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-   Canon XL1S / XL1 Watchdog (https://www.dvinfo.net/forum/canon-xl1s-xl1-watchdog/)
-   -   CSTM Presets (https://www.dvinfo.net/forum/canon-xl1s-xl1-watchdog/13419-cstm-presets.html)

Mark A. Foley August 18th, 2003 11:40 AM

CSTM Presets
 
Curious about what CSTM presets you maybe using to to tweek the XL1s...
Mark

Rob Lohman August 20th, 2003 08:39 AM

I have a custom preset to lower the SETUP LEVEL to its lowest
setting (IRE floor of 0 instead of 7.5). This produces much blacker
blacks but can be illegal for NTSC broadcast though. Keep in
mind you actually need to select a preset before it becomes active!

Some other people use it for changing the sharpness a bit etc.

Christopher Hughes August 21st, 2003 01:57 PM

What setting do you use or like using on set-up level? for:
1) Making Films
2) Run and Gun shooting

Or do you just the set up level in the centre at all times? Or what settings and when?

Just for PAL, I'm not bothered about being legal for NTSC broadcast standards.

Rob Lohman September 9th, 2003 08:07 AM

I always use a 0 IRE floor (slider to the left side)...

Josh Bass September 9th, 2003 12:43 PM

I thought someone else had posted the putting the slider two notches left of its central position was the equivalent of the 0 IRE. Anyway for NTSC broadcast, won't the transmitter push the level back up to 7.5 anyway?

Christopher Hughes September 9th, 2003 04:34 PM

I have been told that -2 notches is 7.5 IRE and so FULL MINUS notches is 0 IRE.

But in USA (NTSC) country having 0 IRE is illegal, so I guess that MINUS 2 in a way would/could be stated as your (NTSC) 0 IRE equivalent.

Rob Lohman September 9th, 2003 05:04 PM

I don't know too much about NTSC. But in theory that wouldn't
be broadcast safe indeed. I'm in PAL land and don't have to
worry about that. So my slider is all the way to the left. If you
are only doing web work (and perhaps DVD?) there is no worry
for NTSC either.

Josh Bass September 10th, 2003 12:26 AM

Well, wait. If -2 notches is 7.5 IRE, then what is the default setting? Am I being cheated out of extra contrast?

Rob Lohman September 10th, 2003 03:05 AM

I think this is best answered with a set of scopes to see what
happens to the output signal... I'll see if I can get a test done
with my PAL XL1s tonight

Jeff Donald September 10th, 2003 06:12 AM

It is illegal to broadcast NTSC video with a level below 7.5 IRE. Most people do not intend their video to be broadcast. So, in effect they are losing part of the signals bandwidth by leaving setup at 7.5 IRE.

Video without the proper setup is given the proper setup before broadcast by TV stations. This is done rather crudely and will not always provide the best image quality. If you think there is a chance your video will be broadcast, it is probably best to shoot with the proper setup. Before adjusting the setup you might want to refer to Adam Wilt's site for his discussion of setup.

Tony Hall November 7th, 2004 12:35 AM

<<<-- Originally posted by Rob Lohman : I think this is best answered with a set of scopes to see what
happens to the output signal... I'll see if I can get a test done
with my PAL XL1s tonight -->>>

I tested this myself in Vegas by importing video shot with the sider all the way to the left, the slider two notches to the left, and the slider at it's default position. The Vegas waveform monitor showed:

slider all the way to the left: 0IRE
slider two notches to the left: 4IRE
default position: about 7.5IRE

It's logical to assume that the slider all the way to the right is 15IRE.

I'd like to know what the point of having all these options is. Why not just offer 7.5 and 0.

I just did my test again because I suspected that I had made a mistake and it appears that there is no absolute answer. I get different results everytime I shoot something. I'm going to try it again using a grey card to set my exposure and then shoot a chart to see what happens.

Tony Hall November 7th, 2004 03:56 AM

It seems that the default setting probably has a floor of 0IRE and anything below that crushes blacks by clipping them below the 0IRE floor of DV and anything above the default position washes out the blacks and reduces contrast. The only sure-fire way I could find to test what the real floor is was to just leave the lens cap on and record.

Here's what the -6 setting looks like on the Vegas waveform monitor:
http://img106.exs.cx/img106/2741/_6.gif
I think this might be useful if you were to shooting something really low contrast.

Here's what the default setting looks like on the Vegas waveform:
http://img106.exs.cx/img106/7784/default.gif This one appears to be close enough to the 0IRE floor... just slightly above it probably for a reason.

Here's the +6 setting:
http://img106.exs.cx/img106/6513/142.gif
This plus settings seem to increase the brightness disproportionally high. It's very washed out and low contrast.

Rob Lohman November 7th, 2004 08:59 AM

Perhaps it would be better to make your footage broadcast safe
in your editing environment (I seem to recall that most NLE's have
a broadcast safe filter for this, not sure since I don't need to use
that here)?? Then you can just shoot with the maximum latitude
(ie, slider all the way to the left) and then conform it after you've
done editing, color correction etc. (which might introduce new
problems?).

Tony Hall November 7th, 2004 03:00 PM

That's the thing, the slider all the way to the left doesn't give maximum lattitude. It crushes the blacks and you actually loose information in the shadows. Maximum lattitude is actually the default position and maybe a notch to the left.

Since the DV format always has a floor of 0 IRE no matter what your camcorder setting is, if you put the slider all the way to the left, it makes the "virtual" floor below 0IRE thus causing much of your blacks to get clipped depending on what you're filming and your exposure.

I don't care about being broadcast safe for what I'm doing. If my footage is ever broadcast, then the network can convert it.

I was just playing around with it all last night and came to the above conclusions.

My advice is to leave the slider in the default position unless you are trying to specifically darken or lighten the blacks. I've got DV Rack on the way, so I'll be able to try it live when it arrives.

Josh Bass November 7th, 2004 03:17 PM

On my last short, I meant to lower the black two notches left, 'cause I thought it made it more "filmy". I'm glad I forgot to do it until near the end of the day, because after seeing it in the monitor, I went back to default again.

Pulling the blacks down, in my experience, makes caucasian skin tones (and therefore, I'm assuming things similar to that color range) go more orange. . .not pretty.

Mathieu Ghekiere November 7th, 2004 04:31 PM

I have a question, maybe a little off topic here, and also a very stupid question maybe, but I'll ask anyway :-p

I have my XL1S for a couple of days, and I haven't had much time to play with it, so it could be I'm just doing something wrong but... If you at the main menu go to customer presets and you change some of the settings... and you return, you see it back normal in the viewfinder? Is that normal? I tried to put it in black and white (I know if you film you should do it in post, but I just tried a little bit) and when I returned the image in my viewfinder was back in color...
I connected the XL1S to my tv, where it was in black and white, but do you HAVE to have a seperate monitor to see what your custom settings look like?

Sorry if it's a stupid question, and thanks for the possible feedback!

Josh Bass November 7th, 2004 04:57 PM

You have to turn the custom preset on, is the thing. YOu select the settings for each preset (1,2,3) in the menu, and then you have to find the custom preset buttons (in that red part that slides away), and turn on whichever preset you want. I always have to fumble with it a litte bit.

In the words of everyone who says it "hope this helps."

Mathieu Ghekiere November 7th, 2004 05:06 PM

Thank you very much Joss. I haven't got the time to try it now, but I'll surely try later.

(héhé, I don't have a monitor by the way, but at the store where I bought my tripod they had a little demo model of a little tv, 37 centimeters, for 99 euro. So I bought it, thinking it would be a very cheap way of owning a monitor.
Now I have it, and offcourse it doesn't work on batteries, and it's a real drag to carry around, serieusly, the thing is heavy! But it costed me less money than a usuall monitor and it's a larger screen than a monitor... Actually this all doesn't matter and I now should be working, but I liked to tell it :-))

Thanks again :-)

Rob Lohman November 9th, 2004 10:24 AM

<<<-- Originally posted by Tony Hall : That's the thing, the slider all the way to the left doesn't give maximum lattitude. It crushes the blacks and you actually loose information in the shadows. Maximum lattitude is actually the default position and maybe a notch to the left. -->>>

I'm wondering whether this could be different in PAL versus NTSC
models of the XL1S. Unfortunately I do not have my XL1S anymore
so can't verify this, but I'm pretty sure my PAL camera did NOT
work in that fashion. Canon should loan me one to test <g>

Is there anyone else with a PAL XL1S who can verify some of this
on scopes (like in Vegas)?

Mathieu Ghekiere November 9th, 2004 01:32 PM

Rob, just out of curiousity, how come you don't have it anymore? did you buy the xl2?
It's just because I read a lot of stuff on the boards, including you giving much tips around the xl1s, now it's surprising to read you don't have it anymore.
Thanks,

Rob Lohman November 9th, 2004 01:46 PM

Well, the basic reason I sold it was a financial one. And since I
wasn't use it that much it was easier to make this decision
(although still hard). In the meantime I'm focussing on
another very important part: the story/script. Working on some
ideas and other stuff till I can get back in the game basically.

I've had the XL1S for nearly 3 years, so that's why I can
sometimes still talk about as if I still have it (I know how I used
it and what worked or didn't work for me).

Unfortunately I don't own any camera at this point in time nor
do I have the resources to buy one (especially the XL2, damn).....

I hope this explains my "position".

Mathieu Ghekiere November 9th, 2004 05:09 PM

Yes, it does. Thank you for the explanation.
It's kind of comforting to know that someone in a not too far away place knows a lot of it :-)
The Netherlands can be a while driving, but it still isn't as far as America :-)

I wish you very much luck with writing and thinking about scripts etcetera!
I believe this is one of the most interesting phases in movie making.

Thanks again,

Tony Hall November 9th, 2004 06:16 PM

I've got DV Rack on the way, so I'll do some tests with that when it comes too.

Rob Lohman November 10th, 2004 03:55 AM

Mathieu: thanks! It is an important part indeed! I have a film buddy
in Belgium as well (in the Belgium part of "Limburg"?), I myself
am in the northern part of Holland. Do you ever go to the IBC
convention (largest film/tv convention in Europe) in Amsterdam?

Mathieu Ghekiere November 10th, 2004 11:34 AM

No, I have still a very lot to learn.
I didn't even know it existed. I really should look out for such things :-)

I'll look it up once. Thing is, between now and mid-january (I don't know if this is spelled right :-p) I have very little time.
After that I have some more spare time :-)

Thanks for the information :-)!
(BTW, I live actually more to the west side of Belgium, only an hour driving the borders from France I think...)

Rob Lohman November 10th, 2004 12:04 PM

Check out their website: www.ibc.org

The event is always in september and runs for 5 days. It has all
kind of cool film/tv equipment and shows and whatnot, don't
worry about your "level" or what you've done. It's a cool place
to visit and see whats out there! This year attendence was free
if you registered early.

In 2005 it will be from 9 till 13th of september.

Mathieu Ghekiere November 10th, 2004 12:51 PM

Thank you very much!

Tony Hall November 16th, 2004 11:35 AM

<<<-- Originally posted by Rob Lohman : <<<-- Originally posted by Tony Hall : That's the thing, the slider all the way to the left doesn't give maximum lattitude. It crushes the blacks and you actually loose information in the shadows. Maximum lattitude is actually the default position and maybe a notch to the left. -->>>

I'm wondering whether this could be different in PAL versus NTSC
models of the XL1S. Unfortunately I do not have my XL1S anymore
so can't verify this, but I'm pretty sure my PAL camera did NOT
work in that fashion. Canon should loan me one to test <g>

Is there anyone else with a PAL XL1S who can verify some of this
on scopes (like in Vegas)? -->>>j

Hey Rob, I got DV Rack in the mail today and it seems that you were right and Vegas is wrong... The default setting on the XL1s give a 7.5 floor in DV Rack and the slider all the way to the left gives a 0 floor.

It really doesn't make any sense, but that's the results I've got. Maybe when I have time, I'll capture some footage with DV Rack and observe the waveform closely. Then import that same footage into Vegas to see what it looks like on the Vegas waveform.

Rob Lohman November 17th, 2004 05:08 AM

That would be a neat comparison, especially if you could make
some screenshots. It's weird that it is so unknown what exactly
goes on. Perhaps the guys from DV Rack can comment on how
they display this iinformation to narrow down what is going on?

Thanks for your time, research and reporting it back!


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