Do you re-use your tapes?
 

I'm a bit new to hdv, so I wondered if reusing your tapes once is okay? Do you reuse tapes with your XH A!? If so, what tapes are you using?

Tapes are cheap enough that it's not worth the risk, IMHO.

I would agree. The problem is that I ordered some tapes for a wedding I have tomorrow and the tapes didn't arrive. So I'm stuck with once-used tape stock.

Slip over to walmart and buy a few before your wedding in the morning. Regular Mini DV tapes would be better than trying to record over an HDV tape. J

Ditto on that. Regular MiniDV tapes will work just fine. Just get the same brand of the regular tape (i.e. if you use Sony HDV tapes, grab some Sony MiniDV tapes -- same difference, really).

I use Panasonic tapes. The local walmart carries only Sony I believe.

I would still rather use a new sony tape than a used panasonic tape. I use sony and have no problems. J

I was just worried about the old "never mix Sony & Panasonic tapes" routine that has been around since DV was introduced.

Reusing tapes
 

Bad idea, no matter what. It is not worth taking the chance. Even with HDV tapes, you can shop around and get them for under 10 bucks. It is all about planning, order enough stock ahead of time so you don't get into that kind of situation.

I never reuse tapes, but in your position I'd rather reuse a Panasonic tape than switch to Sony. IMO, mixing tape types carries a higher risk than reusing a tape. Of course if you can get some new Panasonic tapes it's even better. :)

Richard

I have a tape that I re-use as a "crap roll" - usually for when I'm recording sound tests. Nothing on the crap roll is intended to be part of the final picture.

Well guys...........
 

Just a thought to rain on this "do not" parade.

Till now I have never re - used a tape for HDV capture.

Whilst pondering this, as a result of a query elsewhere on DVinfo, it occured to me that, despite using the best grade tapes possible, brand spanking new, I was still getting what I, and probably anyone else, would consider excessive dropouts.

So, with that in mind, I did a trawl for "hard evidence" that re - using Mini DV tapes, and errors thereon for HDV capture, was affected, one way or the other, by usage.

The result? Nothing. Nada. Niet.

I, personally, have found no hard, documented evidence, anywhere, to support the "do not re - use tape" stuff being spouted by so many people.

This would "appear" to have gone into mythology, in a similar way "using camera to ingest to NLE wears heads out in 15 minutes" rubbish that CH has kyboshed so many times it must be getting absolutely nauseating.

My answer:

Well, considering I can't re - use my "old" tapes as they are, in fact, my "vault" of shot stuff, not a lot.

If I can identify one that can, indeed, be sacrificed to the greater good, sacrificed it will be - but if Mini DV tapes behave the same as tapes have for the last 30 odd years (and have got better with each passing year at that) then they probably have a life span in excess of 300 passes minimum.

Passing on "percieved wisdom" has it's place, but old wives tales really aren't much good to anybody.

If anyone can point me to any body of hard evidence that supports the "don't" view, I shall most happily recant. Till then, untill someone does the hard work to actually document this, I'm simply not buying it.

Think I'll put the hard hat on.

CS

I started re-using tapes for things that are not critical and have not found any higher rate of drop outs or other problems. At this point I don't think re-using a tape once or twice is a problem and would not be afraid to use them for your wedding.

As an interesting note, not long ago someone on this board said that they always re-used tapes because a used tape had been proven to work without problems. Just as he would not use a brand new camera, microphone, or any other piece of equipment for a critical job that had not been tested, he had more faith in a tape that had previously proven to work well rather than a new unproven one.

Many people 'stripe' or 'black' their tapes, which means that they record blank footage over the entire tape before they use if for recording an image. All these people are thus re-using their tape for the real event and I have not heard of increased problems from people that do this.

I do a bit of filming for a weekly news segment for one of our local TV stations and have a set number of tapes that I use for this.

My experience to date is that I can get away with recording over each tape three times.

On the fourth recording I start to see dropouts.

This is SD by the way.

I also have a mix of Panasonic and Sony tapes and haven't experienced any problems so far.

I had a scratch tape that I re-used about 20 times before it become completely un-recordable. It started generating all kinds of drop outs and head cleaning messages. In the end I gave up on re-using tapes mainly for convenience. It's just easier to throw in a new tape everytime and label it afterwards.

I usually buy about US$150-200 worth of tape stock, so I always have tapes handy. Plus there's a slight discount at B&H at those quantities.

I don't reuse tapes because I keep all my original forever, or give it to the client. Generally I spend more money on pizza and coffee and donuts on any production than on tape--less than 8 bucks an hour (Panasonic AMQ)...there aren't too many things that cheap and reliable these days. But if you're a hobbyist and not getting paid, ie., just shooting for fun, then I can see reusing tapes.

I never record over original camera tapes if I can help it, but more because that's my archive rather than fears of causing drop-outs. I also use my camera to record the master copy of my edited programmes, and in this case I often re-record the edit 2 or 3 times as I discover spelling mistakes in captions or fix other last-minute problems. I always play them back, just to check and have only once noticed a glitch introduced during recording over an existing signal - that that could well have been due to any of the things that normally cause drop-outs when recording to tape.

Not reusing tapes primarily came from analog tape recording days. On an analog tape, the signal to noise ratio needed to be optimium and there could even be bleed through if the tape wasn't erased correctly or the erase head was not working properly.

Remember using electromagnets to erase old tapes?

Digital is a much easier format to record. How tough is it to record a 1 or a 0? If you wanted to be sure of a best quality recording to a used tape, mechanically erase it using an electromagnet so you don't have to depend on the camera erase head maintaining contact with the tape.

Also, most "dropouts" or "tape problems" are actually recorded data errors. The ts format is error correcting (ec). Satellite uplinks and downlinks use a similar ts format for transmission because the ec is so robust. You don't see many dropouts on satellite.

But, wouldn't it be easier and safer just to buy new tape?

A dropout or other record problem a new tape may appear as a stutter in the image, perhaps visually a brief pause/freeze witha break-up or gap up in the sound

A record problem on a reused tape may appear as a glimpse of the previous recorded material (video and sound) during playback.

Is a new tape better than a once-recorded tape? depends on the quality of the tapes involved and the strength of the erase/record signal in the camcorder.

If recycling a previously recorded tape, be sure it is one you will not miss. And there is probably a higher risk of a subsequent playback issue when recycling tapes that were recorded on a different machine.

You gotta do what you gotta do to get the job done, deal with any problems in post, and learn from the experience.

If using a different tape formulation it is usually a good idea to do a head cleaning first.

That was me LLoyd, and forgive me, I'll say it again.

There’s still an impression out there that used tapes are somehow inferior to new ones. I’m still wary of the fact that one hour MiniDV tapes can be bought for little over a pound a piece, and as 17.5% of that is tax (in the UK), they can’t cost much to begin with. A lot less than a M & S sandwich, for instance. Being so cheap suggests that there’s some pretty expensive highly automated machinery at work, and that there’s precious little in the way of human inspection being carried out.

Which is why I say that if you’ve used a tape and know it to be good, that’s the same as using your microphone and knowing it to be good. So I’m not afraid to reuse my tapes over and over again, and these days they’re being put to quite a test – recording HDV.

But as I say, there’s still a hard core of people who equate used tape to mean inferior tape, and they tend to work under the impression that as it’s so cheap, then you should always use new. In fact tape is probably at it smoothest and best after it’s been burnished by the spinning heads a couple of times, that will have knocked off all the high spots and imperfections.

It's odd that most people instinctively think of re-recording a tape as "re-using" it but see no likely problem with playing it back repeatedly -- or even running it back and forth over the heads for log-and-capture. It’s all tape re-use.

For really important projects I would push the boat out and step up a notch from the everyday Premium grade to the Sony Excellence, the professional grade DVCAM or tape labelled for HDV. Many claim there is no difference between grades, but I’m a firm believer in that you get what you pay for, and more expensive tape will have been slit from the centre of the wide ribbon and may well have had further polishing operations to ensure the lowest possible dropout levels. For HDV this is really important, as the same dropout will affect far more frames than if you had been shooting in standard definition.

Two more thoughts. Don't 'black' tapes and don't mix brands in your camcorder.

tom.

Heard that sony uses a wet lubricant and pani uses a dry lubricant and that if you use pani tapes in ANY MiniDV cam and then go to Sony it can seriously screw the heads up. Try circuit city or best buy for pani tapes. I had to grab some of the cheapys there to keep from shooting over some old tape.

Wet/Dry is old news, and the related problems, and solution, date back to the early days of MinIDV (i.e., 1990s) and tape stock from that era. Panasonic and Sony (the major tape makers of that day) got together and resolved the underlying lubricant incompatibility issues.

There still are potential issues when changing tape stock, but they are not due to the the lubricant type question.

The potential issue I see with recording over previously recorded tape is one caused by minor variation in tracking and tape path over the heads. If it is not a good tracking match to the originally recorded material, there may be some residual of the original material left on tape, and this may cause an issue on a subsequent playback. This is not common, but may explain some infrequently reported problems not directly traced to a head clog.

I have recorded over panasonic tapes a few times without any dropouts on my A1's. I only do this on non-crucial projects however. I wouldn't suggest recording over tapes more than 3-5 times due to tape stretch. Can someone elaborate on the dry/wet compatibility issue? Is it ok for me to play back (not record) Sony tapes in my A1 when I primarily use Panasonic? Is recording on different tape stock more of an issue than just playback?

Just did on my last shoot (not my budget), just about couldn't finish the project due to the broken/garbled time code all over the place...even ignoring TC breaks, FCP had problems capturing.

Larry, the record or replay of a tape doesn't in any way affect what a tape may or may not deposit into the tape path inside your camera. The tape passes the same heads at the same speed in record or replay, and that applies to the capstan, pinch roller and many guides, pins and rollers from feed to take-up spool.

Same with using a head cleaning tape. Works every bit as well in the record as in the replay mode.

Like I say - I wouldn't mix tapes in your camcorder as you're doing. But I say this and happily play anything and everything in my DSR-11. But I won't in my cameras, oh no.

tom.

When I do projects for fun I often re-use tapes, and I have never experienced any problems doing that.

When any tape plays it leaves a some deposits behind on the tape guides, rollers, heads and other contact points in the tape path as a result of normal tape wear.

In the dim distant past (the early days of MiniDV in the 1990s) , there were essentially two types of MiniDV tape, Panasonic and Sony (some other brands were relabeled Panasonic or used Panasonic-type components). They used different type lubricants. But the lubs were incompatible in that if the deposits mixed, they would form a gunk/gum that would cause especially bad head clogs.

When this was discovered, the large number of problems and complaints was costing both companies money and reputation, resulted in Panasonic and Sony working out the differences and standardizing on compatible lubs that eliminated this problem. About this time, there was a MiniDV tape shortage - Sony announced one of their tape production facilities had a fire and was off-line. There were some rumors that the fire was cover for making the change at Sony, and that Sony was shipping tape with some Panasonic-manufactured components during this period. It is worth noting that Panasonic is part of Matsuhita Corporation (who also owns a 37% interest in JVC, down from a controlling interest up until last August).

So this tape lube issue is old news, and only applies to very old tape stock. However, tape will still leave deposits behind, and deposits can break free and cause head clogs, especially if tape with different mechanical characteristics is used after a long diet of one tape type. Thus you can still get head clogs, and they are somewhat more likely after a change in tape brand, but not anywhere near the problem of the early days. Running a cleaning tape will reduce the likelihood of a clog.

Buy in bulk and never re-use. I've just taken delivery of 500 tapes ready to be used!
:o)

I only use tape for back up these days. I record using OnLocation in a laptop.

However, I normally reuse tapes 5 times for critical and toss them at about 10 reuses. At 10 recordings occasional dropouts start to happen though really not often. I've actually used some tapes 30 times and they were still OK. Figured I was pressing my luck though.

I like the redundancy of disk + tape. There tend to be some little problems with each but rarely on the same frames. Having both has saved me in post several times.

I just received my FireStore, so now I don't have to use tapes at all. :)

You'll be happier in the long run if you tape too, as back up. Several MONSTER catastophies avoided for me that way.

Which one? I'm pondering getting one too.

I just got the standard $740 FS-4 HD model from bhphotovideo.com, not the FS-C which was $400 more. The standard works just fine with 24f .m2t files (tested it last night), and I don't need the more expensive models' transcode to Quicktime because Vegas handles .m2ts natively with help from Cineform.

Camerapeople that record to Firestore, HDD, MiniDVD, flash memory and so on all come home with the problem of how to store the raw footage up on the shelf. Invariably their footage is recorded to some form of HDD, which we all know has a finite and ill-defined lifespan.

Those that shoot to tape simply place the raw footage up on the shelf. It's incredibly cheap, reliable and compact, and I for one quite like it. So what do you Firestore guys do - junk the raw footage and only keep a master edit of the event? On tape or DVD or HDD?

tom.