How to Output 4K on Canon XF405

[Brock Burwell]

Let me first say that I am aware that the SDI port only allows 1080p, but the HDMI will allow you to output 4k but I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong...

At my church we just got the 405 and, while we are still broadcasting in 1080p, I assumed we would get a better image when outputting 4k as opposed to 1080. Our first service with the camera we ran it with SDI and our second service we used HDMI (into an adapter that converted it to SDI to plug into our computer) but for both services the image looks the same.

Any particular reason for this or something I need to do on my end?

I'm pretty sure I have all the settings correct. There is a setting that allows me to switch it from 1080 to 4k, but when I did that last night at church, the computer stopped receiving our image. No idea why

[Christopher Young]

First two things that come to mind and maybe worth checking are: 1) Are you using a high speed v2.0 or v2.1 HDMI cable certified for 4k 50/60p and 2) What capture card are you using on the PC and can it accept UHD at 3840 x 2160.

Chris Young
Sydney

[Pete Cofrancesco]

I'm not clear on whether you're saying your computer isn't receiving 4k or that it is but you don't see a difference?

Some where a long the line that 4k has to be down res to HD. When you film in HD the camera is doing it otherwise the computer will. IMO 4k down res looks a little sharper but not much. If it was me, I'd film it in the same resolution its being broadcast in.

[Ron Evans]

I think your HDMI converter to SDI to the computer cannot take 4K and is likely just 1080

[Brock Burwell]

Originally Posted by Christopher Young

First two things that come to mind and maybe worth checking are: 1) Are you using a high speed v2.0 or v2.1 HDMI cable certified for 4k 50/60p and 2) What capture card are you using on the PC and can it accept UHD at 3840 x 2160.

Chris Young
Sydney

Good suggestions, but we are using the proper HDMI cables (I double checked and tried a second one that's good with no change).

We also just recently upgraded our computer so the capture card is able to accept 4K

[Brock Burwell]

Originally Posted by Pete Cofrancesco

I'm not clear on whether you're saying your computer isn't receiving 4k or that it is but you don't see a difference?

Some where a long the line that 4k has to be down res to HD. When you film in HD the camera is doing it otherwise the computer will. IMO 4k down res looks a little sharper but not much. If it was me, I'd film it in the same resolution its being broadcast in.

But you are saying that it probably won't look much better regardless? The only reason I'm not sure is because one of the cameras we are shooting with is a GH5S and it looks insanely good and we are shooting it in 4K and even though vMix is downscaling it to 1080, it looks incredible. So when I saw the footage of the 405, that made me think that maybe it is not actually shooting in 4K. But now that I'm thinking about it..........

.....I now remember that we are currently outputting the 405 at 1080 because there is a setting that says something about Output and its currently on 1080, because when I would switch it to 4k, the signal inside of vMix would vanish. The output would just go black in our software. When I would switch it back to 1080, it would return. So I'm not sure what that issue is with that. The GH5 doesn't have this issue and let's us output 4K no problem

Any suggestions?

[Brock Burwell]

Originally Posted by Ron Evans

I think your HDMI converter to SDI to the computer cannot take 4K and is likely just 1080

Good suggestion - we purchased one specifically that allowed 4K. It's a Rocketfish brand, which I know isn't the best, but it still markets itself as a 4k converter. I hope that's not the issue.

[Ron Evans]

What is the SDI card in the computer. If you want to match the full output from the camera I think that could be 12G SDI ( 4KP60 ). If the computer SDI is only 3G SDI it can only do 1080P60

[Pete Cofrancesco]

Originally Posted by Brock Burwell

But you are saying that it probably won't look much better regardless? The only reason I'm not sure is because one of the cameras we are shooting with is a GH5S and it looks insanely good and we are shooting it in 4K and even though vMix is downscaling it to 1080, it looks incredible.

I filmed with my Panasonic UX90 (4k camcorder with 1" sensor ) in 4k and HD. I took a still of each with 4k down ressed. If you can correctly identify them you win a lollipop.
1. https://photos.app.goo.gl/4jQQYVqTPDFntf1h7
2. https://photos.app.goo.gl/Z6fbZYy5ZG1MMz8S9

[Brock Burwell]

Yea, those are very close, so point taken.

Just for the sake of the game, I would say #2 is 4K and #1 is 1080 haha

[Pete Cofrancesco]

Originally Posted by Brock Burwell

Yea, those are very close, so point taken.

Just for the sake of the game, I would say #2 is 4K and #1 is 1080 haha

You win the the lollipop! Yes 2 was the 4k. I actually learned something I didn’t know or forgot about my camera that it must have a sensor crop at 4k.

I get it you bought a 4k camera and you want to use all its 4k glory.
Back to your question. You have to examine each link in the chain to insure it’s 4k compatible.

1. Camera: obviously has to be set to film in 4k. The output needs to be set to 4k or to current resolution.
2. HDMI cables
3. Adapter Convertors Hdmi to sdi has to be 4k
4. Sdi cable
5. Capture card
6. Mixing software/hardware

Even if everything is working like I said before you still might not see a difference.

[Brock Burwell]

Originally Posted by Pete Cofrancesco

You win the the lollipop! Yes 2 was the 4k. I actually learned something I didn’t know or forgot about my camera that it must have a sensor crop at 4k.

I get it you bought a 4k camera and you want to use all its 4k glory.
Back to your question. You have to examine each link in the chain to insure it’s 4k compatible.

1. Camera: obviously has to be set to film in 4k. The output needs to be set to 4k or to current resolution.
2. HDMI cables
3. Adapter Convertors Hdmi to sdi has to be 4k
4. Sdi cable
5. Capture card
6. Mixing software/hardware

Even if everything is working like I said before you still might not see a difference.

Haha that's actually why I chose the second one!

These are good points. I'll see what I can find out

[Pete Cofrancesco]

Originally Posted by Brock Burwell

Haha that's actually why I chose the second one!

These are good points. I'll see what I can find out

I’m actually not very happy. I wasn’t unaware of the crop until I did that test. In fact there is larger crop than you’re seeing. I had to zoom out quite a bit to try to maintain the same framing. So for 4k it actually uses less of an already relatively small sensor. I’ll have to read the manual again but I don’t believe they disclose this. Is too much to expect that when you buy a camcorder, that it actually uses the full sensor?

I assume since you were looking for that its common practice for 4k camcorders?

[Brock Burwell]

I don't know much about camcorders and only recently began to learn about them because of getting new ones at church, but it's pretty common for DSLRs to have a crop when switching into 4K. My DJI Mavic 2 also has a mode where it gives you the absolute best resolution it can and it gives a pretty significant crop.

So yea, it's fairly common

[Pete Cofrancesco]

Originally Posted by Brock Burwell

I don't know much about camcorders and only recently began to learn about them because of getting new ones at church, but it's pretty common for DSLRs to have a crop when switching into 4K. My DJI Mavic 2 also has a mode where it gives you the absolute best resolution it can and it gives a pretty significant crop.

So yea, it's fairly common

I knew about crops but had only heard about them in regards to full frame sensors. I guess it's common practice of the industry use all sorts of misleading descriptions. It just irritates me learning that I've been deceived even though the image quality hasn't change.

I also found out 1" inch sensor isn't 1" inch it's far smaller

https://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/one-inch-sensor.htm

I took a still of what the 4k crop looks like its about 73% smaller.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/cixTtW1LRs76haTX7