24F Not Good Enough For Film Transfer At DVFilm?

[Marcus van Bavel]

Originally Posted by Todd Mattson

Are you requesting this for DVFilm's internal usage in determining what will be the best for future customers, or for potential client use? More to the point are you needing footage from the H1/A1/G1 to run tests at no charge to the footage provider, or a test for the footage provider at their expense?

It would be a no-charge test, and the results would go on our website and onto our 35mm demo reel, which has samples from many different DV and HD cameras. Whoever provides the footage gets a free print, and our demo reel is typically loaned out free (or for shipping costs) or can be viewed free at our facility here in Austin or at the film lab that we use. There are other ways to view the reel, for example at a private screening room or movie theater, however there is usually a charge for that the filmmaker must pay.

[Meryem Ersoz]

marcus, i'm frantically running around trying to get out of town by thursday, but if i simply snail-mailed you an XH A1 HDV tape using 24F mode, would you be able/willing to use it?

[Todd Mattson]

Originally Posted by Marcus van Bavel

It would be a no-charge test, and the results would go on our website and onto our 35mm demo reel, which has samples from many different DV and HD cameras. Whoever provides the footage gets a free print, and our demo reel is typically loaned out free (or for shipping costs) or can be viewed free at our facility here in Austin or at the film lab that we use. There are other ways to view the reel, for example at a private screening room or movie theater, however there is usually a charge for that the filmmaker must pay.

I just PMed Barlow Elton, since he just did a test, not the 24F vs. 60i, but 24F HDV vs. 24F 4:2:2 component out, hope you can use that as well....

[Chuck Spaulding]

Excuse my sarcasm, but it took you guys 43 posts to get to the conclusion that you need to do a test. Brilliant!

"And now for something completely different." -- DON'T do the test!

I think its great that Marcus is kind enough to do a test and post the results on his website. Problem is there will be some idiot(s) [you know who you are] who will read the results of this test and think, "all I need to do is turn this dial thingy to 24f, use my professional grade $10 9" LCD monitor on set and those nifty looking accurate waveform and vector scopes in FCP and I'm all set for a film out."

Then when it looks like crap, because it probably will, you [idiot] will need to spend a lot more money correcting the myriad of mistakes that were made because you were too cheap to take the time and do a test for YOUR production. Good for the company doing the transfer not so good for the producer.

What do you think your going to feel like when the first time you screen your pride and joy and the blacks are muddy, there's little if any detail in the highlights and there's more grain than there needed to be? An idiot?

[sorry didn't get a lot of sleep last night. Chris, sorry for using the "I" word...]

[Todd Mattson]

This is not in place of a project specific test, as per the rest of his site, it is in conjunction WITH a project specific test, perhaps even guidelines FOR making that project specific test.

This is not the only end result of the thread, this thread verifies that 24F IS acceptable for transfer at DVFilm.

[Chuck Spaulding]

Originally Posted by Todd Mattson

This is not in place of a project specific test, as per the rest of his site, it is in conjunction WITH a project specific test, perhaps even guidelines FOR making that project specific test.

This is not the only end result of the thread, this thread verifies that 24F IS acceptable for transfer at DVFilm.

I'm guessing that if you have about $40K [0.30 per frame] then 24F is acceptable.

[Todd Mattson]

Originally Posted by Chuck Spaulding

I'm guessing that if you have about $40K [0.30 per frame] then 24F is acceptable.

And the test, I guess, is to find out exactly just how acceptable 24F is....and for the most part, it's usually a case of someone else having 40K, and finding your 24F film sooo compelling no matter what format, that it's surely worth it for them.

[Jack Jenkins]

Chuck, the spirit of these boards is RESEARCH. Regardless of how many of us actually ever print one F or P frame to actual filmstock is not the point. You cant just say "never gonna happen" whats the use. I agree measurebating can get annoying but its useful to a degree. I may not see the 80 line vertical difference between 60i and 24f, but I am glad somebody researched it and discussed it in detail, so I know what the sacrifice is when using 24f. The point is if anyone ever finds themselves in the position of being able or needing to do a film out or even just wondering how decent a film out would look, not only will they have specs on how to do it but real live test results as well. Research for research sake may seem pointless, that is until you absolutely need it.

And by the way, lots of filmmakers make short films, and some of them make film outs for these 5 - 10 minute long films ($2250-4500), so its not such an unthinkable possibility that some A1 film outs are gonna happen.

[Jung Kyu]

if going to film print..i would suggest to use...hv20

http://www.camuser.co.kr/cam_vm/VID_...3/mokryun2.wmv

[Barry Richard]

Originally Posted by Jung Kyu

if going to film print..i would suggest to use...hv20

http://www.camuser.co.kr/cam_vm/VID_...3/mokryun2.wmv

beautiful footage -- in bright light at least equal to the A1

BTW -- the video seems to stutter -- how was it encoded ?? what bit rate, codec, frame size etc did you use -- was it shot 24F ??

[Tony Tremble]

Originally Posted by Jung Kyu

if going to film print..i would suggest to use...hv20

http://www.camuser.co.kr/cam_vm/VID_...3/mokryun2.wmv

The whole point of this test is to compare 24F with converted 60i and since the hv20 does not shoot 24F it would seem strange to suggest it.

I'd just like to thank Marcus for engaging with the spirit of the thread. Cheers!

TT

[Jung Kyu]

here's low light footage


http://www.camuser.co.kr/cam_vm/VID_...007/03/low.wmv


manual exposure from -1 ~ -12

[Todd Mattson]

Originally Posted by Jack Jenkins

Chuck, the spirit of these boards is RESEARCH. Regardless of how many of us actually ever print one F or P frame to actual filmstock is not the point. You cant just say "never gonna happen" whats the use. I agree measurebating can get annoying but its useful to a degree. I may not see the 80 line vertical difference between 60i and 24f, but I am glad somebody researched it and discussed it in detail, so I know what the sacrifice is when using 24f. The point is if anyone ever finds themselves in the position of being able or needing to do a film out or even just wondering how decent a film out would look, not only will they have specs on how to do it but real live test results as well. Research for research sake may seem pointless, that is until you absolutely need it.

And by the way, lots of filmmakers make short films, and some of them make film outs for these 5 - 10 minute long films ($2250-4500), so its not such an unthinkable possibility that some A1 film outs are gonna happen.

Exactly why I brought this up in the first place, for someone to have FOR THE RECORD. Not only that, Marcus has not only updated his website specs for the delivery requirements for the H1/G1/A1, but is making an offer no one here should be able to refuse - a test transferred to film for free, albeit for their uses, still free nonetheless, which is above and beyond the call of duty - still even HE sees the need to come to a conclusion on this, and have a fixed set of recommendations, again not a substitute for conferring with a transfer house, and running your own test based on your project material, but just as a point of reference. That is a service for which many filmmakers have been looking to DVFilm for, clients or otherwise, and I for one want to make it known that it is certainly appreciated by the filmmaking community as a whole.

[Gary McClurg]

I'd say we could set up a poll or contest... maybe more work than I think for someone else :)

I'll have to find the link but there's a trailer callled Man II Man... shot with the A1 and a 35mm adpater... would be nice to have this part of the test to see how much more the image will be soften up using the adapter than not using an adapter..

Also any thing that Stephen Dempsy shoots would be a good example of the film out look... if I lived in Seattle I'd be at his door step begging him to teach me how to shoot... but maybe not I might become live there full time in the Washington Pen... with a room mate named Bubba...

No offense to any Bubba's out there...

Also I'd like to see some green scene and a slo-mo...

[Mathieu Ghekiere]

Originally Posted by Todd Mattson

Exactly why I brought this up in the first place, for someone to have FOR THE RECORD. Not only that, Marcus has not only updated his website specs for the delivery requirements for the H1/G1/A1, but is making an offer no one here should be able to refuse - a test transferred to film for free, albeit for their uses, still free nonetheless, which is above and beyond the call of duty - still even HE sees the need to come to a conclusion on this, and have a fixed set of recommendations, again not a substitute for conferring with a transfer house, and running your own test based on your project material, but just as a point of reference. That is a service for which many filmmakers have been looking to DVFilm for, clients or otherwise, and I for one want to make it known that it is certainly appreciated by the filmmaking community as a whole.

I fully agree, that's why I also posted earlier that I was happy that this thread didn't got closed, because it holds valuable information that people later can look up.