2 interlaced, then 3 progressive, and so on.... I've seen it like this- iipppiipppiipppiippp - you must trim your clip so that it begins on the first progressive frame in the sequence of 3. Easily done by going to your capture scratch and opening you clips in quicktime. use the arrow keys to advance frames one by one. It is pretty easy to tell which frames are progressive, and which are interlaced. command-x removes the current frame. Once you have it to where the first three frames of the clip are progressive, save and close quicktime. Then Open Cinema Tools and click cancel when it asks to open a database. Go to File>Open, choose your clip. Now click Reverse Telecine, the button on the right side of the viewer. Set it to 23.98 frames per second, and click DD at the bottom. Click ok and save it. Once it's done. You've got true 24p. Import the clips into a Final Cut project, Got to Sequence>Settings, and Change the Timeline to 23.98 FPS. Now you can edit in 24p. I haven't really messed around with the export settings, but I'm sure it would be easy to figure out.
I know that it seems like a lot to do this, but you'll see that once you try it, it really is a very simple and quick process, and Totally worth it to get the quality. It's not really worth complaining over, especially because of the price and features of this camera.

Well, it's always impressive to stand firm, but it's not a qualification for being right, just the appearance of it. People who bluff do it all the time.

If you say it's not a pain to go through these extra steps when Canon could have added flags then you're not being forthright, it is a pain. In the patuskie. Time is valuable, and the necessity of spending my time doing these extra steps, taking up valuable space in my hard drive is a temporal and physical waste and a mental drag.

Canon could easily have added the flags but they didn't, just like they didn't have a mic input in the HV10. Who's taking bets the HV30 has flags?

It's probably not an engineering problem, it's a suit-n-tie problem, someone's decided on the way to maximize cashflow.

Elmer Lang

You say "Canon could have easily added flags", but honestly, how do you know that?? Apparently you are an expert engineer in digital video and optics.....Either that, or you assume that just because it is in the high end Canon's, it is easy and should be in this camera also........Either way....It doesn't really matter. There's no point arguing who is right and who is wrong.

The fact is, if you want 24p with the HV20, you have to reverse telecine....If your editing time = money, then you are considered professional. And if you are professional, why are you using a consumer grade camera? This is a Non-issue for me, as I am extremely grateful to be able to even afford the chance to work with true 24p.

Hey mac guys who are having reverse telecine issues:
this thread here gave me a nice workflow:
http://dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=92629
Yes it involves duplicating your footage, but it's a one-time thing (from HDV->Photo-JPEG). Besides, cutting in native HDV just yields nasty generational issues.

Stefan, one thing is to realize that this is a consumer camera. It is listed such here:

http://www.usa.canon.com/consumer/co...categoryid=173

If they would list in under professional cameras here:

http://www.usa.canon.com/consumer/co...categoryid=172

and clearly state the limitation in 24p mode I would be fine with that.

How many consumers do you expect to be happy with paying extra $250 for Connect HD (don't quote me on the price please) on top of what it comes with he cam and/or additional sub $100 NLE they already might have?

How many consumers are going to be happy with interlaced artifacts when watching out-of-box video?

I did not have to do all this with my JVC HD10 or HD1, both pro and consumer versions.

Unfortunately the whole 24p is so cloudy when you read about it on canon.com or the pdf downloadable manual. Either they do not know what they are doing or they put the big cloud on it for legal reasons.

You can take any 1080i cam and run it through NLE to get progressive like 24p. If this is acceptable then there are many cams to choose from. Most would buy this cam for the 24p mode.

Again, this is a consumer cam and it doesn't deliver out-of-box performance.

When this issue is addressed I get one the same day....it is canon's opportunity to get a nice market share....

Getting back to the original point of this thread, just a quick update: spent nearly 1 hour on the phone today with Canon tech support (the Irvine Calif.Canon Service Center deflected the call that way). I spent most of the time on hold as my support rep kept checking with other people in the organization. By the end of the call (which was very cordial BTW) she informed me that someone in upper management would be made aware of the issue and would contact me directly within a week or so.

I also called the Canon R&D Facility in Irvine Calif. The woman I spoke to was not helpful and all I could get was a fax number to send a letter to voice my concerns. For those who like writing letters: it's 949-932-3510 I'm sure a few hundred (polite!) faxes would get their attention.

Thanks for your efforts!! I faxed the number you provided with a polite query and hope others will too. Please let us know of any developments.

best,
elmer

Thanks for all the efforts to make the HV20 a better camera. I have emailed Canon as well.

Here is a thread at AVSforum about this topic: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=843628

I haven't been following this thread until I noticed the number of times CineForm is mentioned -- thank you for the complementry words.

CineForm extracts the pulldown using a real-time image analysis which we developed for a much higher-end application, it just works very nicely with these new HDV sources. We wouldn't use the flags even if they where there -- flags can be wrong, but the image doesn't lie. We don't use pulldown flags offered in the Sony V1U, as there would require engineering time to get the same result we have now. So asking for pulldown flags from Canon is the wrong request.

What you could be asking for is progressive encoding like the Canon HV20 big bothers XL-H1,G1,A1. These cameras encode 24p as 24p, not 60i. No flags are needed, as no pulldown needs to be extracted. The problem is the nature HDV NLE vendors are so slow to use this approach, Canon went with the lowest common demoniator for wider NLE support, which is 60i. Yet most NLEs don't support pulldown flagging in HDV anyway. So really you should be requesting wider 24F support from Apple, Sony and maybe Adobe (I think they have it) so then it would be fine for camera's like the HV20 to encode that way.

Non-pulldown 24p encoding of MPEG is more efficient, has fewer artifacts, and the 4:2:0 sampling will not produce any crosstalk between frames as it does with 24p in 60i.

my 2 cents.

Thanks for chimming in Dave. Your suggestion is a good one, though don't you think switching to 24F-type encoding on the HV20 is gonna be more than a firmware update? For those of us who already own the camera, at least with flags on our 24p/60i files, the assumption is FCP, Premiere and Vegas can do pulldown removal.

Agree, it would likely be more than a firmware upgrade. I was pointing out that Canon's actions makes good business sense, given the slow nature of the NLE companies. Currently I believe only Vegas recently added the use embedded HDV pulldown flags, so it is no surprise the HV20 was released without them.

I would agree a native 24/25p stream would be most optimal. :) Talk about hassle and trouble free.

Canon could simply provide a capture utility for the 24p cam or at least a media player. This would eliminate firmware changes for us, consumers.

This cam can do 25p recorded on 50i stream. What are the issues being referred here?

25p into a 50i stream, is almost the same as 25p into a 25p stream. The only thing that could change, is maybe the mpeg2 codec optimzation... but still, the results are going to be the same.

But I agree: in NTSC land, it's a HUGE diference.

emailed canon and Nick answered:

"I'm sorry that you're having problems with the 24p pulldown. We've been
made aware of the issue, and I've forwarded the concerns about the
pulldown to our development team. We'll look into the matter to see what we can do to
help. In the meantime, you might also contact the company who makes
your video editing program to see if they have any suggestions.

While trying to learn more about the issues that people are having with
24p footage the HV20, I came across a discussion happening on
dvinfo.net. While we can't verify the information there, I personally found the discussion
interesting, and it might be useful for you to get a sense of how others
are handling the problems they're running into:
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=92629"

A firmware update would be really nice.

An alternate route that we might want to pursue is to contact each of the NLE makers and make a request for them to allow processing 24p footage without markers by evaluating the individual frames (similar to cineform). I think it would likely take them a while to come up with something functional (if they were even interested in doing so).

It is one additional avenue the should likely be pursued in addition to the requests being made to Canon to include the flags.

-Steve

Good work, gents! You'd think if the JES De-Interlacer can detect the frames, Apple, Adobe et al could find something to help us...and we'd really appreciate!

best,
elmer

if i buy neo hdv will NEO HDV do the pull down for 24p on the HV20 just fine ????? sony vegas 6 user here

Yes, works very well... download the tryout and see how easy it is..

Anyone coming up with anything new ?

I see that Cineform is offering free upgrade to Neo HDV from HD Connect if it was purchased after February 2007. I purchased HDConnect from BH for 189.00 recently and will be requesting the NEO HDV upgrade. Anybody gone through that already ?

David Newman, thanks for chiming in. Your post was helpful to the community and, not because of any advertising by you, I'll be buying your product because it functions as advertised.

IMHO (JD-biased as it is), Canon's advertising is at the very least a bit misleading in omitting that you cannot edit 24 frames representing a second of footage, you must edit a larger number and that introduces other issues.

Any update on this?