XL H1 Conversion From HD to SD
 

I'm thinking of purchasing a XL H1, and it's going to be perhaps months or even years before editing and producing videos from the tape I shoot in HD. I would still like use the footage to produce short videos, so in real simple language, what is needed in the way of hardware to convert the HD footage to SD on MiniDV tapes. I currently use an XL-1 for nature documentation, but I see the hand writing on the wall, and since I will basically be starting over, I feel the sooner I make the move, the more ahead I'll be a few years down stream when HD really kicks in. I currently work with a Windows base system and use a Panasonic AG-DV1000 deck for downloading. Thank in advance.

Hello :-)

Yeah, I'm probably buying one soon and I am interested in the answer to your question if someone can chime in.

Also, are we limited to downloading HDV to our NLE via the XL H1 or can I use my DSR-11 so as not to ware out the H1 heads??

Thanks!

Nothing.

All you need is the camera itself. Both Sony & Canon HDV cameras will downconvert your HD tape to SD computer files in realtime on the fly. If you want to copy your HD minidv tapes over to SD minidv tapes to create shows in SD today, simply plug your new HDV camera into your old XL1 or DVX100 and copy the tapes right over the firewire camera-to-camera. The JVC HDV camera can't do that unfortunately.

So be safe in knowing that you can go out and shoot all you want as much as you want, and rack up your HD footage on those inexpensve MiniDV cassette tapes so when you're ready to make an HD product, like a DVD in HD, in the future, you can. In the mean time, you can do SD with those same tapes today.

- ShannonRawls.com

Hello,

But can the Sony DSR-11 (or any of the other VTRs) play the MiniDV tapes that contain HDV information so that you don't have to beat up your H1 heads??

Thanks!

Nope.

There will be new decks coming out for the newest versions of HDV.

- ShannonRawls.com

That's what I thought, it would have been some kind of cool voodoo if it could have...

Too bad, I just bought the DSR-11, I'll have to get more DVCAM work to make it pay off :-(

Thanks Buddy!

Anthony: DSR11's a good little deck with the advantage of being able to use the large tapes. Shoot HDV and down convert your footage from the camera to 3 hour DVCAM tapes on the 11.

True, you'll be doubling the mileage on your camera, but it would be better than searching and digitizing with the camera, both for the camera itself and for your HDV tapes. You would have a timecode reference so you could always go back and conform your show in HDV later... Steve Rosen

Good Point!

I thought I read about some HDV decks going for around $1900.00 (which isn't that much more than the DSR-11) it would be nice when I can justify the expense.

How is the H1 for SD, I mean I may be using it in SD mode until delivery issues are resolved rather than down-converting.

How does the SD footage look (4:3 and 16:9) from this camera?

Thanks!!

I think JVC had a low-cost deck, the CU1 or something like that, that may have been in that price bracket. The current decks are not: the Sony is $4000, and the JVC BR50 is $3400. And neither will work with the XLH1's 24F or 30F modes. I think we're all most interested in seeing how the HDV deck situation shakes out. But if you were planning on getting a deck for use with an XLH1, just be aware that none of the current offerings offers compatibility with all the modes the Canon produces.

Hey Barry,

Thanks for the heads-up.

Do you think the H1 is a good investment if you were just to use it as an SD platform, or would you go for a camera with larger CCDs?

Thanks!

Depends on your intended usage. For SD-only acquisition, there are probably better ways that $9,000 could be spent. The XL-H1 is intended as a high-def studio-integrated camera, and that's where it will find its best bang-for-the-buck. The special features it has, that you're paying extra for, are best used in an integrated high-def environment. As a standard-def camera, you'd be paying for a lot that you wouldn't be using. An XL2 will probably deliver an equally sharp standard-def image for less than half the cost, and will likely have better sensitivity and dynamic range too. Obviously such things can't be known for sure without a side-by-side.

But, if your intention is to use it as a standard-def integrated studio camera, using SDI and tc in/out and genlock, obviously the XLH1 would still retain significant advantages over the XL2. But $9,000? That's at least 1/2" territory, if not 2/3". If you're aiming for the best standard-def picture, something like the 70U from JVC would offer 1/2" chips and D-9 4:2:2 recording (practically Digital Betacam caliber recording) for a package price about the same as the XLH1.

I'm not saying an XLH1 wouldn't make a fine standard-def picture. What I am saying is, use it for what it is, and for what it's designed for. Play to its strengths, and it is unparalleled. If you use it for something other than what it's designed for, don't be surprised if other less expensive products could actually do a better job.

Barry,

I think the real value here is the open architecture. I will use it to shoot a dv50 studio job in mid January. Later in the month we're looking at a dv100 job. same camera, different deck. I like the idea of having one camera that allows me to shoot almost limitless formats. I'm very eager to get to the testing I'll be doing prior to the shoot. And more eager to get into Fire for finish and see what we really have.

Vince

Understood. The Canon does break new ground, and it has certain features that absolutely distinguish it from its competition.

But for multiformat -- does the XLH1 really give you anything that you just can't get in the other cameras? Using your example: if you want to shoot DV50 one day and DV100 the next, consider that the HVX does that built-in and doesn't require deck rentals (as long as what you're shooting fits on the cards of course).

The HD-SDI is a nice feature, but it's not night-and-day different from analog component, as regards these 1/3" HD cameras. HD-SDI could be, if it were dual-link 4:4:4 at 12-bit, but it isn't; it's 8-bit 4:2:2. Read Nick & Shannon's report, they couldn't tell much of a difference at all between the component output and the HD-SDI. So you could get basically-comparable format-agnosticity with any of the HD cameras being offered; a JVC HD100 or Sony Z1 or Panasonic HVX will all offer uncompressed analog component that could be captured on a DV50 or DV100 or HDCAM deck.

Yes, HD-SDI will be a little cleaner. But is it enough to make it the deciding factor in a purchase decision? That's an individual choice, obviously. I'm not downplaying the coolness of having HD-SDI, I'm just pointing out that for many, it isn't such a difference that it should be the sole overriding factor in considering which platform to go with. And the question I was responding to was as pertaining to the XLH1's pre-eminence as an SD camera. And for strictly SD, I figure you can probably get better imaging for less by going with a strictly SD product.

This may help as well: http://www.canopus.com/canopus/techn...iveringhdv.php

- ShannonRawls.com

Thanks for the link Shannon!

I am currently shooting 2 documentaries, one 58 minutes, the other 28 minutes. They are both SD projects - since tv land generally isn't up to speed on Hd documentaries yet (with the possible exception of wildlife).

I decided to buy the H1, shoot HDV 1080i and down convert to SD 16x9 for post. Why? Because documentaries (or any long film) take a while to shoot and edit, as much as 2+ years in my case. I figure if a film has potential for an afterlife in DVD I should try to anticipate what will be wanted 2 to 4 years from now. I can always go back and re-edit in HDV now because I have the backup...

Of course, with technology racing as it is, HDV will probably be obsolete and a new higher resolution format that records on Post-its will probably foil my plan.. but, hey, I'm trying...

FYI: The down-conversion looks superb, possibly a little better than my XL2, but I haven't done a side-by-side comparison yet. Oh, and the manual lens looks pretty good on the H1 too, but the 20X is better, especially wide.

Question: Anyone using the Sony deck with the H1 footage? I'm having to digitize with the camera and I really hate that. I will get a Sony as soon as I'm sure it'll work (in 1080i, I know the 24F problem)... By the way, the JVC will play 1080i but will apparently only record 720p... Steve Rosen

Steve!

Smart Thinking. Rarely do you find people who think like you.....AHEAD!

Yes, I am confident that the Sony HDV deck will playback your HDV 1080i60 footage shot with your XL-H1. It will NOT however playback your 24p or 30p footage.

Do you like the downconversion? I beleive when you do a side-by-side comparison of your XL2 SD footage and your XL-H1 downconverted-SD footage you will concur that the XL-H1 footage is nicer, brighter & more vivid in colors. I don't think I will ever downconvert footage in-camera. but I am going to follow Douglas Spotted Eagles advice and allow my computer to do all downconverting. Also, by doing it that way, I'll never need to go back to tape for the ONLINE because I will already have my HD footage captured. The manual lens looks cool? You say the 20x is better in wide....how so? Is it wider? sharper? what's up?

And what city are you in? your profile doesn't say.

insider tip: since you don't need it right away.....don't buy the sony deck just yet. something *awesome* is about to be announced.

- ShannonRawls.com

Hello Again !

How do you allow the computer to handle the downconverting, especially if you are not using Canopus products??

Thanks !!

Easy... Sony Vegas will downconvert HDV no problem. I capture the full .m2t and place them in Vegas. Vegas then renders me out a DV Proxy file using the famous GEARSHIFT program from VASST.COM.

Now I am starting to take a liking to CINEFORM PROSPECT HD 2.1 as well. it will take your .m2t files and make them a HD proxy that you can use to edit and finish with. Their tests claim that if you convert to cinform .avi type file then you can cut it and finish it and apply all your effects, transitions and color corrections to it and it will look better then native HDV .2t would have in the end.

- ShannonRawls.com

Hi, I assume that I can do it in PremierePro 1.5??

Shannon: I am in Monterey CA, not too far away. I graduated from the UCLA film Dept. many years ago, worked in the "industry" for a while, then hid out up here...

The 16X lens looks pretty good. At full wide angle both lenses suffer a little in SD. In HDV the 20X has the definite edge, but the rest of the zoom range is pretty close. This isn't chart testing, I only do that for back focus checks. My opinions are based on real world, mostly hand-held, shooting... (and I'm sorry, but I'm way too busy to post clips but I appreciate those who do).

You are right that the color seems richer from the HDV down-conversion. I still don't have my menu settings exactly where I want them, but I do like the two Cine Gamma choices in the new camera.. #2 is similar to the Panasonic DVX 100A that everyone likes so much...

I edit on FCP, so I am down-converting from the camera for now... I actually ordered the Sony deck today - I had originally intended to wait until something came out that would play 24F, but that may never happen. I considered Firestore (not yet available for Canon HDV either) as well, but it seems needlessly complicated for fast shooting...

All in all, I am very impressed with this camera. I'm not usually swayed by the physical appearance of tools, but this thing is flat out elegant looking. Fitted with mini-rods, a Chrosziel matte box, Anton Bauer battery and custom grips, it looks like a film camera.. similar to my super16 Aaton... Steve Rosen

Cool Steve.

And by the way, the Firestore FS4-Pro does support Canon HDV in all modes. Always have.

- ShannonRawls.com

Really, I was told by ZGC that it isn't available yet. Have you used it? I've been told that it's a major pain in the ass if you're moving quickly.. set-up etc.. I'd appreciate your oppinion..

By the way, check out

pbs.org/accidentalhero

for info on a film I made in mini DV 5-6 years ago (with my DSR-300). It's the project that won me over to shooting tape... Steve Rosen

I'm using the FS-4 Pro in DV mode (can't comment on HDV - I don't have that option added nor do I have a cam to feed it). While the usability of the FS-4 is questionable (at least if one is a Mac user ;), it works just fine once you've wrapped your head around it. Loud fan - yes; no physical lock-function for the controls - yes. But it doesn't loose it settings when powering off, so once you've set it up and it runs, it works well and quickly enough for me. If you power it off between takes, it takes a while to start up again. But if you have several batteries around (or feed it externally), you shouldn't have a need to do this...

HTH,

Ron

Ron, do you loose settings when you change batteries? How loud is the fan? I understand from the site (where these issues are probably more appropriatly discussed) that they are working on a quieter fan...

No, I doesn't lose settings when changing the battery. I'm just checking what happens if the battery is out for an extended period of time, but I don't think the settings are lost that way, either. Update: Even after about 5 minutes w/o any power, the unit doesn't loose its settings.

The fan can be quite loud and has an unpleasant pitch at high rpm (at least my unit does) - depends on ambient temp and how long/hard the unit has to work. Using the Retro Cache feature, e.g. results in higher fan rpm in my experience.

A quieter fan would definitely be a bonus. I think they should design a metal enclosure and do away with the fan altogehter. Using the unit with the optionally available hot-shoe adapter right next to the XL-cam's micro is definitely a rediculous marketing gag. No way you can get away with that! - unless you favor a jet engine-like sound as the background of your recording ;)

But if you're shooting in an environment with a 'healthy' background noise level and you have the FS-4 clipped to your belt on your side or behind your back, there's no problem...

I agree, though, that this is probably best discussed elsewhere (DTE/DTD forum)..