Senn ew100 g2 with a1?
 

I am wondering if anyone has advice based on first hand experience of using the Sennheiser ew100G2 wireless set with the A1.

I have the 100 set and it seems to be pretty straightforward. I did find that I had to set the transmitter mic output down -12 to prevent overloading the mic inputs on the A1. With that it looks like I am good to go running the transmitter output at mic level into the A1 xlr via a Y cable with the channel levels set independently on manual.

I am just checking to see if there are any gotchas I should look out for before using the pair in the field.

I have one, and a freind also has an XH A1 and the same wireless. Both have been working great. It's a good idea to RTFM before heading out with it and get the transmitter and receiver set up right.

I can confirm that it's working, do use the mic input not the line input on the Canon (signal coming from the G2 receiver). The line in is pretty 'cold' on the Canon. Sure you've better sound if you use another mic than the original.

The Sennheiser output is really hot. I knock the gain on the wireless receiver and xmitter down AND use the attenuator setting on the camera with it so the camera volume knob stays at the midpoint.

If your wireless is hot enough that you have to turn your camera input volume knob down past halfway for normal volume levels, it will be distorted, even if it's recorded at the right level. Before anything else, though, make sure the mic isn't peaking on the transmitter.

I like the Senns. There are so many settings on these wireless setups that some people have problems with them, but if you spend enough time with the manuals, you'll figure them out. With a decent mic, they sound pretty good and they have such a huge selection of frequencies that you can always find a clean one.

Line level
 

I'm interested by the comment that the line level on the XHA1 is "cold". I was just about to take mine in to be repaired for this exact reason. Feeding the line inputs with a standard reference from a mixer (0dBu), there isn't enough gain in the camera to get the levels up to -20dBFS (in Europe, for those who don't know, standard lineup is 0dBu=-18dBFS, or -20dB for Japanese cameras which never have a calibration mark at -18!). Consequently, anything shot for professional use on my A1 requires the audio inputs to be set to Mic Level. I wasn't too bothered by this, as I suspected that the Line switch just stuck an attenuator into the circuit anyway, as with PD150s (apparently). But Canon say this isn't the case, so there is an audio advantage to recording a line level input.

I've spoken to Canon Support (UK) about this, but as this is a consumer camcorder (albeit a high end consumer camcorder), the support staff don't really know what they're talking about, eventually pass it on to someone higher, who then eventually emails me a one line answer that completely misses the point of my original question (which boils down to 'Can it be fixed, or are they made this way?').

I'm not trying to be a naysayer here, and I'm sure that others who are having problems with line in are, indeed, having problems.

However, I finally just got around to checking it out on my XH A1. I normally record mic in because I'm usually doing interviews by myself. When there's a soundman on a boom, naturally we use a mixer so he can watch it, and if you're going to use a mixer, might as well use line in.

So I just checked it out and it works fine. I set tone on the Shure FP33 mixer, line out, line in on the camera. I get the tone right up to -20db with no problem. I checked with the mic into the mixer and got a good level there too. The camera's gain has to be cranked up higher than when using mic in, but it's at a very close position to what I use on the DSR500 when recording with the same mixer setup.

The FP33 is an old mixer but around here has sort of been considered a standard of the industry and is what most people are still using. It could be that some other brand mixers don't output as much or something? I zeroed the tone on the mixer as usual and set camera input to -20db, just like I do with any other camera.

So, my experience is that the XH A1 line input is fairly standard. I don't have any other mixers to check it out with.

The line in on the Canon is cold, freezing cold, much colder than anything else. The XH-A1 specs the on line input level is +8dBu. No normal mixer will generate that. Don't know why Canon is missing the boat 'big time' on this one, so you need to use the MIC in channel for line signal... and pad it down with the ATT on active.

Even so for the Sennheiser G2 set with standard lav mic. Seeking a setting with the lowest noise, comparing it with my AKG C 480B ULS / CK63 --> line out on Canon --> HQ Denon amp--> Sony 7506 headphone.

Sennheiser G2 set with Canon XH-A1
transmitter: 0db
reveiver: -18 db
Canon: mic channel in / phantom off/ ATT on
Gain setting in menu (+12db) off
Gain on wheel: 25%

If you think another setting is better (or your ears) please tell.

I don't know what the specs are. The FP33 tone comes in fine with gain turned up about 2/3, which is fine for line in, and is right at what the DSR500 is too with the same mixer. I won't hesitate to shoot line in with our mixer.

Great for you! I consider the FP33 absolute as a 'normal mixer', but saying that, the Canon has very low sensitivity in its line level. A modern mixer like the SD302 -connected to the Canon- needs to pump up to get a good level. Same with Wendt X3. It is like it is, Canon line in is Cold.

When you use your mixer and set your tone to -20, what happens? On the FP33 the tone is what it is--in other words, you set the master to zero, then the recording device, ie., the camera line in, to -20. Then both are calibrated together. My understanding is that you're saying you can't get enough gain out of the camera to make the tone hit -20 on the camera when it's at zero on the mixer? On my XH A1, I don't have a problem with that and it appears to be about the same line level gain as our other cameras.

I think you are calling Andrew here ;>).

But I need to turn full open to enter the -20 zone, with the Canon A1 (I use the -12db setting and make a note with that). As I understand though, with your Sony DSR500 you need to open up also almost full: http://www.sounddevices.com/tech/sony_chart.htm

The output from the Shure mixer is 0 VU = preset at a +4 dBm output level.
BTW: did you check your VU meters on the mixer? You can recalibrate each meter by an internal trim potentiometer. Why don't you check it with the oscillator tone from the Canon in return?

Neither camera opens up almost full. Both the Canon and Sony go about 2/3 open with line in to record the standard tone. That hasn't changed a bit since we've had the mixer and the DSR500. You mentioned -12...tone is recorded at -20 in the digital world, zero for the analog mixer. You zero the mixer's VU meter with the tone, which is always the same output.

Bill, do you have your audio ALC set for auto or manual? In manual I have found that my A1 requires an abnormally hot line-in level. In auto, it adds a fair bit of makeup gain. I can get my SD302 to generate a significantly strong signal but it's hotter than any pro audio gear that I've used.
-Dan

Audio is always on manual unless I'm just using a camera mounted mic for shooting traffice noise, etc.

Again, good to hear that you -Bill- have no problems with normal 'line in' level on the XH-A1. (You did calibrate your mixer didn't you?)
To stay on subject: I presume you use the Canon line in -direct connected- with the Sennheiser G2 set also? What are your numbers?

I've only used line in with the Sennheiser MKH60. I normally use the wireless when I'm by myself and no mixer, but the mic used isn't relevant as long as there's an XLR out to go into the mixer. The mixer's master control is set so tone is at zero, the camera's gain so tone reads -20. Depending on the mic and position, the soundman then may crank the mixer up or down as needed; you don't touch the camera gain after the camera and mixer are calibrated together, which is what the tone's for.

So I don't see the problem people are having, although I'm sure it's there for some, otherwise there wouldn't be complaints. When I get the tone to -20, there's still plenty of room on the camera's gain. As I said before it's around 2/3 open, very close to the line in gain used in the DSR500. I don't have it here to check exactly where it is, it could between 2/3 and 3/4, but there's still plenty of room, and it doesn't introduce any noise that I can hear in the headphones.

It shouldn't make any difference which mixer is used, since 0dBu is 0dBu and +4 is +4 regardless. I have been told by Canon that the camera CAN meet AES/EBU specifications, so mine must be faulty.

To clarify, Bill, if I feed the camera with 0dBu, inputs at line level, gain to manual, then with the pots turned right the way up I get about -24dBFS: no good (though it might be *just* about OK in the States - isn't your lineup +4dBu=-20dBFS?). I could of course increase the output of my mixer, but that would be really inconvenient as I record sound on a whole variety of cameras, all of which are perfectly happy with the standard 0dBu input.

If yours is working OK, then that's more evidence that mine requires a trip to the menders. Will take it in to Canon HQ next week and see what they say...

I would say there may be a problem with yours. My tone comes out of the mixer at zero on the mixer's master control, which is where it's supposed to be. My line in gain on the camera is beyond half way, at about 2/3 to get me a -20db, as it should be. No need to crank the mixer at all. If you have your camera pots cranked all the way open and are getting only a -24db, then I'd say that's a problem. Have you double checked the mixer with another camera or something to make sure it's outputting as it should?

Yep - my professional work is as a sound recordist, so I use the mixer all the time for tv and features. Never had any problem with any other video camera or audio recorder, from dodgy prosumer to shiny high end, so I'm 99% sure that it's the camera that's the issue.

I'd decided to take it in for repair anyway, but Raymond's post caught my attention - I suddenly wondered whether it was another 'feature' of the camera, like the wobbly mic! Meanwhile, I've been getting adequate audio using mic level, but it would be nice to do it the 'right' way, especially since that would mirror my working practices elsewhere.

Will report back when I get chance to pay Canon a visit...

SD302 / Senn G2...
 

I'm yet another user of both the Senn G2 set-up and the SD302. The audio has been a pain, but I now have a workable solution... Here's a thread over on dv.com that concerns the SD302 with the A1.
Using the G2 wireless, where possible I like to put it through the SD302 as it gives me more control over level, and allows me to run things hotter as the 302's limiters can catch the transients..
At a shoot last week, running non-wireless, I ended up trimming down the 302's outputs by 12dB, and running those into the A1's inputs set at Mic + Att at about 50% ch gain with tone from the 302 registering at -20dB. this set-up worked well with voice peaks at around -10dB, so I guess I could have upped the levels a tad more from the 302...
There's no way to get the Line out from the 302 registering corectly on the A1's meters (-20dB) even with the gain fully up. The Canon's specs seem to bear this out too..
Rgds, Ross.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

That's interesting. As I've said earlier in the thread, I use the Shure FP33 and have no problem with line in gain getting to -20 and still have plenty of gain in the camera left to play with. I wonder if different mixers output tone that's been zeroed at a different level...or if there is a difference between individual Canon cameras.

I shoot all my corporate stuff with a DSR500, and its line in from the same mixer pretty much matches the Canon.

To pick up where I left off, I did take my camera in to Canon HQ (UK), where it stayed for a couple of weeks, and the definitive verdict?

My XHA1 is in good order - they're built this way! Personally, I find this quite a shocking result. If Sony and Panasonic can make cameras with proper line level audio inputs (and have done for decades), what's ailing Canon? My limited experience of working with other people's XL1's was that the sound side of things was badly worked out, but, come on, it's not that complicated is it? (Is it?!)

So, there you go: if you're looking to achieve broadcast levels and put proper line up tone on the front of your rushes using an XHA1 when feeding it from a professional mixer (SQN, Sound Devices etc, if not the Shure), stick to mic level input. Or whack the camera's gain up full, and hope the editor (or assistant editor) is sloppy enough not to notice. Seriously, a few deciBels might not seem like a big deal, but 0dBu=-18/-20dBFS is such a set-in-stone standard, that delivering anything else would raise real questions about professionalism. But OK, Ok, fair enough, Canon never claimed this was anything other than a consumer camcorder - why should it be 'broadcast quality'...? Disappointing though.

Bill, regarding the FP33, do you have the mixer's master gain at unity (i.e. zero), when you line up? I think the tone can be adjusted on your mixer up to +15dBu, in which case (for example) you are calibrating the mixer/camera pair at +15dBu=-20dBu - which is unusual, but may be a perfectly satisfactory way of circumventing the problem. This isn't possible on a Sound Devices mixer, on which the output is standard analogue line level (0dBu), unless attenuated.

The tone's always set at zero, and the XH A1 comes in about the same as the DSR500--about 2/3 of the way open for a -20, line in.

I use XH-A1 with SD302. When I first tested them together I used both -20dB and full scale tones and noticed that using line level inputs I have to turn the pots all the way to full level. Or actually just a feather away from the full position to make the last segment to light with full scale tone, so little that I do not bother and just twist them to full (SD302 limiters take care ot thet extra 1 or 2 dB).

Audio has been fine with these settings.