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-   -   XL1s In Use in the War on Terrorism (https://www.dvinfo.net/forum/canon-xl1s-xl1-watchdog/10816-xl1s-use-war-terrorism.html)

Justin Wheeler June 13th, 2003 12:47 PM

XL1s In Use in the War on Terrorism
 
I recently loaned my XL1s to a good friend who works for one of our more "secret" Federal law enforcement agencies. He needed a video camera for surveillance, and the one they have is a little palmcorder that has a street price of under $500. Given his need, I really didn't feel like I could refuse the request, even though he couldn't offer me any 'official' assurance that it would come back in one piece.

He's had it two days and reports excellent results so far, and his boss really likes the resulting footage. He said he'd consider buying one for the LA office if the next few days go well for the unit.

I'll let everybody know how the story comes out. So far, so good.

Keith Loh June 13th, 2003 01:01 PM

Your more trustworthy than I am. Lending a camera out to a spook? Who knows what dodgy ops it might be risked in.

Chris Hurd June 13th, 2003 01:25 PM

Be sure to let him know that if he really wants to get spooky with an XL1, just add an EF adapter and any 35mm EOS telephoto lens... then it's a video telescope, the ultimate surveillance tool.

Robert Poulton June 13th, 2003 02:21 PM

Well I find it hard to believe that the "'Secret' Federal Law Enforcement Agency" cannot afford a camera of their own. Why go and borrow one from a friend when I'm sure the company would give them a camera. Justin have you looked out your window? Maybe your friend is checking up on you...hehe. Well as long as he is having fun with it.

Rob:D

Nathan Gifford June 13th, 2003 02:30 PM

Me too, I'm kind of surprised. Besides a XL-1 is hardly concealable.

Keith Loh June 13th, 2003 03:23 PM

Maybe it's a 'behind the mirror' dealie. Or just to record them extracting a confession.

Frank Granovski June 13th, 2003 03:44 PM

XL1s In Use in the War on Terrorism? or on a common drug bust. Law enforcement here have all sorts of tiny, James Bond-like cams. LA doesn't? Come on.

Brad Doan June 13th, 2003 03:44 PM

You would be surprised how limited law enforcement budgets are. Add to that the amount of red-tape and justification required to get a new piece of equipment and it really shouldn't surprise anyone that this guy would want to borrow his buddy's XL-1. If you think low-budget filmmaking is a guerrilla undertaking, you should do a ride-along or two with your local law enforcement agencies. Ask those guys about how much support they get from their departments. If you want a real eye-opener, ride with a sheriff's dept. Those guys are all broke.

~Brad

Chris Hurd June 13th, 2003 04:14 PM

Brad is absolutely right, what's funny about most Sheriff's Offices is that they have the ultimate authority in law enforcement but usually the least amounts for budget. Getting a camcorder like the XL1S for short-term use can be like pulling teeth; for temporary use, it's easier for an agency to borrow one from a friend, as above.

Justin Wheeler June 13th, 2003 04:30 PM

I'll be able to share a few more details about this specific operation (how the camera is being used and what it's being used for) once it's over, probably on Monday.

From what I've seen of their operation, they are massively underfunded. In Hollywood movies, they have neato spy gadgets and cameras and heat-shielding body suits...in the real world, many agencies require officers to pay for their own weapons and ammunition, kevlar vests, flashlights, handcuffs, boots/shoes, etc. This is true at the both the state and Federal levels of law enforcement.

LAPD is one example, locally for me. Officers have to pay for flashlights, training ammunition, shoes, cuffs, and backup weapons, as well as any larger caliber handguns they want to carry aside from what they are issued. I was flabergasted to find this out, but it's the truth. If you asked an officer if they could get their hands on an XL1s for a stakeout or surveillance (assuming they knew what one was), they'd just laugh.

Call your congressman if you want, but the truth is less sexy than fiction in this case.

Keith Loh June 13th, 2003 05:16 PM

even the CIA
 
Even those department that supposedly are on the forefront of the 'war on terrorism' do not have the most up to date technology or practices.

Read this BBC article about the CIA and how backwards they are:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/2965620.stm

Don Palomaki June 14th, 2003 04:28 AM

There is a real issue here. We probably do not want a govt. with enough of the latest toys to watch everyone, even if we could afford it. The ptemptation for for abuse would be great, especially if ther was no need to prioritize among cases to work. Idle hands are the devil's playground as they say.

Also, they people in government, including decision makers, are just as astute as the people we work with every day at the office, the check-out counter, etc.

And now you know a good bit of the story why government works so well.

Keith Loh June 14th, 2003 10:08 AM

It is true you have to watch where you throw technology these days. A while back my company had an interesting contact from the Middle East who wanted to license our live web streaming product to monitor an airport. This was just on the eve of the war! Of course we carefully had to determine for just what purpose this was being requested without offending the contact. As it turned out, it was entirely legitimate. But we had to make sure.

Edwin Quan June 14th, 2003 04:16 PM

funny you guys bring these experiences up! just 2 weeks ago, i was at the filipino independence day parade in downtown manhattan. i had been using my xl1s all throughout the day. upon entering the midtown tunnel, i had the xl1s on my lap, unknowingly recording the entire drive through the tunnel. just to prove the credibility of new york law enforcement, you can bet that the minute we exited the tunnel, we were kindly asked to pull over to the side of the road. my xl1s was confiscated, i was told to record over all footage taken inside the tunnel, my xl1s was taken a second time, brought in for inspection, myself and all passengers had to produce identification. after 2 hours, we were let go. thankfully, my xl1s wasn't seized, and we didn't receive any fines. my 2 cents!

Keith Loh June 14th, 2003 04:23 PM

Hmmm that kind of puts a crimp on all the Lady-X filmmakers in the United States!

Dean Sensui June 14th, 2003 05:40 PM

Edwin...

Last September I was riding along with a firefighter in a FDNY van when he started talking about his experience on 9/11. So I quickly began recording what he had to say -- sitting in the front seat of the van with my Canon XL1 -- while he drove through one of the tunnels.

No one stopped us or bothered us a bit about it. I wonder how valuable such images could be when the truly determined could just as easily make engineering sketches? It's like saying no one is allowed to shoot pictures of the Brooklyn Bridge so the weak points aren't made public.

Here in Hawaii the Navy is just as paranoid. News media can shoot only the Memorial or the USS Missouri. Can't point anywhere else, nevermind that we were established news media there to cover the efforts of cops searching a nearby stream for a murder weapon. And people already know who we are, many of us having worked in the business for more than 20 years!

And it doesn't matter that the whole naval base is easily observed from nearby Halawa and Aiea heights -- and that it was exactly how the Japanese gathered intelligence for the Pearl Harbor attack. It also doesn't matter that there are whole boatloads of tourists with cameras pointing everywhere everyday.

They just have to make sure that the news guys don't shoot anything unrelated to news where it'll end up getting published and in the hands of terrorists. The Navy commander on scene fully understood the pointlessness of it all, but she had to follow orders from above. It was eventually (and reluctantly) straightened out.

Sometimes the war on terrorism goes overboard for lack of common sense. One guy attempts to hide a bomb in his shoes. Now grandmothers with canes are asked to doff their sneakers for fear of a bomb being smuggled onto an airplane. Egads.

Dean Sensui
Base Two Productions

Justin Wheeler June 17th, 2003 01:21 PM

Ok, I can finally share a few details, for those of you who are interested:

The XL1s was used in a simple Surveillance operation. It was mounted on a tripod, shooting out the back of a van with tinted windows, towards a home that was being watched. The intent was to capture who visited the home, and to see if anything was delivered to the home. The van was parked some 45 yards from the house. I'd set up the Camera with the digital zoom active, to increase their ability to zoom in on license plates or faces. I'd set them up with a standard Tiffen UV Filter, and also included a couple of ND filters and a Polarizer in a small lens kit that also included lens cleaning cloth and a lens pen.

They also used the still image feature to get snapsnots of a few faces.

For the Civil Libertarians out there, this surveillance was conducted under a warrant issued by a Federal judge, following previous indictments by a Federal Grand jury. The suspects are alleged to be involved in bank and wire fraud, including credit card fraud, the proceeds of which may be used to fund terrorism groups in the US and Canada. The investigation involves a Joint Task Force, including the US Secret Service, FBI and local law enforcement (probably LAPD).

The Camera that the local office my friend works at uses is a Canon Optura, which didn't provide them sufficient zoom capabilities for their needs...at least, that was their concern, which is why my buddy asked to borrow my XL1s. They weren't concerned with having to conceal the Camera, since it would be in a van with tinted windows. They weren't concerned about portability, since they wouldn't be going anywhere. Just good pictures at the 45-50 yard range.

They also have a nice Nikon still/film camera of some sort, I didn't get specifics on the lens they were using or focal lengths, but my friend said it was pretty 'fancy' looking. That was about as much as he knows about it.

Based on the footage I saw, they sat there for 2 days and shot a bunch of tape of a house. A few people came and went. Not very interesting, I'm afraid. I am told, however, that the Agent In Charge of the operation and field office here in LA was very impressed with the footage and the camera, and my buddy scored some points for getting one on the scene on short notice (and for FREE). The other agents were also impressed with the camera, even guys who'd been working for years in the business doing this stuff. Everybody thought it was pretty 'high-tech', if that gives you some idea of the type of stuff they are used to using.

So, that's the end of my indirect involvement with this case, but I hope they get these guys, if, indeed, they are involved in any way with funding terrorist organizations. I'm glad I could help, in even this small way....one more reason I am very glad I have an XL1s in my closet at home.

Peter Jefferson June 22nd, 2003 11:37 AM

here in oz, digital footage cannot be used as evidense in court due to ease of manipulation... basically you can take footage, and it can be used to survey or wahtever, but if its digital, forget it...

especially still fotos... our courts still dont recognise digital technology...

Victor Muh June 25th, 2003 03:54 PM

I think it's a good thing the cops can't afford the XL1. They need less money, not more of it.

... better off spending tax money on health, education and social welfare programs than turning a country based on freedom into a police state.

That goes for this so-called WOT. Address the core issues not their manifestations. Find and correct the causes, don't declare war on the reactions.

Brad Doan June 25th, 2003 04:26 PM

Ummm...okay then. Thanks for that. Have you considered going into politics?

~Brad


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