Thanks Chris - couldn't see it anywhere on their spec sheet.

Wow! 2.8? So that's where a good chunk of the asking price is coming from! I'd love to have one but it's too far out of reach for now! Maybe the rental houses will pick them up though! The major one here is already hip to the 5D and has a couple that are always out on gigs.

Before you get overly excited about 2.8 at full telephoto, my $2000 FX7's do 2.8 at full zoom too.

It's too early to definitively say these new cams are overpriced but that was my initial knee jerk reaction along with many of you.

I suspect as well that a lot of the cost of this camera is in the lens. If it's truly L series glass, we might not see the CA issues prevalent in prior cameras.

My Canon XL-H1 has L glass too and does have CA issues. So don't get your hopes up high.

hmmm...why don't they take a 7d chip...put it in that body...with all the connections...and then add a removable lens...that works with all Canon EF lenses...

wouldn't that solve some issue....give people the DOF they want, removable lenses, the recording they want...

and then...add an external flash drive for high rate recording, instead of the 50mbps.

BUT...here it is...the XF305....

I'm still amazed at the price...when the 7D still camera is (body only) $1300.00 US.

Wish I could get a job a Canon as R&D....I'd take as many of your "wants"...and put it into a camera for 9k. !!

Okay...back to dreaming....I'll have to look at this closely at NAB.

...internal security would bury you right next to the guy that developed the 12-300mm 1.2 lens for under $200

Sounds obvious, doesn't it?

In reality it's not that simple. See the conclusion of my article at
APS-C or Full Frame CMOS Sensors? Not Happening in 2010 for the
explanation why.

"...many videographers wondering aloud if Canon will build a dedicated
video camera around such large sensors, with a properly motorized lens,
XLR audio jacks and an ergonomic form factor conducive to recording the
moving image. The short answer is no.

The longer answer is NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO. At least not yet, not
this year anyway, with several important reasons why it’s not going to
happen anytime soon. And here they are."

"hmmm...why don't they take a 7d chip...put it in that body...with all the connections...and then add a removable lens..."

You mean why don't they undermine their lucrative business in 20 grand lenses to put out a 6 grand camcorder?

hmmmm...Probably because they're not stupid.

Many posters here seem to forget that these companies are trying to make a profit, and that a surefire way to fail would be to produce something that makes their more high end models redundant. The first company to give DVinfo members what they want is likely to go bust very quickly, though i do wonder why a company like JVC don't push their heads above the parapet since they don't seem to have much to lose. Sony, Panasonic and Canon have vested interests in maintaining the status quo.

Actually Chris Hurd has already written an excellent article on why the DSLR technology has yet to make it into camcorderland. In the meantime i'm very excited about this camera which i suspect will be a serious contender alongside the eX1 and others when i upgrade later this year.

The really short answer, if you want a reason that doesn't
involve corporate politics, is that the lens just doesn't exist
yet -- and probably won't for awhile.

I was wondering that too Tom.

As well .. 3 onboard ND filters will hopefully avoid the need to add an external one which I have to do on almost every sunny day shoot with the XH-A1.

Any details on the audio .. do they have limiters?

Cheers.

Dom,

I'm the first to agree that every company has to stick to their profit makers. I'm just amazed that with the continuing dropping prices of this technology....they (Canon, JVC...etc) don't diversify a bit more.

Canon has done that...it seems...there are quite a few different camcorders in their line...in the 'couple of thousand' range. Probably more than any other company.

I'm looking to spend 40k plus on a new camcorder at NAB. I own a H1 and paid 9k for it. I thought it was INCREDIBLY cheap at the time...for the quality...and still love the camera.
But with camcorders now costing anything from 4k to 10k...it's amazing the quality coming from these tech wonders. And of course...don't you think Sony, Panasonic and even Canon are DELIGHTED to produce cameras at that level because they can probably sell 8 to 1 in that price range vs. a 40k camcorder?

Thanks Chris for the excellent article on whey a 7D chip can't be used in a current camcorder configuration.

Kevin

40K to spend? You lucky man. Any ideas what you're going to get?

"it's amazing the quality coming from these tech wonders."

Absolutely!

What amazes me is the image quality coming from many of the consumer camcorders. I saw clips playing from 600 quid cameras on the Canon stand at Earl's Court and was blown away. In fact it's sometimes hard to tell them from the prosumer models costing 10 times as much.

I also saw fantastic looking clips from Panasonics £2000 mini hmc41, but even the £500 cameras produce stunning pictures. I'm thinking of getting a "consumer" camcorder and just renting when i have a job that needs a "proper" camera. I still have my 5d mkii which i love, but i'm just not busy enough to justify having £5000 of camcorder sitting in its case at the moment.
You must be doing some serious business to be looking at 40k cameras. I wish you well, and let us know what you end up with.

Bear in mind though, that while the image straight out of a camera may look superb, once it's been down the edit chain, and even more so down the broadcast transmission chain it can often go downhill rapidly. This is where higher-level and more expensive codecs come in, coupled with better optics and processing.
Steve

Good point Steve, but am i not right in thinking that the images from the HV20 for example, are identical to the XH range of cameras as far as codec's go? And of course we want the manual features that the more pricey models have, but there are consumer models around that can seriously compete with the Pro cameras for a fraction of the price. It certainly makes sense to own one of these as a second camera IMO. I doubt most of my clients would be able to tell the difference.

I don't agree. With the current lineup and with tape capture in the Autumn of its life, there is a huge gap in the Canon lineup. Canon has is only 1 consumer tape camera with the HV40 and the current professional line A1/G1/H1 that use tapes. Now there will be a huge jump from the consumer to professional lines. Canon’s flagship consumer camera lists at $1399 and entry into this new line is $6700. If past price drops hold true they could end up at $5999 and $7199 range but this is still almost a $5000 gap.

With the release of the new Canon with SDI within $1200 of the G1S, sales of that camera will be VERY slow and I cannot see any further production. They might sell a few with a very heavy discount but it is gone. Not sure how long the A1S will be in production but with the A1S demise there will be a huge price gap in the Canon line.

Well I think that the HDV line will be out for a while longer to fill those holes.

Next camera release from them, I assume, will be the XL versions of these XF cams, which will most likely be even highed priced than the XF cams.

Absolutely right -- both are HDV. And the image from the HV series camcorders, under the right lighting conditions, can come close to matching that of the XH series.

That's right, and frankly I'd like to see something the same size and price of the GL2 in the AVCHD format, to replace the XH series HDV models when they're gone. Without the XH A1S or XL H1A, they'll have a big hole in between the HF S21 at $1400 and the XF300 at $6700 (and no, the D-SLRs don't count here).

Agreed...

And agreed.

Chris,
have you had a chance to see what the resulting image is with this new camera? INMHO I think it would be a shame if it doesn't exceed the look of what comes from their 5DMarkII. I don't think that we should have to spend $8K for a video camera that isn't better than a still camera.

I haven't seen it yet, but I will on Monday morning at NAB. My contact at Canon USA told me there will be ten working samples at the show (I assume these are going to be operational market test units, since the production models aren't shipping until June). From what I understand about their NAB booth layout, Canon will have several of them tethered to a hands-on counter for touch & try, plus a couple more in a shooting gallery. Usually they'll have HD monitors showing pre-recorded sample video on a playback loop, as well as the live output, so there will be plenty of opportunities to gauge the image output quality.

Considering that the D-SLR video is delivered only via some pretty intense line skipping and tends to suffer from some serious issues, I think it's a cinch that the XF series video will meet or exceed that of the D-SLRs in terms of image quality. I'm not hammering on the D-SLR's, after all I own three of them (5D Mk. II, 7D and T2i), but let's face it, we're talking about a large sensor that skips lines and bins pixels to get HD, vs. a new three-chip sensor block that was built from the ground up for nothing but HD. I think it's safe to assume that it'll be very good quality, but we'll all find out for sure on Monday.

Chris,
MUCH APPRECIATED!! Trust me, I have been a CANON loyalist and all of my video gear is Canon. I was on the verge of considering jumping ship to something else (RED), but now i'm happy again as they FINALLY included VFR on these cameras! Don't know what took them so long, but we finally have it. Wouldn't it be great if they could get it up to 120fps without having to get a RED camera? I know there are other options out there, but i tend to stick with one. Keep up the good work!

Chris, I assume you'll already find a way to do so, but could you please evaluate the high gain and low light characteristics of the camcorder on monday? It'd be much appreciated :).

Hi Randy, we'll be limited to the lighting on the show floor, which can be harsh sometimes depending on certain factors, but I'll see what we can do.

Chris will likely be operating in an environment resembling a garage forecourt, with strip lights etc. No doubt a reviewer will be given a camera to take it through its paces in the near future, but its a bit much to expect Chris - or anyone else - to make an assessment of a camera's low light capabilities at a trade show.

I'm hoping for a fast, wide lens myself, but i think we'll have to wait a little longer to see what this camera can do. There should be an EX1r side by side comparison on vimeo within a month or so, and then we'll have a better idea of how the new Canon stands up to the competition.

I have high hopes, but let's wait and see.

Having never been to NAB, I respectfully disagree with you Dom. I'm not asking for a full blown assessment of the low light of the camera, I'm asking for an impression. I'm chomping at the bits myself to discover how good this camera is in low light so any type of information in that regard is welcomed by me. Maybe those who want lux values and charts may not care too much for it, but I'm happy for any and all info.

At the risk of sounding too ninja-esque, I would say find a low lit spot in the booth somewhere and open up the camera's iris. Perhaps a corner that isn't lit? Under a table skirt maybe? I remember seeing pictures of a canon booth a few shows ago that was lit dramatically (ie. not fully lit) and had LCD screens on the top of the trestles. There was quite a bit of spots in that booth that you could point the camera at to see how it was rendering the image. Dark enough to see how bad noise was if the camera gained up.

Now if the whole entire NAB floor is blasted with light and opening up the camera's iris would result in nothing but blown out footage, then I take it back.

Cheers.

Randy

I've never been to NAB either and am basing my thoughts on the last 2 Canon stands at UK trade shows. On both occasions the cameras were tethered, so the idea of finding a dimly lit spot was not very practical. I'm trying to picture Chris lying under a table with a tethered camera but i'm not sure that would be very productive. We really want to see how the camera stands up alongside the competition, and while i'm sure NAB has a much wider range of gear than the London shows, i doubt there will be an EX1 under the table on the Canon stand.

Then again, perhaps the cameras at NAB are not tethered at all. I don't think they used to be in London until someone walked out of Earl's Court with a very expensive broadcast camera a couple of years ago.

As in most cases, the announced price are much more than the actual selling price. A new example would be the HPX370 in which B&H have set it to $9,200. Another example would be the NX5 which ends up selling for $4,000. Perhaps we'll see something like $5,000 to $5,500 for the low model. I think companies do that just to read people's reactions.

There's a much easier way. Could Chris take along some pretty hefty NDs and put those on the front, hefty enough to mean that not only does the camera have to be wide open, but also that a decent amount of gain has to be used. Then let's see the results on a representative, normal, general scene.

Ideally, the same filtration could then be put on competing cameras (the EX being the one of most interest) and we'll see how they compare.

The ND should be strong enough that so much gain is needed that the pictures won't look anywhere near good - that's not the point, it's the differences camera to camera that are relevant.

You missed my point. I'm all for seeing how it stands up against the EX1. I'm also looking for ANY inkling to how the low light is on the camera, unscientific as the test may be.... So even though there's not much value for some in having the camera pointed at a dark corner wide open, I'm happy to hear ANY news in regards to how it looks. Of course, I'm sure Canon will have some sort of footage up soon and all this will have been for naught.

David - Good suggestion. I was actually going to ask for him to turn on all the ND filters, stop down, then gain up but felt that was a bit counter intuitive to see how the low light is. However, it would show what kind of noise characteristics the gain has. The HMC150, in my opinion, has very "clean" looking gain at 12DB. The XHA1 looks like throwup at 12DB. lol Your suggestion of bringing along NDs would be interesting. Hopefully Mr. Hurd is game?

It's a great idea, but I don't have any 82mm filters and I'm heading to the airport in 36 hours.

It's definitely been known to happen, but usually not until much, much later into the evening.

In Las Vegas, everything is tied down... or it's gone. The wire ties spool out about a meter at the most, so you can't go very far with them. Canon's booth will have counter tops, not tables. I'll try to dig up some pics from previous shows.

Chris .. try using your own cards and slip one in in the hiatus don't forget to format it. To remove it shout LOOK! and point up at the ceiling. Have a great trip.

Cheers.

haahaha....this sounds like the same conversation I had with my biz partner over 14 years ago. We purchased an Ikegami HL-V55 in 1996. At the time...was one of the best betacam sp camcorders around IMHO.

At NAB...all the nice lighting is fine. I took the camera...spun it on the tripod...and shot up in the rafters of the LVCC and found the darkest area I could find. Then...pushed the gain.

Plus...also shot down an aisle in the mixed lighting at NAB...and could look at how the camera handled the mixed lighting.

That was then....this is now...

BTW...to get back on topic.

HDV will be around for awhile. It's a fine format for many things...

I've learned over the years not to be "snobby" about quality anymore. Use the tools and what they are intended for. HDV is super for many types of projects. When it's not...you go to something else. Nanoflash recording, HDCam, XDCam HD...etc. Use the tool for the job.

it's hard to think about that today...with multiple formats, codecs...etc. In the "old days"...you picked a format and stuck with it. Today...the playing field is VAST...and that's sooo cool...it's taken me a bit of time not to 'fight' it...but embrace it. So many options...that you can own for specific jobs. I still love my H1 and will use it for MANY jobs...but probably my next cam will be the Sony PDW-700 XDCam HD for other type of work we do.

Will I look at the new XF305 ? YOU BET...and buy one...yeah......if I can find some jobs that are perfect for it's design !

ENJOY NAB everyone ! Leaving on Sunday !

PS:...Chris...you do a great job with this site...and it's great to see all the people on the site in wonderful discussions like this.

Thanks for the pics Chris. That looks just like the set up in London. Perhaps it IS the set up in London?
The travelling Canon roadshow!
Enjoy the trip.

I was really thinking along the lines of a selection of 4x4s, as used in a matte box, and just holding them in front for the purpose of this. Then the same filters could be applied to different cameras regardless of filter diameter. I don't suppose anybody going to NAB could take something along for Chris to try?

Failing that, then yes, at least putting all the camera ND the camera possesses in and gaining up may give some idea - it just won't give a comparitive result between the Canon and other cameras.

If I get the time I'm going to take my ex1 over to the canon booth and put it side by side with a 300, that should be quite telling.

That would be awesome Alister. A personal opinion on comparable gain settings between the two to your naked eye would be appreciated :).

Alister's opinion would be worth a lot more than mine!

It's not just SDI output, it's also genlock and timecode in and out.

SDI can be used for very long cable runs, well over 100m.

TC in and out means that all cameras on multi camera shoots can have matching TC, greatly speeding up sync in post.

And genlock is a must for shooting stereo 3D, it's the best way to insure that the cameras are truly in sync.

You gotta love it...11 pages in 3 days and I think it was 6 pages the 1st day. The cameras looks great and addressed A LOT of things people have been asking for....stops on the lens, bigger LCD, and a surprise to me, HDMI on the lower priced camera, not to mention the impressive new codec. I look forward to seeing them on Monday morning. I think for the under 10k crowd, these cameras are going to do very well.

Jim Martin
Filmtools.com

PLease please please do!