What Camera should I buy? Canon XHA1 or Panasonic HVX200
 

Hi guys, I’m in need of some help and expertise and since many of you know cameras better than me, I thought id place up a thread for some help.

The camera I have at the moment is a Sony HVR-V1E.
Some of my work can be viewed here: Sam Hendi on Vimeo

I’ve had my camera for about 2 years but recently I haven’t been too happy with my camera. I’ve been feeling to change because of many reasons. One of my main reasons is because I don’t see that the HVR-V1E gives me professional look like film even though I am using the Letus35 extreme. Its mainly due to the motion of the frame rate and with whatever I do (interlace or progressive) I still see unpleasing results. I’m also trying to stay away from Sony and want to try something different.

So I’ve been researching into these two cameras: XHA1 and HVX200. But I’m not too sure which one would ideally be better for me. In my new camera, I am ideally looking for a professional film like quality with the frame-rate mainly and of course its quality of image.

I’ve found some interesting videos filmed with the XHA1 and the film-like quality that has been shown is amazing, not to mention that the videos are amazing too:
Short film (XH A1 with SgPro) on Vimeo
SIMON (full version) on Vimeo

From looking at those videos, I can see that they have used an adapter and the quality looks amazing. The frame motion looks like a film and the quality of the images also looks like film. This is a large difference from what my Sony HVR-V1E camera will give me using my Letus35 extreme.

Whilst researching the HVX200, I found these great videos too:
Letus Ultimate on the HVX200: First Test on Vimeo
YouTube - Slamdance short: A LITTLE MOUTH TO FEED teaser trailer

Could anyone please tell me the advantages and disadvantages of both the HVX200 and XHA1??
One of my biggest problems is the P2 recording on the HVX200, since id like to keep a backup of my raw files on tape, recording onto a P2 card will be a problem. But im not too sure of any problems with XHA1. Does anybody know any??

Would anyone know of a better camera than these two??

Since I don’t actually where I should post this thread, I decided to post it this forum since im edging towards the Canon more than the Panasonic.

Any help would be appreciated.
Thanks
Sam

If your not happy with the V1 I don't reckon that you will be much happier with A1 or HVX.

I have shot with all three and they are all great cameras and gain in slightly different areas, but I don't reckon that you will be blown away with the difference. The main area is that the A1 and the HVX are better in low light than the V1.

HVX is a great cam but the P2 cards are just ridiculously expensive... I would be looking for an upgrade to the Ex1, heaps better cam, great picture, better in low light and now with the SDHC etc etc media is cheap as chips.

or Scarlet.... it looks like things are starting to move in the RED camp.

Jon

I'm with Jonathan - apart from having chips that are a bit larger the Panasonic and Canon don't bring many features to your table that you don't have already with your V1. And it somehow looks like chalk and cheese to have the 200 and XH together as one is twice the price of the other once you have a P2 card loaded.

There's nothing wrong with either camera of course, and their sales success shows you'd be happy too. But I always think that if you're dissatisfied then a leapfrog in kit is better than a sideways step, that way you grow into your new camera rather than growing out of it.

The EX1 will be that leapfrog move for you but although it gives you more dof control than either of the 3 cams mentioned, it sounds like you'll still hanker after the Letus' look and have a lot more weight to lug about.

You ask about known problems with the XH-A1. Well, apart from the tiny side screen those problems have been addressed neatly with the s version recently announced.

tom.

I went with the A1 because I needed HD tape backup as well. Having said that, I ended up adding a firestore and a Letus adapter and and external monitor... It added up.

When I was shopping for cameras, this video convinced me to buy the A1

http://jerkki.shotti.com/vault/Felix...eatbox720p.wmv

no adapter, no lighting, just good shooting.

If I were buying today, I don't know what I would get. Things are changing so quickly right now. If you have to buy now, the A1 is not a bad choice.

M

The higher resolution trailers are now up for the new Crank movie, shot with the XH A1 and a bunch of smaller single chip cameras. Dumb movie, but great looking footage:
Apple - Movie Trailers - Crank 2

Some of the best looking footage I've seen is that clip about the canal boats in the Netherlands (I think) that's on here someplace.

When I got the XH A1 I looked closely at the HVX200 also. I was interested in it because of its slomo capability. But I didn't like having to use pricey P2 cards, the tapeless workflow and the lower resolution of the camera compared to the Canons and Sonys. As far as slomo goes, I've seen some recent excellent XH A1 slomo, shot 24F and slowed down with Twixtor. It was a boat on a river going across the screen. You really couldn't tell it hadn't been shot slomo originally. So that 60 fps is not a big deal anymore for me.

I like the HVX200 itself. It's heavy and seems well built and the lens is good and is as wide as the XH A1 but the XH A1 has a much longer zoom and is overall a more useful camera for the type of things I do. The new upgrade to the original HVX has more resolution I believe but still not as much as Canon or Sony.

Also, I agree with the above posts. If you can't get a look you want out of the camera you have, you're not going to get it out of a new camera either. It's about composition and lighting, not the camera. Any of the 1/3" chip HD cameras will do a great job. The only advantage for you out of a camera with 1/3" chips versus your 1/4" chip model is that bigger chips allow you to use a little less light.

Sam,

Your "Trunk" short film looks pretty good. It has a few rough edges but works overall.

I shot with the XHA1 and do not get appreciably better results than you from it (although hard to tell given compression on Vimeo). I don't think you would be better served by a XHA1. I've looked over the EX1 and seen some nice footage, it might be a step up but I myself wasn't entirely convinced it deserved it's asking price. The biggest benefits of the EX1 for my needs would be better low light and shallower depth of field. However I too use the Letus Extreme on my XHA1 so I've solved that hurdle.

Sorry I can't offer you anything concrete...nothing in our profession is based on much more than opinion.

From my own standpoint, I am willing to work with what I have for the next year or two and hope that something like Scarlet or another major advance really comes along. 1/2 chips for the EX series cams are not a radical upgrade. A full 35mm chip...well that's another story.

Hi there guys, thanks for the replys.

Im not too sure about getting the HVX200 since it will be double the price when i get my P2 card.

But id probably want to stick with the Canon.

Im not expecting a huge difference between my camera now and the canon but i was hoping that i could be able to change since ive had my camera for two years.

I am just wondering, has anyone used Canon XHA1 footage with Sony Vegas?

Thanks for the help.

this video was great, both content and shooting...would have sold me too, but I saw a stephen dempsey movie first, and like a lot of people, bought one for that reason haha

Absolutely Sam. Been working with a XHA1 for two years now with Sony Vegas 7.0d and more recently Vegas Pro 8.0c. Also use the XHA1 footage with Premier Pro CS4 and After Effects CS4.

Any specific questions?

Yep Im a Vegas user as well.
Capture from XH-A1 into HDlink then edit in vegas 8.
No issues with cineform and vegas works with native hdv with no issues either.

Sounds good, what kind of rendering outputs do you choose (24p)??

you do have an option of using a firestore with the panasonic as well, to avoid the expense and extreme headache of P2

after using the canon and pana significantly in all different kinds of situations, I'd definitely recommend the canon. The panasonic footage looks cartoony in comparison, and remarkably devoid of detail. The sharpness is similar between the two cams, but the Canon resolves much more detail. And it has significantly better low-light performance, and more accurate color rendition.

The only thing I can't stand about the canon is the full servo lens. At least the pana has a manual zoom.

Have worked with all 3 of the canon formats 60i, 30f, 24f. Each for different reasons.

For the majority of my stock footage work I will shoot and render in 60i. This is also true if I want to do any slow motion in post, I would shoot in 60i there again. For most television broadcast applications this format is the most universal in North America.

30f I usually shoot and render if I will be incorporating the footage into any motion graphics typically destined for computer display. The motion graphics projects are rendered out as 30 fps progressive.

24f I use for short narratives and actually for most of my wedding work. It generally gives a nice film cadence to the footage and has benefits of lower shutter speeds for lower light situations like weddings and event videography.

All the best,
James

Thanks for the help guys, i am really tempted to buy the canon now (my first choice).
I need to sell my Sony first.

What is a full servo lens? What is the problem with this?

Im quite excited to be getting my Canon XHA1.

Servo lens means that the focus and zoom rings drive the optics through a electronic mechanism rather than a manual machine mechanism.

This means two things specific to the XHA1....

Somewhat non-realistic feel to the action of the focus and zoom controls on the lens. This also elimantes the use of barrel marks on the lens for repeatable settings (there are ways around this however). While it's not as nice as a true manual lense it's still quite usable.

With the XHA1 (possibly fixed in the XHA1s), you cannot control BOTH zoom and focus at the same time as they seem to run off a single servo. Typically not an issue but for some things like rack zoom+focus (think Alfred Hitchcock "Vertigo" here) it is not really possible with the lense.

This was fixed on the XH A1s.

Instead of marks on the outside of the lens, you get a distance readout in the viewfinder and LCD accurate to 1/10 of a foot. That's better than marks on a manual lens because you can shift focus yourself without an assistant.

I own an XHA1 and I say: Go with the Pany! If for no other reason than avoiding HDV and getting to shoot on DVCPROHD.

Mmm...I'd rather have BOTH lense markings and LCD information. With a servo it limits repeatable ways to rack zoom/focus (apart from the Position Presets which is very mechanical and limiting). It's not a major limitation by any means but it is a consideration and can be improved on with a true manual lens....with the tradeoff of increased price of course.

Thank you for the help guys, it has helped me a lot in making my decision.

Im putting my Camera on sale on ebay tomorrow and will be looking to purchase my Canon XHA1 next week.

If anyone is interested in a Sony HVR-V1E please let me know.

Thanks again.
Sam

I agree with the poster who said that the options you're looking at are "sideways steps".

It's a shame you feel you need to keep using tape, because there are better options out there IMO. The HMC151 is an excellent camera and does not use HDV or P2. Then there's the EX1.
Perhaps you should get your hands on an XHA1 to see if it is indeed superior to your current camera.
I write as a happy XHA1 owner, who's decided to go tapeless at the first opportunity, and i'm looking at the HMC, EX1 or even the new JVC.

I will not be buying another HDV camera. It was great in it's time - and it's price point - but has been superseded by superior formats.

To top it all, the XHA1 is actually more expensive than the HMC, in the UK at least.

Of course, if you need to stick with tape, the A1 is probably the best bet.

Prices are on the rise Dom. I've just learn that the 151 is going up by £400 from today, so I presume Panasonic are doing this because Sony and Canon have upped their prices too. I'm sure it's just exchange rates at play.

You're right Tom. When I was looking at the HMC last week the retailer pointed this out to me. It's all to do with the Pound/Yen etc.

I think I'll have to do another gig with my XHA1 before i can justify the change. Perhaps Canon will have something new by then.

Such is progress. You shouldn't be looking at the 151 either if you believe the hype, as 1"/3 chips are ludicrously small. Canon do have a 1.6x CMOS (used in the 50D and so on), so it would make sense for them to utilise this in their next Red-bustin' camcorder.

But as I've just said in another post, I often like to finish a firework display at the end of a wedding film by putting the last and biggest firework into my variable slo-mo program. The rocket tales off at normal speed but slows gracefully to a still frame at its peak before I fade to black. You won't be doing that with a CMOS chip.

tom.

I have the XHA1 and while I love the camera I'm looking into tapeless recording.
The only thing in the same price range as the XHA1 is the upcoming Scarlet fixed lens.
Since I don't need a new camera soon I'll wait until Scarlet comes.
From all I've seen at the moment it will blow away the XHA1.

Is there a difference between the Canon Xha1 and the Canon Xha1s???
Which would you say is better?

Yes Sam, and much has been written here. It'll only take you a monment to find the differences using the search box.

I shot on DVCPRO50, and as a word of warning, it doesn't integrate with Vegas, which I think Sam mooted. AFAIK, the same applies to the HD100, as well. Fine with FCP, no play with Vegas or Premier (to my knowledge).

Raylight is a fix but I've never used it.

John,

Why use HDlink to capture instead of just going straight into Vegas?

I'd recommend the XH-A1.
This is the video that convinced me - Letus Extreme and Canon XHA1 - First tests on Vimeo

I chose the XH-A1 over any sony camera simply because I hate all Sony products.
Just personal preference.
Horrible tech support, warranties, and products.
Everything is either too complicated, DRMed, or too weak.

It also came down to backup tapes and price.
I wanted a nice HD camera, and the HVX200 looked amazing, but at the time (6 months ago) it was more expensive and the cards are still at a ridiculous price.

If you want a good strong camera with tapes, go with the XH-A1.
It's an amazing piece of technology.
-Kevin

Roger sorry for not replying sooner but Ive been busy lately, the easiest way to answer your question is to just point you to the cineform web site

Cineform NeoHd

but the most useful feature is the 25p to 24 p conversion during capture, it does a great job. (25p is not blu ray legal)
cheers john