A1 audio hissing?
 

I just read a Canon A1 review in the German VIDEOAKTIVDIGITAL journal. They find the audio much more hissing compared to the FX7. Can anyone confirm or - hopefully - dissaprove this? Thanks, Michael Mann

A1 Audio
 

I've been looking for info on the A1's audio capabilities also, but haven't found any. Seems that this would be an important item. Do most users here record audio direct to camera or to a separate audio recorder? Do you use a mixer?

Thanks.

I record directly into the camcorder, without mixer. It would be very helpful to know whether the hissing - if any - comes from the onboard stereo mic (minor drawback) or from the A1 mic preamps (major drawback!).

Fellow A1 users - please share your audio test results! Thanks, Michael Mann

I shot an interview last week. The audio sounded perfectly OK to me. No hissing, no weirdness at all. I doubt anybody could tell it didn't come from the DSR500, the other camera I shoot with. I used the same mic and setup I always do for interviews--a Sennheiser MKH60 on a fishpole mounted on a C-stand, positioned over the subject and slightly in front. Due to the quick and dirty nature of the interview, I didn't use a mixer, but went through the cameras's mic inputs.

I notice very slight hissing through the headphones, but not recorded to tape.

Just a couple things to think about:

Any hiss in the audio will sound louder with earphones than speakers.

Low cost condensor mics typically have a high noise/hiss level.

Low output level mics will require more amplification for the same audio level, which means any preamp noise will be more apparent in the recording.

Use of AGC can result in noise level pumping, the noise level comes up during otherwise silent portions of the recording.

I recently made some audio noise tests with the Sony FX1 vs. a $ 2,000.00 Sound Devices 702 flash card audio recorder (very high quality mic preamps), external mic input, manual gain control. Results: The mic preamps of the FX1 are surprisingly silent!

That is why I was alarmed by that German review saying the A1 produces much more audio hissing compared to the FX1. But maybe they left the AGC switched on while testing ...

I don't know if I would trust a review that defines "white noise" if that is what it said as Audio Hiss. White Noise can come from many sources. Automatic Gain Control devices, poor cables, older mics. These days Mics even low cost ones blow many old mics out of the water when it comes to noise "S/N" Signal to Noise ratio. Again RODE mics (I don't have any) but I have tested them and they are in many great studios, have some low cost mics that have very low S/N. The on board Canon mic is a little noisey. I ran some audio through them and yes they have some White Noise. Probably but (I am not a tech) due to both the Mic and the Electronics. That said though the S/N is really not that bad compared to some DAT recorders.

An out board mic is going to give you better results. Add an out board mini-mixer and some good preamps and the S/N will be even better generally speaking.

Mackie makes some very inexpensive really great little mini mixers that are used in Live/Post recording

Hopefully this helps.

You have to be really wary of posts that talk about audio hissing with no documentation about mics used, their placement, levels, etc. Remember when the PD150 came out and had the hiss problem? An early model run did have an issue under certain circumstances, and it was fixed, although Sony got some bad PR in the way it was handled. But even with later models people were saying there was a hiss.

For a long time, every time I read about a hiss issue I would ask where the mic was placed, what the levels were, etc. And I never got a response. I have intercut PD150 footage with DSR500 and DSR250 footage, and with a Tascam DAT deck with no problems at all. I would not go out and record a classical music concert with any video camera and expect excellent audio, but I have recorded various rock music things, through a mixer with house audio, and got very good quality audio with a variety of video cameras. Also, I've never had a professional soundman complain about the quality of the video camera recording--they've always got good audio under all shooting situations. Generally I use a Sennheiser MKH60 shotgun mic, but have also used a long AKG (don't remember the number) and an older Sony short shotgun with equal effectiveness. We have Lectrosonic wireless systems with Countryman lavs, and I recently bought a cheap Sennheiser M2 wireless, the one that's 500 bucks, and it works great, although the included mic is not great (I'm getting a better mic soon).

So far my only audio experience with the XH A1 is an interview I shot last week, and I have another one coming up early next week. I have total confidence in the audio quality. I never use an on camera mic and couldn't care less how it sounds. Well, that's an exaggeration--I do have a Sony shotgun I mounted on the camera that I'll use for ambient effects, traffic noise, etc. And one time I got caught with no mic and the opportunity to shoot a good interview and did that with the same Sony mic on the camera and got useable sound; but that's very rare. I would not buy a mic to mount on the camera if I didn't already have one. The built-in mic could be left off and it wouldn't bother me at all.

Audio Test
 

One test I'd be curious to do if I had the camera is connect a mic like an ME66, MKH50 or something with similar sensitivity to the camera, set it 3 feet from a person speaking in normal conversation, set the gain on the camera so that the signal peaks around -6 dBF. Take the same setting into a very quiet room, and just record the room tone. Play the recording back on an NLE, and if the audio signal from the quiet room peaks below -60 dBF, I'd think that would be pretty usable.

I never shoot any audio that peaks over a -12 to a -11. I'm not hearing any problems at all in shooting quite interviews.

One apprach to evaluating the internal preamp noise levels:

Using you intended mic, set manual gain levels to suit your application.

Remove the mic.

Record some more and then see what the noise level is on the segment without a mic attached..

If you are a purest, when you disconnect the mic, replace it with an XLR connctor that contains a ~200 ohm metal film resistor between pins 2 and 3. (which should be close to a good mic's output impedance.)

That should give you a good idea as to what the noise floor of the audio system is in your application.

Don,

that sounds like a good test. Would someone with an A1 be willing to try it and let us know what you find?

It curious that when any new camera comes out, there lots of postings for video quality and nothing on audio. I guess that's why they call 'em video cameras.

As for myself, I'm satisfied with just a decent picture, but I'd like to have really clean audio. If I get the A1, I'd only be using it's SD mode for now.

Thanks.

Videoaktivdigital is a journal for the amateur filmer, I don't take it very seriously, but until now I did not hear any sound hissproblems on the A1. No complains heard. You also started the thread that you are worried about the 'SIGNIFICANT (chromatic?) aberration' you saw on the A1, as I speak no one saw that in that extreme either.

Are you a little over worried?

Yes, I am.

Nevertheless ... I have finally decided to get the A1 - hissing or not, fringing or not.

Sometimes I'm surprised that people are not more demanding of audio performance ... When the picture is analysed under such scrutiny, you'd think that people would do the same for the audio! But clearly not. Generally I feel that the performance of the pre-amps in this level of camera is largely unacceptable- 'adequate' for docu/interviews so long as you're close to the source and volume levels are good, but certainly not for any critical or cine type work.

Do people just accept that anyone wanting serious sound will be running through an external mixer...? And that the internal pres are only for situations where audio quality just has to be "good enough"?

The image will please you. You sold your Sony Fx1, how did you do the sound with that cam?

@ Kris, I do feel sound is very important, and the use of a mixer gives you more possibilities and quality, even so the use of good mics, good placement and good mixing. You need to spent some money do get it done, and the sound person will pay out too.

With this A1, the cam and image it self is not expensive, so you should shovel some $ to sound department, but even with a good mixer you end up with mpeg layer compressed sound. If you really want it all: buy the mixer the good mics and a flash recorder.

I used a Beachtek XLR-Adapter (attached to the FX1) and a Sennheiser MKH 418 (MS-Stereo).

Like I wrote before: The mic preamps of the FX1 were surprisingly silent! My Sound Devices 702 flash card audio recorder (very high quality mic preamps) was "only" about 8 dB lower in noise.

Michael, in this case are the pres not in the beachtek? Noisefloor of a line-level input is a completely different matter, it should be very quiet even at the prosumer level :)

>> ...performance of the pre-amps in this level of camera is largely unacceptable- 'adequate' for docu/interviews so long as you're close to the source and volume levels are good, but certainly not for any critical or cine type work.<<

In general applies to any built-in camcorder mic, or for that matter, any almost mic used more than a few feet from the talent. For critical applicaiton, one should use dedicated audio setup for the venue and applicaiton, and sync in post.

Waiting to hear (well, read) report of any actual tests.

Kris, I should have been more precise here, sorry:

No, the Beachtek I used (DXA-6 Phantom Adapter) is passive, that is it has no preamps, it just enabled me to phantom power my Sennheiser 418. So it were indeed the FX1 preamps that I tested vs. the preamps of the Sound Decives.

Don, I think I am going to do a preamp noise test Canon A1 vs. Sound Devices 702. But I need a couple of days to get started.

Why using a Beachtek xlr adapter for the Sony FX1 (with unbalanced audio) if you have the brand new (in the EU:this summer) flash recorder SD 702?

But I tell ya, the Sound Device 702 is way beter and more silent than the A1 or the FX1.

The people who market video cameras know that men in general are visually oriented creatures. We are titillated by big breasts, big CCD's, pretty faces, pretty pictures. Picture appeals to a more animal instinct than audio so it is easier to market.

Actually, the recording environment for typical camcorder use is usually pretty dismal - most people do not use a comcorder in a recording studio or TV studio for that matter, with well controlled acoustics and suppressed noise sources - so having high-end audio capability is not important in camcorders. Keep inmind that broadcast audio, even FM radio, is not all that great when you consider the noise floor (S/N) and bandwidth. If high quality sound is important, serious folks use separate audio capability.

Since I started the thread:

Meanwhile I tested the built-in mic of the A1 myself (just my subjective impression). Result: I cannot notice any unusual hissing noise, even in automatic gain mode. I would even say that the A1 mic (auto mode) sounds better than the FX1 mic (auto mode)

But I am still going to do a precise test of the A1 preamp noise against that of a Sound Devices 702.

Hello Michael,
I have also read the article, it is ridiciolous. Overall, it is biased more to "how do I please my main advertiser?" -in this case, Sony.
Some days later, I checked a G1 one while waiting at a local reseller:
I will definately buy it!
And Kris:
Cinematographic work does not yield better sound - unless you have the abilities to overdub a diologue in the studio, which as one example, was recorded on a crowded street. In my experience, there is no difference between feature/show sound an documentary sound.
But having already sound-designed and mixed a full feature lenght documentary which was shot on the FX-1, recording as close to the headroom as possible results in a better sound. When I have to raise a quiet atmo in post, i hear all the chirping by the encoders. So having a DAT for atmospheres is not wrong - and of course a field mixer with a very good limiter for dialogues, interviews etc.
All the best, Salar

Zee germans again ;)

So what do you think how the audio quality of the A1's mic preamps compares to the ones of a DVX100? Until now I was quite satisfied with the quality I got by directly recording from my MKH416 with the DVX's audio input switched to mic and activated phantom power... would the A1's quality noticeably worse?

I guess I could live with a little less quality... it's the last thing I have to find out before I'm finally sold.. :-)

Cheers,
-Sören

I've been shooting interviews whith the XH A1 using a Sennheiser MKH60, mic input. No problems at all. It all sounds great. Better, actually, than the DSR500 I normally use.

Hi Sören,
well the 416 does some audible hgissing, doesn´t it? - At least mine does.
I use it with a field - mixer from SIE, a now perished German company, which built some thousand units for the ZDF in the seventies. The SIE is like a SQN.
When I plug the mic directly into my Panny, the sound is more weak an lacks at bit of bass compared to the SIE. I did not have the opportunity, to test this mic with an A1 / G1.
Cheers, Salar

P.S: You know, from where MOS comes from?
"Mit ohne Sound"