Choppy 24f. How can it be shot to look more fluid?
 

Hi. I'm new to this forum... I just picked up my XH-A1 a couple of weeks ago. I'm continuing this topic from one of Steve Demsey's sample clip posts. One of the members asked Steve how he got his 24f shots to look so fluid. I was curious myself.

While I am a fan of the 24f, I found my shots to be more choppy than it did when I use my GL2. Is there a way in post to help with the choppiness?

Don't know what your viewing it on, but keep in mind the Canon actually only records 24 frames a second to tape, whereas most other camers record 24 frames PLUS repeat fill in frames to get to 29.97.

hi nicholas, yeah that was me.

i found while i was fliming in 24f, the lcd/vf display was far more choppy than the playback. i imported into vegas and it was a bit smoother. playing back from the cam was pretty nice..but not very useful.

others are definitely getting smoother results, so further feedback and info would be appreciated here.

regarding the GL2 (and XL1-S) - that was "frame mode" shot at 30fps but imported as 60i.. so it appears more fluid.

as gary stated, the a1 is laying down only 24fps or 30fps and exporting it in a "progressive" way.

Yeah, it looks choppy in the viewfinder, but it plays back smoothly. I load into FCP with the 1080p24 easy setup, and keep it in a 24p timeline. It looks like the regular 24p that it is, versus the pulldown which to my eye always creates unnatural "judder."

I found that when shooting on Auto that it sends my shutter speed through the roof during bright day shooting thus resulting in an almost gladiator effect when shooting 24p... Try setting it Tv with a shutter speed of 48ish give or take a click up or down depending on conditions...

When shooting at 24fps you need to use the 1/48 shutter speed, unless you're looking for an effect. Video and motion picture cameras are not like still cameras where you can use the shutter to control exposure. Another reason that auto shutter mode shouldn't be used.

Let me get this right. When you change from 60 to 24f in camera, the default shutter speed is 1/24. So It should be changed to 1/48 ? If so, what is the benefit of 1/24 or 1/48. Is everybody filming at 1/48 in the 24f mode? Sorry if the questions sound stupid but I'm a newbie in the 24 fps world.

I don't know why the default goes to 24, but 1/48 is standard for 24fps production and 1/60 is for 30fps. Anything other than that is going to result in some sort of effect, like strobing, blurring, even fan blades spinning backwards if you go fast enough. It's true that some people have shot at 1/24 to get more light, and you can get by with that if there's not much movement in the shot.

Nice to know, Thanks

Great information. THANKS everyone!

It's odd to me -- but it does seem that 1/24 (shutter) is the defalt with the 24f setting.

I wonder why the default isn't 1/48... humm...

Strange how inconsistent some things are at times. 24f mode on mine has a default shutter of 48, like it should.

Bill

mine has 1/24 as default.
1/48 is so much better.

thanks to everyone for their help!

I don't have the A1 but I did use a GL2 for awhile and I shot a short movie all at 1/60 even in dark scenes because I knew I was going to convert it all to 24p and it worked out great.

1/60 - 60i slows down perfect too.

If you shoot at 24p with these new HDV cameras, how does 24p slow down? My guess is, not good, which would mean you are taking away a great feature if you choose to slow down footage.

Or is it always about the shutter speed and not the fps per say?

So 24p can indeed slow down as well if you shoot at 1/48 shutter speed....

Can anyone clarify this?

It worked nicely because 1/60 is the proper shutter speed for shooting 30fps.

Just checked mine and 24f defaults to 1/24 as well

But I went into Magic Bullet and eventually made everything 24p......not 30p.

I edited the video in Vegas before I converted the video to 24p in MB and that helped me get the slow-mo effect I wanted later.

Only after each scene was fully edit, then I converted it to 24p.

None the less, you still shot it in 30 fps. Sure you can edit it to look like 24 fps, but it's not true 24p unless you shoot it in that form. And besides, it's not like the camera only shoots in 24f at 1/48th shutter speed. It's got 30f and 60i as well if you're going for a certain look. It all depends on what you're going for.

I think Bob was talking about his GL2. Magic Bullet does a great job of deinterlacing and converting to 24p, but you still get some of the pulldown look, versus the smoother, steady motion of native 24p shooting. Magic Bullet and Nattress effects seem to do the conversion better than anything else (for the money), in what I've seen.

What you may be seeing is frame judder. This is a byproduct of 24 frames per second which is noticeable particularly during pan shots of exteriors. You see this in not only digital but film during pan shots.
I hate judder. To avoid it, when shooting a project in 24p, shoot your pan shots in 30p.
My experience.

The nature of 24F
 

I wast testing the capabilities of 24f the other day and I found out that even though I was using High shutter speeds (above 1/48) to avoid frame judder I still see some when the person moved, I was filming straight at a person without paning or moving the camera. I noticed this everytime the person made gestures or moved her head. My question is if this is the normal nature of 24f ?
Oh in case you guys need to know I shoot in sd mode 24f, I edited the video in vegas 6 using the 24p sd template for wide screen, reder out to the 24p mpeg setting for dvd architecht so I could watch it in my tv.
Thanks

Has anyone shot 1080 30fps with a high shutter speed to get that action look? It would be real nice to see what the results are for people like me who shoot more action shots in brightly lit conditions. I guess I'll have to invest in some ND filters to knock some light out. Can you fit any filters behind the lens hood? Thanks for your time.

Gorski

To avoid jitter you will probably want a slower shutter speed, not faster... For most things you would probably want a little bit of motion blur... A high shutter speed creates a "stop motion" effect... That is what is partially creating some of the jitter... May try 1/24 1/48 1/60...

Going higher than 48/60 shutter speed will introduce a new type of judder even at 60i.

To get that hardcore action effect (like gladiator) you almost want ultra low frame rates (10 to 15fps) and high shutter speeds... I read somewhere that on gladiator they used a frame rate of like 11 or 12 or something like that... So unless you were going to try too do some slow motion stuff with an action sequence 24p would probably be your best bet...

Alain, a shutter speed higher than 1/48 may cause some strangeness, just as does a speed higher than 1/60 for NTSC interlace video.

I shoot at different shutters speeds including 1/48 and I still notice it. It is not that noticeable like it bothers but is there. It's really hard to explain, I'm new to the 24f world so probably this motion is normal. I thought it would look smooth as a real movie made with a film camera. I just want to know if this is a characteristic of 24f and how smooth the movement or motion should look compared to film ?.
Thanks

thanks, Could you answer my other question about the motion of 24f at 1/48 (normal shutter speed)? How smooth it should look when people move or make gestures when the cam is steady?. Because like I said before I see some type of motion which bothers me a little but probably it is ok with 24fps. I'm used to perceive the motion of hollywood films which in my opinion looks smooth I know they are shot in Film which is very differet from digital, just making a point to explain what I'm seeing in my video . I'm planning to make a movie or a documentary not sure yet and I want to be sure this is how 24f looks or there is something wrong I'm doing.

There is a difference between fps and shutter speed.

You have shutter speed (1/12 sec) and 12 fps. At 1/12 sec shutter you get blur. At 12 fps you get high speed or if you duplicate every frame you get an stutter effect.

I haven't used the 24f with the A1, but I always use it with my HVX 200 and the HV20.
The trick to use a frame rate other than 60i is to keep your moving subject in the same spot on your lcd or viewfinder.
If you concentrate on the background while seeing a movie you'll notice motion blur also.

Any one else could explain how smooth 24f should look ?

Thanks.

Personally i think the descriptions so far explains it best other than actually sampling some of the videos on this forum or elsewhere in 24P/fps. It's hard to explain other than describing the stutter some people notice and others don't really pick up on (some to greater extent than others). Your different shutter speeds will affect the motion blur etc.

For example, if you want good slow motion then 60i at a faster than standard shutter speed (1/120 or maybe 1/250)) would give a more fluid type of motion (almost no motion blur). But if you step up to a shutter speed of 1/500 and fasater then you will still get a clean look but you start to introduce another type of strobe like effect (which may or may not be what you want).

So the bottom line is 24fps/P will have a stutter (noticable to some and not necessarily to others) and shutter speeds can dictate how much blur you will have in the footage etc. Check out several of the different productions other users did on this site and that can help answer your question.

That's exactly what I'm noticing some type of stutter whe people move. Any solution to this? or that's just the way it is?.I'm sorry asking to much about it I just want to know if I make a documentary or a movie people won't complain of this stutter .

It's really how you move the camera that makes the 24f or 24p
"stutter" less obvious.

I have 30 second spot that has both 24f @ 1/48 and 60i @ 1/250
converted to 24p. Email me if you want to see it.

griffithwb msha com

Tell me where to post it or I'll email it.

It looks smooth to me. Just like any 24fps source. Fast horizontal motion will strobe a bit, just like film.

So do you think I'm doing something wrong if I see strobiness or sttuter in steady shots at 24f 1/48 ?