lux rating of the XH-A1/G1
 

What is the Canon lux rating system, and is it compatible with Sony's? I mean, within the Sony range, the 7 lux of HC1/A1 vs the 4 lux of the V1 vs the 3 lux of the FX1/Z1 is pretty consistent (and translates to reality well, with the exception of course for the V1 which hasn't really been tested yet). The XH-A1 specs show some "0.4 lux (manual mode)" - how does it compare (in theory at least)? Kaku Ito's night taxi ride clips are quite impressive - naturally dark, I'd say, with not much noise.

THe 0.4lux is only 0.4lux as i beleive (by memory) they stated in brackets the shutterspeed used and it was very slow ! So you can do that with any camera to get a "better lux rating". The Sony ones are quoted at default shutter speed of 1/60th NTSC and 1/50th PAL. You have to use the same shutter speed for this lux rating to mean anything at all, and even then, across manufacturers, it's highly flaky as it's essentially a judgment call as to when an image degrades sufficiently for it to be called "unusable".

So I think to get a handle on this, you'll really have to do a back-to-back test in identical conditions etc. From what i've read, the Canons' look like they're going to be pretty good in lowlight.

Interested
 

I too am interested in this. If there isn't anything concrete yet, does anyone know how well the XL-H1 fares against the XL2 in 60i for low light? I can't see, to find this info anywere on the net. Thanks in advance,

Chris

I personally find the XL2, with 1/48 shutter in lowlight, 0 gain, all the way open, is not great. I know it's asking alot, but I hope the XHA1 sensor's are simply better equipped for low light. That taxi footage is encouraging :)

I am not against gain, but the brighter the image is to start with, the less you need.

If they are using the XL H1 the low light performance should be equivalent.

As a former user of FX1, A1J and HVX200 (which is the least comparable), both H1 and G1 I tested were so easy to shoot in the dark.

How did the gain hold up?
Did it hold the blacks well when the gain would be up to let's say 12-15db?

That's one thing I noticed about the FX1/Z1 cameras, as you could go up to 18db and the camera would still hold the blacks, and not look real grainy like my VX2100/PD170 would.

In other words the cameras gave a fair representation of wht was being shot. If the lighting was dim and the room was dark so was the video, but the blacks held up well without being grainy when gain was introduced.

I just talked with a representative of one of the best if not the best UK video stores to talk about my upcoming HD camera purchase. I asked him his opinion about the XL-H1 and if he had hands-on experience with the new Canon camera's. He has tried them out and likes them very well. He also said that they perform better in low-light then the Sony HVR-Z1E. Which is quite good, and confirms what we have seen in Kaku's night footage. From what he has seen, the image also is of the same high quality of that of the XL-H1.

So looks like we have two low-light champions coming up.

Sounds great, can't wait to get my twitchy hands on one.

If any of you early purchasers of the A1 or G1 can do a direct comparison to the FX1/Z1 in lowlight conditions, that would be greatly appreciated!

I will be able to. I have a couple FX1s here and hopefull will be getting my A1 soon.

Oh, he also said that viewfinder is not as good as the one on the XL-H1. I did not ask how it was compared to the one on the HVR-Z1.

Daniel: great, thanks ... it will also be interesting to see if the canon's footage can be matched to the Fx1 in post. If I recall correctly, the GL2's footage didn't match up very well to the VX2000/PD150 ...

I have a question.

I usually use mostly auto mode, on my VX2100.

It does good in low ligted rooms and so forth.

I know that most of you use manual settings. But is there anything showing or describing the low light performance of the H/A-1 in auto modes?

thank you
Jerry

Auto Mode continually changes not only shutter and aperture, but as required will increase the gain (and therefore change the video noise level) to get what the camera judges is an appropriate exposure. So measuring low-light capability in Auto Mode is really a "desperate case" assessment and a moving target. This also brings up the difficulty with lux specs ... each manufacturer, if not each different camera, uses its own methodology to make a lux claim. Also, exposure is affected by custom presets such as gamma curve, setup, and pedestal. So it is really tough to get true apples to apples comparisions. The nearest fair approximation to compare different cameras is either to optimize each cameras settings or set each camera to default, and then do a side-by-side shoot.

Low light comparisions have been one of the most common requests lately. I don't have any other manufacturer cameras, but since I've been too lazy to put my old cameras up for sale, I have a GL2, an XL2, and XL H1 that I'll do a quick-n-dirty side-by-side test on. We don't know, but presume that since the XH cameras use the same sensor as the XL H1 (although different processing algorithms), their sensitivity ought to be in the same ballpark.

BTW, I've noticed that one of the XL H1 modes (I think 30F, but I can't remember for sure right now) has about 1/2 to 1 stop less exposure than the other modes. Again, don't know that will be true with the XH cameras, but probably so.

Thanks Pete again

Yes I would assume the auto mode would do much like the still camera, change shutter speed etc for best shots. And thanks for telling me which camcorder you use, I just asked that in another reply.

And it seems from all the replies and further reading I have done since posting this that the A1 will be much like the XL's in this matter, which would be nice. I think I will be an all canon person after this, as my DSLR's are all Canon.
<Smiling> I know what you mean about selling. I had thoughts of selling the VX2100 when I make this jump, but I too am a bit lazy in that dept. I still have a brand new Canon Elan 7 and 2 10d's, that I have stashed and never even considered selling after upgrading to the mkII's.

Thanks
Jerry

Mine will be in shortly. I will compare it to my FX-1. I also own the HV-10 and the colors are excellent!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Can't wait.

Thanks Lou....color is important also.
I will look forward to your comparison. I had thought the FX-1 way was how I would go at first but then realized it had been out for a long time and decided to look for newer technology.

Thanks
Jerry

That's not a valid comparison--the GL2 is a 1/4" chip camera and the VX2000/PD150 have 1/3" chips.

If I recall, it was more of a color issue, than a lowlight issue ... so I'll be interested to see if the new Canon is just as distinct, in a color / softness of picture sense.

comparison sony vx2100 vs sony hvr a1u
 

can anybody tell me just how bad the low light capability is on the sony hvr a1u? i know that it is a relative question but basically here is my situation: Im searching for a camera in the $2500 range. after all of my research i find the sony hvr a1u, the sony vx 2100, and the canon gl-2 in my price range. I thought the a1u was the winner but have recently been turned off by the reviews on the low light capability. Now im very new to this whole scene, so when they say it is bad can it video good quality in a candle lit room cause i really need something that can video in low light. is the vx2100 (3CCD) the better choice in this situation? I know i would be sacrificing HD for SD. also does the vx2100 have the XLR input capabilities like the a1u? thats important to me. please someone help the newby!!!!

Sony has changed that. Now they will also use 1/25 shutter for lux readings if the camera has to ability to go automatically to 1/25 shutter. For example the hc7's lux is rated at 1/25 for pal.

Chad -- note that both Sony and Canon make HD cameras called "A1". Your post is in the Canon XH-A1 forum, but probably would have been more appropriate in the Sony forum. The Canon would be a better choice as far as low light capabilities, but it's a bit out of your price range. But even the Canon may not give you good video quality in a candle lit room. HD needs light, or bigger chips like in the Sony EX (even more out of your price range).

The VX2100 does amazing things in low light, and if your final output is standard def DVD then the resolution isn't noticably different from down-converted HD (to the typical viewer). It does not have XLR inputs -- you can add an XLR adapter like a Beachtek box, or get a PD170 which is the same camera but with more pro features. You might want to consider a used one. VX2100's regularly come up for sale on DVinfo, and they're typically very well cared for. Its also a tank, and the heads supposedly last 1000-1500 hours so buying used can make a lot of sense. You should be able to see the classified section after you've been a member for 30 days and have made a few posts (not sure what the minimum is).

-Terence

FWIW on LUX ratings.

There is an industry standard (EIA-639 I believe) for consumer camcorder LUX ratings, but it is not clear whether or not any manufacturers follow it for any given camcorder, from what I've seen, they often use their own standard that mays not map to other makers standards (or even their own for other camcorder lines) but is one that allows good marketing spin. If the spec does not cite the EIA standard, it probably was not used. As I understand it the EIA standard was developed for NTSC camcorders and does not really address MiniDV or HD formats.

The measurement standard for consumer gear is something like:
1/60 shutter speed (for NTSC)
Auto exposure and auto white balance mode on.
Zoom near wide (a maximum aperture for the lens setting)
A bright white target produces a 50 IRE luma level.
A 2% white target produces 4-10 IRE (i.e., NTSC black remains NTSC black, not applicable to DV formats where black = 0 IRE).
Chroma level for a red target is at least 25% of the bright illumination level
Not less than 17 dB luminance signal to noise ratio measured using an 18% gray target
Resolution is at least 70% of bright illumination case.
And that is not a very good picture.

Full up professional gear uses a different measurement standard that includes a brighter picture, and much better signal to noise ratio.