At wits end
 

Recently, I had problems with my XL2, when connecting it from the 1394 port to the computer, it had a tendency to fry the camera...see this thread...
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=38679

Canon eventually replaced the Camera recently with a new one, I shot video with it and went to transfer it to the computer...It was capturing video just fine for a while, then the computer started to refuse to recognize the camera. Worse yet, it seems like the camera has caught a virus, where no computer will recognize it. I have tried every basic thing I know of...new cables, different computers, reconfiguring software, everything. I have scanned the internet, and found one cihilling (for me) post from someone else who seems to have had the same problem.

http://www.dvboard.com/index.php?act...135&#entry2665

I have been trying to find a cheap firewire device to plug into my system or the others that have been tested, to see if it is truly destroying things, but unfortunately it seems that everything is USB, and only some external HD's, DV gear, and some specialty (read: expensive) items are firewire.

So, here I am as frustrated as I've ever been asking for help. Obviously the computer goes to a repair facility where it either gets fixed, or is banished from ever seeing a dv device again, and I fork over the bucks for a new system. I don't really need to spend the bucks on a new system now...I need to get a lighting package, software, etc, and this is not what I had in mind.

The camera, if she's truly out of it needs to go back a third time, and Canon is getting tired of hearing from me. Fortunately, this time I haven't fried anything, it's just a firewire problem. (I still get output from S-video, and can work from there.)

Has anyone ever heard of this, and does anyone else have any ideas? I have never had problems like this that I could not solve, so, please, please, please, give me your ideas...Anything.

Again, I have done the basics, Cables, virus scans, hardware and software setup (thru windows Device Manager).

Thanks

Bill, I've looked through your post a couple times.

Have you tried connecting your camera to someone else's system? That is a variable that I would go through when testing this firewire issue.

I really don't think your camera can catch a virus. I could be wrong but it seems unlikely.

Second that
 

I haven't had this problem (I dump to a FireStore, which always connects well to my Mac). But Keith's right: your computer's a major variable in your chain you need to eliminate.

sad story
 

Hi there

Sory to hear about yoour problems. Unfortunatly you are not alone, in having problems with a PC frying the firewire connection inside a camera. Working over hear in education I have heard of several stories of this type. It appears the common factor was dubious quality firewire boards inside the computers being used for capture. This is an area where Mac users can be more confident about not having these kind of problem. I, like many other Mac users tend to experience fewer ( but by no means no) problems with camera computer interface and capture.

Check the earth-connection for your computer. If you use only a 2 pin powercable then you could have a low current on your pc cabinet and frame. Try to touch the cabinet. If you feel a buzz, then this is your problem.

Always use a 3-pin powerplug insertet in a proper wall outlet with earthe connection.

I've just tried the camera on a brand new Dell...this time the 4 pin to 4 pin, (small on both ends) connection. Still no recogintion of the camera.

Camera's 1394 capabilirties appear to be gone, and without a doubt, this is caused by the computer. Therefore, computer's gonna be gone too.

Sigh.


I didn't need this.

ERIC: Is that right? I just did a search on this very forum about "Mac Firewire port problem" and found at least one person reporting an issue with their Mac and a GL2. And another one with their XL1. There were a bunch of other threads too about firewire recognition possible issues concerning Macs.

Anyway, as I recall Dylan Couper in this board had a firewire port problem with one of his XL1's and the PC he had then. Dylan?

FireWire
 

I'm sure we all know this, but I'll just say for refresh sake. It is very important that when you hook up your Firwire to the XL2 that the camera is off. Then once it is plugged into both the computer port and Camera port. Turn the XL2 on. If you fail to do this, you run the " risk " of having problems like the above mentioned.

Darrin, I think you're making this up, what's your reference? When connecting audio and video connections, the manual clearly states turn everything off when connecting cables, but for Firewire its just the opposite. Firewire, like USB is made to recognize while live; Firewire devices don't have to load when the OS boots.

Page 101 of the user manual (second bullet):
If the computer freezes while you have the camcorder, disconnect and reconnect the DV cable. If the problem persists, disconnect the interface cable, turn off the camcorder and computer, turn camcorder and computer back on and reconnect them.

That's pretty clear to me that all Firewire connections are made while the computer and the camcorder are ON.

Being very paranoid from the first (fried) connection, I have only been making my connections with the camera off. Period.

Camera offl. Attach cable. Turn camera on. Computer says .....

Nothing...

Page 101 of the user manual does reference this as a hot connection, I haven't done that in the mortal fear of cooking something else. Anyone else want to try and let me know...

Personally, the best thing you could do is buy a cheap mini DV camera, $250, leave it connected to your computer at all times, and use that as your capture deck. I have a DVX100A and have been using another mini DV camera for capture, which I have hooked up to a 4pin to 4pin fire wire port (just to be safe). The computer blowing fire wire ports on the camera is not just a PC thing, I have heard many, if not more Mac complaints of the computer frying the camera, so there isn't a whole lot you can do. Just make sure that A. you have a good fire wire card, and B. you don't hook your XL2 up to it. The fire wire on these cameras really should only be used when going direct to disk, or when connecting to a laptop to monitor using a program like DV rack. I know that the camera can be used as a capture deck, but it just wears out the camera in the long run.

It certainly doesn't hurt to have the camera powered off when connecting the FireWire cable. But, that said, Firewire was engineered to be hot-swappable. The Firewire contact pins actually have (ever-so-slightly) differing lengths to ensure that the "powered" pin makes contact at the right time, and not too soon, when plugging the cable in.

So, in the FireWire spec, there's absolutely no reason to power down devices when connecting or disconnecting them. Hot-swappability was one of FireWire's guiding motivations.

In the real world, though, a bad chipset or a bad FireWire cable could cause trouble. I would think it would be rare for a problem to occur by plugging in a "live" FireWire device, but since there's no harm in waiting for a device to be plugged in before powering it up, it's reasonable for people to feel more comfortable doing that. (And hey, nobody needs my permission. :-) But people should also know that FireWire was designed to allow "live" devices to be connected. (Just think of all those iPods being synched day in and day out.)

- Scott

Courage
 

Dear Bill,

I'm sorry that you're having such problems. You may want to look at getting the Sony GVD-1000. http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/cont...=242757&is=REG.

This way you will save your XL2 transport mechanism and any other hardships. The cheap video camera with firewire out is also another way to go, as someone else suggested.

Good luck and hang in there.

Bill: it is pretty well known that it is WISE to attach or de-tach a camera
when it is OFF. Wether or not this should matter or not is of little relevance
now is it.

No-one said you should power down your computer (however, that would
be the safest way to connect or disconnect).

It sounds like your firewire port on the XL2 (or some logic behind it) is busted,
you will have to send your camera to Canon again.

It could very well be that your computer is the problem (too much power on
the firewire lines or some grounding problem as described earlier).

Rob, I've got to take exception to this 'wive's tale' that "it is WISE to attach or de-tach a camera when it is OFF".

It is wise to know your equipment and not assume that Firewire behaves like other video or audio connections. You really shouldn't perpetuate the myth that you should turn the camera off to attach the IEEE1394 cable, it just isn't true and because you're a Wrangler here, someone might believe your misconception that that would be the "safest way to connect or disconnect".

Rob, what we should all strive to convey are the facts concerning the capabilities of the equipment we use. Firewire was specifically engineered to permit live connection. In fact some devices will not connect if the device isn't powered up when connected.

I'm with you on powering down to attach A/V connection, as stated in the user manual. But the manual also indicates Firewire doesn't require this and 'tribal lore' isn't a good enough reason to tell people it is.

Rob, this was not directed at you personally, so many (possibly including you) think this is a flame. Its not, I apologize if you think so, but I just want facts to trump assumptions.

Me ( Sorry Rob)
 

Hey everyone, just to clear Rob from the blame. It was I who said the comment about connecting while off. You can believe what you want. I have been a computer tech for about 10 years. Of that time I've experienced problems similar to the problems encountered with the firewire connection stated above. Fire wire is designed to work the way you have stated "in theory". I totally agree. However if things aren't properly grounded ( sometimes even if they are) you can run the risk of distributing a static charge to a device or a firewire port. Is it rare.. absolutely, but it does happen. If the device is off during connection it reduces this risk of affecting that device. It's just my 2 cents worth. Sorry if I offended anyone. Cheers

I would agree with Darrin. While it SHOULD be safe to do hot plugging/unplugging with firewire, there is still some risk that can be avoided totally just by switching off the devices. The connectors are well designed but not foolproof, and it is possible to short power or signal pins to the metal shell of the mating connector if you are not careful.

Richard

So, now I know...
 

I've been on a trip the last couple days and have had some time to think about this.
First off, in the "Eeek.." posting mentioned earlier, I mentioned that Canon tech service mentioned a "bent pin" in my camera's 1394 port. I used this as my assumption that the camera was the problem, which is why I went merrily along and plugged it into a computer that was probably to blame. "Damn..." I think, if they had just pointed me to the possibility of the computer being at blame, a lot of problems could have been avoided.
The 1394 port it was connected to was Mother Board based, not an extra card, and the MOBO is a fairly new, quality board. (Gigabyte )
Thanks for many of your replys, and I'll answer some of them here.
As noted earlier, the act of hot plugging and switching the camera is moot...I never attempted plugging the camera in "hot", instead, it was always in the off position when plugging the 1394 into it.

The computer is grounded, with a three wire (positive, neutral, ground) connection, and that was not a problem...Also, it was surge protected as well.

What I've learned from the posts I've gotten here, and others that I've read elsewhere, is that 1394 seems to be a fragile monster, and it can get really ticked off and eat your equipment, without warning, if it wants to. (i.e. It's cheap!)

So, that said, does anyone have any ideas on how to test a 1394 to see if it's bad, or about to be bad?

(more)

Ever try installing/replacing with a new firewire card? So far it seems the only common failure point is the port itself as everything else has been swapped on some level.

New playback gear
 

Continued...

This next part could almost be a new thread...I really believe the best way out of this mess is to buy equipment that would act as the playback medium for the tapes. This way, if I fry that, it won't be as expensive.
That said, if I got an inexpensive digital camera, would it properly reflect the images in the camera. That is, would it properly send 24P, 16X9, 30P, etc., and would the quality be the same.

(I know that digital is all 1's and 0's, and while all 1's and 0's are created equally, some 1's and 0's are more equal than others!!! Whew!!! That was Orwellian!)

Kidding aside, I have heard that there are quality issues and other issues with using other/cheaper or older digital cameras or playback devices with the XL2 DV tape. Any thoughts?

Patrick...Yeah, I got a new 1394 card, tried it and nothing...Also, tried a 1394 on another computer. Nothing


Bill

I thought I should chime in regarding the frying of Firewire ports on cameras by computers. Two years ago we had the firewire port on both of our DV cameras go bad in the same week, and we're all but convinced that they were fried by one of our Mirrored Drive Door Powermacs. We had the motherboard checked by Apple and they found nothing wrong with it, but if I remember correctly they replaced it anyhow. We haven't had any problems since, but that Powermac has since been retired as an office computer, and doesn't get any cameras connected to it. So I would definitely say it's possible, it happens, and it's an expensive and rare issue.

Patrick: I have to respectfully disagree with you.

Let me try to explain to you what I think:

1. why would/does anyone care what the standard says? A lot of things are being said that turn out to be not true in the real world. It is fine that the standard supports connecting devices that are powered on, but that is no garantuee both the cable and connector are 100% to spec (some manufacturing can result in slight changes from 100% spec!)

2. what problem is it to turn of the camera if this can possibly save it from harm? I've yet to hear of a camera that does not work if it is connected powered down and then turned on

3. so in this light I (and a lot of others) find it okay to use the word "wise". Whether or not you want to call it a "wive's tale".

And yes, I am using my "power" as a wrangler to tell everyone to turn there
camera off before connecting and disconnecting it. I don't want more people
to blow their ports! We have had TONS (at least 25, but probably more) users
here who've had busted firewire ports. Whether or not the "standard allows"
for this to happen or not is of no real concern to me (or the people with
blown ports), now is it?

It's not like this problem is just happening now. It has been going on for a
long time. We are just instructing people to be safe, no harm in that.

Okay, with that I would like to end this discussion on what to do or not to
do. Both points of view have been clearly explained and everybody can read
them and form their own opinion on the matter.

I'm going to "excersize" my role as wrangler to get us back on track after
this if needed. Thanks in advance for contuining with the original topic of
the thread!

My XL2 has done a two scary things. 4 horizontal bars across the screen, a sudden loss of all vital signs. But in the end it was all solved by removing the battery and taking out the small internal battery, forcing the camera into a hard reboot. You will lose all stored settings in doing this but it is better than the alternative. Try this with yours and see if your computer will recognize it then. I agree that the camera should be off when connecting and disconnectng any I/O cables or especally power cables.

Matthew Cockrell

Matthew Cockrell

Good tip Matthew, always good to try and reset everything back to basics!

Hmmm. Will do. It's worth a try.

Frying Firewire?
 

Hi.
I work in a camera shop here in the Uk and recently had a customer bring in a camcorder that he swore had 100v 'live' on the chassis. So we sent it to out repairers. I soon got a phone call form the engineer about it. It seems that because the power cable for the transformer is not earthed (it’s just a two-pin connection) you get a 'floating voltage' through the unit that might show up on a meter. He also told me they regularly have blown firewire sockets on camcorders because of this. He said that one way round this camera-to-computer hot swapping is to use the camera on battery power. I know this is not always practical, and as I am not electrically minded I might have got the techno-speak wrong but I always transfer my footage using battery as I normally shoot very small lengths each time. Hope this might help a little.
Regards, Oliver.