Richard, thank you very much for support:)
HDMI output (1440x1080 8bit) from camcorders and Intensity HDMI input (8bit only) really bottleneck for amazing Cineform codec.

Time to push CineformRAW. Every prosumer camcorder must have CineformRAW. HDV and AVCHD 4:2:0 8 bit its a deliver codec for broadcast and optical media as BD/HDDVD.

For acquisition and editing only one quality solution - CineformRAW.

Yes! ;)

Have an look over at my technical thread about an new c programmable parallel processing chip :) . Ambarella might be cheaper (if it can be reprogrammed to do cineform).

I respect what you say about 2K problems (you think they would have sorted that one out before release). I think by what you say, some DX10 GPU improvement, and multi-processing core, might be able to obtain reasonable numbers, even an PS3 Linux system.

Thanks


Richard,

I thought I might have to give up on anything like an 50fps (until faster boards come in an year) 25fps would do me. Yes, I am saying cineform, and was asking fro comparison with others. I know the data rates and HD capability. Providing you want to pay the power consumption price you can do it dingle storage drive for 25fps 720p (notice I avoid 1080, makes system bigger). To save power, you might have to go 4:2:0 and twin laptop drives, though I think there might be an faster than 30mb/s sustained laptop drive out there. 32GB flash SDHC due in January, so flash IDE drive maybe cheaper by then (still big money fro this low cost rig).

It is an viable option for me, attached to an rig attached to little hand camera (like that post of the Canon HV10 rig) sort of being planning on going for something an bit loopy like that. Still like to do an pixel-shifted digital cinema camera though.

Serge, yes, yes, and the cineform RAW could also be delivery, with my idea. I'd rather 720p at twice quality, than 1080i at half of something. Problem is, that 720p50 would be around 48mb/s, but we have far too many TV stations as it is ;) very inefficient.

fiting the intensity and the 20MBps
 

Hi, Kevin,

Congratulations. Your system is perfect in my opinion. I would like to know how did you fit the intensity card in horizontal position. Is there an extension PCIe cable? And about the 20MBps BM codec, does it work in the windows xp? I think this datarate can give artifacts results as low as in minidv? Did you try it?

Thanks,

Adriano.

BM's codec is losing frames for Kevin and to put it frankly, CineForm completely outclasses it from a quality perspective.

Putting the card in a horizontal position is achieved using a PCI Express riser.

poor performance reasons?
 

thanks for the reply, Did this forum find the reason for drop frames? I read almost everything and I did not find the answer. I just read maybe it is a processor speed not enough. but maybe this motherboard does not have enough architeture for the hd workflow like the intel's does. What do you think?

A Good source for PCI Express Bus Extenders:
http://www.orbitmicro.com/company/pr...ser_cards.html

graphics card, video preview and sound output
 

In my experience with computers I could never get good performance with onboard graphics to capture and edit video. maybe this can be a reason to droped frames too. But as this board cannot handle the graphics card together with intensity I sugest to disable the the video preview when capturing and turn off the audio output too. this two settings helps very much to avoid drop frames in slow computers when capturing video.

You know what Serge...if I answer no to this question I think there will be a lot of A1 owners ready to dispute that answer. But...honestly I don't think the A1's picture is any better (if better at all) than the HV20s. It seems to have a wider angle view but the pictures compliment one another. Now...in low light there should be a difference....but I don't own an A1 (only viewed many of its pictures). But to add...I do believe the HV20 does have the potential of giving a better looking image if there was a way to hack it or andromadize(sp) it using Cineform's codec. This is definately a real 2k camera.

external x internal 2.5 drive
 

I dont think an external 2.5 drive can handle the capture well if it is pluged in firewire or usb to capture HD. the capture drive must be pluged direct in the sata conection in the motherboard. if user wants to put the drive outside for swap, so user needs to pull the sata and power cables outside the box to plug in the 2.5 drive to get speed on it.

photo shows 2.5 hd pluged in usb
 

the photo 3 of teh system in first page shows the 2.5 external hd pluged in the usb conector. was the capture tests done in this way or the capture tests was done using sata or e-sata connection in the 2.5 drive?

usb
 

I dont think usb can handle 60MBps. The maximun I can get with external HDD or DVD burner is just 6 (six) MBps. The 480Mbps that gives the 60MBps information is just theoretician in my opinion.

Over USB2 or FireWire 400 you can sustain between 34-38MBytes/s if the drive is is fast enough. We regularly capture 20-25MB/s data directly to FireWire or USB2 drives from HDMI/HDSI sources. The fastest 2.5" drive will sustain up to 30MB/s, most will do 20MB+/s across the entire surface -- the Silicon Imaging SI-2K camera uses a 2.5" drive for all its video captured in CineForm RAW, that can be up to 15MB/s.

sata vs usb
 

I just would like to see test results from this equipment about capturing MJPG, NEO and Sheer using both usb and sata conections in the 2.5 drive to be sure about drop frames. A real test is the best answer. Thanks.

Er, David has done real tests. He's the CTO of CineForm.

His bandwidth measurements are accurate which means that basically only BM and CineForm will work. Sheervideo's stated compression is only 2:1 - way beyond the means of either a USB/Firewire or even 2.5" SATA drive.

If you read the thread earlier you will see that Kevin's reported frame loss using the MJPEG Blackmagic codec was due to inefficient use of the dual core CPU. MJPEG comes in at around 18MB/s, by the way.

Personally I do not see much point pursuing pristine HDMI quality capture if you're going to degrade that quality with the MJPEG codec. In my tests, even CineForm's lowest quality setting significantly outperformed MJPEG.

Ok, so the system needs a more powerfull cpu!
 

Ok, so the system needs a more powerfull cpu!

png files
 

I saw the png files and the neo is very better than the other

Wow, that's a lot of activity here. TO answer some questions:

1. I did all of my tests with the HD (Seagate Momentus 7200.2) connected with the USB cable, not the eSATA (which I could have). The HD will sustain a write speed (for the whole disk surface) of just over 30 MB/s with USB, so it is not the bottleneck for capturing video.

2. The BM codec skipped frames because it was cpu bound, not disk bound, as has been stated. My estimate is 50% more cpu power is need to avoid skipping since 32% of frames were dropped. At this time Intel doesn't make something that fast. The data rate for the MJPEG codec was around 15MB/s. Most people forget that JPEG has variable compression ratios, but the BM codec has a fixed ratio. Codecs that can set the ratio to less compression may provide better quality and require less cpu power. Any suggestions?

3. The BM intensity card is attached with a flexible PCIE extension cable. They are available for 1x,4x,8x, and 16x slots.

It seems everyone much prefers the quality of Cineform compression over MJPEG, so I'll stick to using it. In fact, I'll do some more comparisons and try using a higher quality setting if the cpu can handle it.

I could also set up a striped disk set (might have to use 3.5" disks) to see if the system can handle using HuffYUV to record a lossless video stream in the backpack. Is this worthwhile or interesting to anyone?

I'm note sure what you mean with artifacts as low as in minidv.

artifacts
 

The minidv standard definition has a compression 5:1 this compression generates some mosquito noise but it is intraframe, so it does not have the blocking, the temporal and the posterization artifacts found in MPEG2 HDV. I was thinking about if it was possible to capture using the BM MJPG at 20MBps , so it would be about 6:1, near the minidv ratio and maybe it could give a good quality.

Another point: did you try to turn off the video and sound preview when capturing? it helps avoid drop frames.

And about the onboard graphics card? maybe it is another reason to low performance.

A good question to answer is: wich CPU can handle the BM codec without drop frames in a full size ATX motherboard????? If a full size motherboard can handle the capture with a 2.0ghz core 2 duo, so the reason for drop frames is not the cpu... off board motherboards with audio and video cards are allways better for video capture and editing.

thanks.

codec sheervideo
 

I would apreciate you to do a test using the sheervideo codec for capture. I read about it in the website and it has a data rate about 40 MBPS, about 3:1 compression and it would be a good test to a two disk raid in sata. they promiss a fast performance, and a lossless quality, so your system would be nice to prove if it is usefull.

thanks

While Sheer can produce a 3:1 compression, the source image would need to be very low noise otherwise we will get a much higher data rates, more typical is 2:1 but sometimes you get even less compression. The is an issue with lossless compression, some source images are just no very compressable.

Regarding MJPEG compression, all DCT compression can experience blocking, the is no only a inter frame compression artifact.

Some Notes so far
 

1. Has anyone found a mini-ITX board with SATA II AND RAID0 ?
2. Can I add GigE and Firewire 800 :-) to requirements ?
3. PCI-X riser can be used..Or PCI-X extension cable.
4. A comparison of mini-ITX boards
http://www.mp3car.com/vbulletin/gene...tx-boards.html
5.

When you say PCI-X, do you actually mean PCI Express? PCI-X is something completely different.

My Bad
 

PCI-Express not PCI X

AOpen i945GMt-FA
 

anmoi, this aopen might interest you. Sata and raid0. http://usa.aopen.com/products_detail.aspx?Auno=2211

Aopen i945GMt-FA
 

Thanks. I did look at it, as a few people mentioned it on this thread. However, it takes a 19V battery with consumption of about 90Watts. I'm trying to find a more power-efficient solution.

hi all

great great post i just looking all over to built system like this

i have one big problem i know s!@@$t about computers components

if you pleas pleas sand me a list of all the parts needed to built a system like this

were do i buy small housing like Kevin has for the motherboard

what else do i need (CPU ram graphic card???)
is the hard disk is external what hard disk i need sata? raid?

as you see i am lost pleas help

thanks

portable solution
 

I would like to ask David CTO if Cineform is developing a portable solution to sell bundled with the Neo. thanks

A message from a friend of mine :-

>>>>
But I have found out something quiet interesting. The Asus EeePC $200 900mhz Linux subnotebook, has an mini PCI-e card slot.

http://unicap-imaging.org/unicap_eeepc.htm

My desire is more for 720p capture, which this would more suit. An hard disk would need to be put in an thin case under the unit with an Intensity and extra power supply (for the card). There is an new version next April, on an better chip-set (hopefully better processor for compression).


I think the EeePC, which incidentally has it's own webcam, might be suitable with an USB video capture dongle (those capture from tape to record to disk things).

>>>>

CineForm believes there is a market here and we intended to pursue it.

the dream!
 

i think what everybody is dreaming about (like that cigarrete size talked here) is, at least:

if it is a computer:
1 - everything in one box
2 - no cables outside, just the hdmi
3 - one or two swapable 2.5 inch drive inside the box
4 - the touch screen lcd fited in the box with on off button to save battery
5 - a start stop with led indicator in a wire to put near camcorder
6 - swapable batteries inside the box

the better would be:
7 - no operating system if possible, or a simple menu with navigation
8 - like the firestore, of course, but a little bigger if needed...

Let´s give time to the time, and things happens...

You see, when you put together a 'dream' spec like that, you're essentially asking for one of these only a lot smaller and with potentially even more engineering required (no OS for instance).

That being the case you will inevitably end up with a product that costs more than the Wafian, despite the price difference between Intensity and Xena HLE.

things are going fast...
 

nice machine! note wearable, but nice! but just for who have the money! for the low budget i think a solution like this wearable with a better enclosure will be ok when the itx motherboard starts to hold a 3.0 ghz core 2 duo processor keeping the dc power... or the wafian could start thinking about the low budget hv20 owners like the canon did when developed it... the time, and forum members, brings the answer...

thanks

Something to watch: VIA EPIA SN-Series Mini-ITX Mainboards

It's supposed to have a PCI-Express x16 slot and four SATA II channels with native RAID support. Could be great for a simple mobile-capture box.

If you're looking to capture uncompressed, perhaps that board will work. However, it has an exceptionally weak CPU so any meaningful compression will not work.

I think I would rather have a Core 2 CPU and CineForm support and just the one SATA hard disk...

I've been following this thread for quite some time... with intentions of building a wearable computer system.

There's been a lot of talk about other codecs besides Cineform - BM MJPEG etc... why? Is there any benefit? Cineform seems (correct me if i'm wrong) to have the best cpu efficiency/quality ratio and has a decent data rate.

I have two questions:
1 - What IS the data rate capturing 1920x1080 8 bit Cineform? I know there are multiple "qualities"... is there a reference to a table somewhere with the different settings and data rates associated?
2 - Hard disks aside - Has it been confirmed yet if something like a Core 2 Duo T7600 (2.33) would be sufficient for a system like this?

Thanks for any info - great thread, Kevin.

Also, keep in mind realtime pulldown is not a requirement...

Dale

What about something like this:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16819111316

1) CineForm is internally 10 or 12-bit, even with 8-bit HDMI source, this is to reduce banding and improve the quality over regular 8-bit compressors. The data rate will also depend on the source, a soft low-noise source produces a much smaller bit-rate than an ultra sharp image with noise. Typically for today HDMI prosumer cameras, quality of High ranges from 10-16MB/s and Filmscan-1 15-20MB/s -- these are the recommend capture modes. Both modes will capture to modern 2.5" hard drives, or fast flash.

2) A T7600 2.33Ghz is on the edge for 1920x1080 at 60i, no issues for 50i and 24p/25p. T7700 should be fine.

3) Pulldown extraction makes the compression a little easier not harder.

Good deal - thanks a lot for responding.

Interesting that the pulldown makes it easier on the processor - guess that makes it doubly positive. (BTW, i did some test pulldowns with the HV20 and the trial of Prospect HD i believe, and it was doubling frames to make it progressive - is this normal?)

Seems to me then that a wearable computer system - Mini-ITX T76-7700, a couple gig of fast ram and a fast SSD drive and BM card would suffice for capture with the HV20 via HDMI @ 1920...

That is unless, someone (ahem... Cineform) with the knowledge and resources to do so could cut out all the unnecessary crap and create a box dedicated to the capture of HDMI sources using the Cineform codec. All streamlined and specialized... oooh bebe.

I know Colorspace(?) is creating something similar, but in the 10k range...

Anywho, great info - thanks a lot David.

Dale