Audio Confusion
 

I just recently switched from the Sony HC1 to the A1 and I have been using a beachtek adapter for xlr on the H1. Today is the 1st time I tried to use the built in A1 xlr's (both at the same time) and I need some help. How do you get xlr 1 to play in both left and right headphones and xlr to play in both left and right headphones? I know I am missing something simple. Great forum!

Dave

Hi Dave, welcome aboard!

See page 48 of the manual. In the camera menu, go to Audio Setup and set XLR Input to On. Then check the switches on top of the XLR input block. Set the input channel selection switch to CH1 - CH2. This will insure that the audio coming in to the Channel 1 XLR input is fed to both channels at the same time. You don't have this feature on the Channel 2 input though. If you have two separate inputs, each one will go to its respective channel; they can't be mixed in the camera. If you need them mixed together, that'll require a portable field mixer between the XLR input jacks and your incoming audio sources. Hope this helps,

If I do that I get no sound from the 2nd lav. I am really bad at explaining things. Basically I plug in both xlrs. Through the headphones one xlr comes in the left speaker the other in the right. How do I get both xlr's to come in both headphones


Dave

The labeling of the mono/stereo switch in the XL and XH cameras isn't necessarily intuitive. The long name of button 12 on p11 of the manual is "Where you want the output of the Channel 1 XLR jack to go." If you set that button to Ch1+Ch2 you'll get mono from XLR1 and XLR2 will be dead, whereas if you want stereo from the XLR's, set to Ch1, and then XLR1 will only record to the left channel and XLR2 will record to the right channel. The headphones will monitor whatever that setting is. As Chris indicated, you can't mix the two channels in-camera; the jack is for monitoring the audio output.

Yeah, sorry but it's not possible to mix the two channels together in the camera. If you want both audio sources mixed together so that they're both going down each channel, you'll need a portable field mixer as I said. Shure makes a good little unit with three inputs and two outputs that will do what you want.

Thanks guys! My audio knowledge is weak. I just found it strange that I could plug in my Beachtek xlr adapter and get what I was looking for. I suppose you copy paste in post to achieve "stereo" like results. Thanks for taking it easy on the newbie!!

Dave

When you shoot with two separate mics on two separate audio channels, you generally want them to be separate on the tape. That way, if one channel is hotter than the other or if one picks up some noise, it doesn't affect the other.

Later, in your editing software setup, you should be able to choose whether your two channels of audio are dual mono or stereo. You want them to be dual mono -- and then also make sure the "pan" setting is in the middle if you want both audio tracks to be in both the left and right channels equally. The "pan" setting controls where you hear each channel -- you can have either channel all the way left, all the way right, or anywhere in between. You can control your soundstage with the "pan" control -- you can have #1 person on the left, in the middle, or on the right, and also the #2 person can be anywhere you want -- hopefully so it matches what you see on screen. If you originally record with the channels mixed together, they'll both be dead center, and you can't change that.

If your Beachtek gives you both channels in both ears, you've got the m/s switch set wrong or the plug doesn't match the camera -- it should keep them separate as well.

It may not make sense, but to get the "stereo" sound from two mics on two different people, you want your edit program sound set to dual mono, and not stereo. The stereo setting is only when you're recording the same thing with two of the same mics, at a distance from each other, but at the same levels -- like the way your ears work.

And to bring this back to the XHA1, you need to set the switch on top of the xlr box have the sound from xlr1 be separated from xlr2.

chuck

Thanks! I did have the Beachtek set wrong. (Lack of knowledge) I used the xlr's off of the A1 last night and they we're split meaning 1 into left 2 into right.

Now in Final Cut is the pan setup easy to find/grasp? I am not in front of FCP now so I can't look at it. I alsays assumed if you had audio from a source that you brought in and it was only on 1 side you just copy/paste and ta da dual mono. Right?

Dave

In Final Cut, I think the dual mono channels have the "pan" setting set to the middle by default, so even if you have sound only on one channel, you'll hear it in both. No cutting and pasting required, unless you have it set to stereo instead of dual mono.

In the "modify" menu, there's an "audio" submenu setting to pan a clip left or right or center, or there's a slider in the viewer window.



chuck

Thanks a lot Chuck!


Dave

No Independent Volume When 1 Chnl Into 2
 

Well, tonight I ran into a serious drawback to the XHA1 audio.

On most cameras, you can run a single shotgun mic into both channels and then set the volume separately on left and right. This is desireable when you have widely varying sound levels -- you can set one channel higher than the other and then choose which one you use in post.

On the XHA1, if you run the xlr channel 1 into both channels, you can't control the volume independently. I hadn't needed to use it before now and was very surprised to find out it wouldn't work.

aaaarrrgh


chuck

That's news to me. You're saying that when Ch1 - Ch2 is selected, the Audio 2 pot is disabled, and whatever level you set for Audio 1 is duplicated to Audio 2. Bummer. Good to know that however. Thanks for pointing this out Chuck,

Correct. I couldn't believe it and spent way too much time going through menus to try to find a way to override, but no go. The attenuation switch on ch2 doesn't do anything either, when ch1 xlr input is set to Ch1-Ch2.

Wow, that sucks, but I guess it could be worse, at least you can get an XLR splitter and run the one mic to both channels via the splitter. But at a camera at this price point you would think that would be a givin, especially since all of the previous canon cameras with XLR's had this function.

Right -- but when you really really need that feature, you're in run-n-gun panic mode and don't have time to dig out a splitter.....

Has anybody checked in the menu to see if there's some function you can switch to change that? This is not good.

I'm looking at the manual now and it says:

3. Set the input channel selection switch to Ch1 or Ch1-Ch1

This is on the chart on Pg 48, in the left column uner XLR input terminal
it lists CH1 and next line CH2.

Next column is Position of the Input Channel Selector Switch, and the third column is Recorded Channel.

My interpretation of this is that you set both input channel selection switches to CH 1, but you have a cable coming into both Ch 1 and 2. If the input switches are both set to CH1, according to the chart the recorded channels will be Channel 1 and Channel 2.

Can somebody try this and then see if it allows individual channel control?

The XL2 and XL H1 are the same way. Except for the addition of the mic/line switch that the XL2 didn't have, and the XH cameras being strictly 2-channel (no four channel capability; if you use 12-bit, ch3 and ch4 are blank) the audio switching in all these cameras is identical. So, two things that people have asked about that the audio system in the Canon cameras doesn't do:
- The volume levels on the two channels cannot be independently set when set to Ch1.
- The single mic/line switch works for both XLR jacks. You can't have two XLR mics with one at mic level and one at line level. You're either in mic or line level for both XLRs.

EDIT: Bill, that chart is the long way 'round to describe what I said in post #4. It definitely is confusing; I've looked at that same chart in the XL2 manual, the XL H1 manual, and now the XH manual and I STILL have to stop and think it through every time I read it.

Ahh, yes, I guess your right, I was thinking of the DVX, my bad. I guess they really couldn't have made that any more confusing.

That's how it was on the XL2 also. I posted before in the XL2 forum that they really should label that switch with an arrow like, Ch1 -> Ch2. This setting essentially duplicates channel one onto channel two and yes, the volume for Ch1 is the sole control.

I agree with the others that maintaining separate channel levels using both pots would be desirable for keeping one track at a lower level.

-gb-

This is really bad news indeed. Until this I was pretty sure I will order A1 next week (when PAL version is supposed to arrive here). But for my use it's very important to have separate control for ch1+ch2 when using one shotgun mic. Uh.. I really hope this is just firmware error.

It's not a firmware "error." It operates that way by intentional design (unfortunately). It is an annoyance, but I don't see how it could possibly be a deal-breaker for you. Simply connect an XLR splitter cable between the mic and both inputs... problem solved.

Not a deal-breaker, but all these things affect for my own V1/A1 battle. XLR splitter is solution, but I always want to keep things as simple as possible. Buying a new cam is always making + / - lists. For me it is very hard decision between Sony V1 and Canon A1. This audio thing only made me so disappointed because the A1 has looked almost unbelievable promising tool ..and still is ;)

I always use an XLR splitter to record to both channels so I can keep one down slightly, but I guess I'm misunderstanding this thread. I thought people are saying you can't control them independently. What am I missing here? I just shot with a friend's XL2 and do the audio that way--good audio into channel 1, down a few db into channel 2 in case the subect gets louder. My understanding of the manual was that the A1 could do that too, but my understanding of this thread is you can't, but then Chris is saying you can?

I need more coffee, I guess--been up since the wee hours for the shoot.
And now, I'm waiting on the damn UPS truck. My A1 has been sitting at the UPS warehouse since last night. It didn't make the morning delivery, so hopefully it'll be here before 5....

Here's the short answer, Bill:

Use a splitter instead of the Ch1-Ch2 switch, and you have independant level control.

Use the Ch1-Ch2 switch instead of a splitter, and you lose independant level control.

The switch simply duplicates Ch1 and its level over to Ch2. In this case, the Ch2 pot is ineffective. No need for a splitter, but no separate volume control either. If you want one mic at two different levels on Ch1 and Ch2, then you'll have to use a splitter. No splitter required if you don't mind having the same level on both channels. Hope this helps,

Thanks for the clarification. I always use a splitter when shooting interviews and run channel 2 down a bit from channel 1, so no problem at all here. Cool.

Bill, I think the confusion is coming from people that have been using other cameras, like the DVX. I have used it for years, plugging one mic into Channel 2, you can then set channel one to record from channel 2 input, and channel 2 to record from the same, but you have volume control over both of the them independently. But truthfully I don't see what the big deal is having to put a dang XLR splitter, about ($9) on the end of their mic cable and just leave it there. If you have to use two channels no problem, if you only have to use one, just take it off.

The XLR splitter is a great thing. I made my first one in the early '90s and one lives in the camera bag, another in the audio bag. I consider them essential for shooting anybody who speaks.

Another audio annoyance
 

I love my new A1 but...

Am i wrong or does the Line in/mic apply to both Inputs? Hence you can't easily run an external mic into input 1, and a line feed, say from a mixing board, into input 2. Yeah, I know you can externally pad the line feed down, but this means that your kit now has to have both a splitter and a pad, two more little things to get lost on a busy shoot.
And come to think of it, those two level pots are cunningly designed to be hard to adjust and there is no on screen meter to tell where they are set.

I'm having flashbacks to my XL-1 which required the Beachtek to get servicable audio.

Pretty picture though...

You are correct. The line/mic switch applies to both XLR jacks.

That is a serious design flaw in my opinion. I can't tell you how many shoots I have done where I need one line input and one mic input.

Also, it looks like you have to set both channels to either auto or manual level control and that you can't set them independently. Someone please correct me if am wrong on this, but that is the way it appears to me from the photos of the A1 I have seen (I don't currently own one).

From the beautiful clips that I have watched this appears to be a great camera, I just wish that Canon had thought the audio through a little more...

See this recent thread:
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=77391