<<<-- Originally posted by Brad_DeWees : ...I don't think you read the entire thread because you missed some key points from earlier posts.<<<

You are quite right. I stand corrected.

<<<--We know that Premiere is supposed to capture at 29.97. The problem is that it's not in all cases. Mine for example, was reporting a capture rate of 29.96. Other's were capturing at 29.95.

In cases where the capture rate was something other than 29.97, the audio gets out of sync. And THAT is the problem.
-Brad -->>>

If that's the case then I still feel it's a read out problem. If the sync is anything less than the correct one you'd be having more than just audio problems. A time base corrector can perform miracles but it corrects the entire signal. If the picture is not rolling over or being pulled to the side (all signs of sync problems) I would look elsewhere for the problem. There have been times, even with Avids, when we've had to slide the audio track a few frames (usually 4) to get the audio in sync. We've never been able to track the source of the problem (with Avid) since it has been more of a nuisance than a big problem.

Caveat emptor - I could be completely wrong since my basis for analyzing the problem is primarily in the analog world, not digital, which has progressed more rapidly than I can keep up with.

Robin,

You said that the last time your camera came back from Canon it was broken. The fact is the that when you bought your camera from Canon your camera was broken. Your camera is recording at an off sampling rate instead of a true 48000 kHz. You've proved that several times over with all of your testing. If you play back a tape that you've recorded in your XL-1 in any other camera or deck, it will capture at the 29.96. If you play a tape on your XL-1 that you've recorded in any other DV device, it will capture at 29.97. You're in serious denial. Premiere bases it's frame rate count on the sampling rate of the video clip. Granted, probably not the best thought out design. But, if your camera was doing things correctly to begin with, you wouldn't be having this problem.

If the trained monkeys at Canon broke your camera broke your camera the last time you sent it in, I'm confused about why you continue to have so much faith in their ability to give good technical advice.

As for the tip for using Scenalyzer, that came directly from this forum. Obviously Adobe monitors this forum looking for ways to help folks like you. Can you say that about Canon?

- Jack

I tend to avoid Premier like the plague. Dunno how many times this has saved me endless hours of grief.

Hey, Ozzie--

Speaking of "Compatible Color", remember the old CBS system with the rotating wheel? It wasn't compatible (thus its non-acceptance), but the colors were sure better back then.

Uh, oh--I'm dating myself!

Cheers, Vic

<<<-- Originally posted by Vic Owen : Hey, Ozzie-- Speaking of "Compatible Color", remember the old CBS system with the rotating wheel? It wasn't compatible (thus its non-acceptance), but the colors were sure better back then.

Uh, oh--I'm dating myself! Cheers, Vic -->>>

You are certainly dating yourself. I was still in diapers then. A bit of trivia - the CBS rotating wheel was a cheaper and better system to produce color. The problem - it wasn't compatible which the FCC demanded. BUT - that cheap and simple system did find its way into the space program and the first COLOR pictures from the moon were captured using that very same system.

<<<-- Originally posted by Jack Mitchell : Robin,

You said that the last time your camera came back from Canon it was broken. The fact is the that when you bought your camera from Canon your camera was broken. Your camera is recording at an off sampling rate instead of a true 48000 kHz. You've proved that several times over with all of your testing. If you play back a tape that you've recorded in your XL-1 in any other camera or deck, it will capture at the 29.96. If you play a tape on your XL-1 that you've recorded in any other DV device, it will capture at 29.97. You're in serious denial. Premiere bases it's frame rate count on the sampling rate of the video clip. Granted, probably not the best thought out design. But, if your camera was doing things correctly to begin with, you wouldn't be having this problem.

If the trained monkeys at Canon broke your camera broke your camera the last time you sent it in, I'm confused about why you continue to have so much faith in their ability to give good technical advice.

As for the tip for using Scenalyzer, that came directly from this forum. Obviously Adobe monitors this forum looking for ways to help folks like you. Can you say that about Canon?

- Jack -->>>

The Canon XL-1 audio sampling rate has been reported by people smarter than I as being 48.006 and that is what causes the drift on long clips.

The 29.97 frame rate came along with the compatibility issue when color TV came out. The "drop frame" actually adjusts the time code using a set formula. There are a number of good explanations of this on the web. Do a Google.

It's not even an issue with me any more. Scenalyzer Live solved the problem and it's a darn good capture utility with superb machine control and analog capture to boot.

...and yes, the old RGB color wheel camera did make that first trip to the moon. Remember the three color plastic sheets that you pasted over the B&W tv screen to get "color"?

I, too, am old.

Wow! That's fascinating...I wasn't aware of that. As I recall, it wasn't compatible with B&W, so rejected. I can remember promos mentioning "RCA Compatible Color" or something like that. I was born in the early 40s, so I must have been close to diapers then, as well. (Some would say we're close now!)

Vic

<<<-- Originally posted by Vic Owen : Wow! That's fascinating...I wasn't aware of that. As I recall, it wasn't compatible with B&W, so rejected. I can remember promos mentioning "RCA Compatible Color" or something like that. I was born in the early 40s, so I must have been close to diapers then, as well. (Some would say we're close now!) Vic -->>>

LOL! Good to see another "old foggie" interested in new toys. I've never outgrown them. My 14 year old son keeps reminding me of that. By the way, I was born right smack in the middle of the 40s, and I hope I'm still a long way from diapers.

I beg your pardon. I was born in 1948...and not an "old foggie" yet. Maybe it's those three extra years ya got on me, Ozzie.....LOL

Well, to quote you pal: "...I was born in the early 40s" Humm... so you work for the FAA hey? Are you one of those guys who keeps asking "you're cleared to where?" ;-)

Sorry to everyone but this has gone waaay off topic.

So how about that XL-1S? By the way, I'm buying one from ZGC. Christine put together a package that can't be found anywhere else. A plug but an honest one. It's good to find a store that really cares about the products they sell and how their customers will use them. I haven't found any other retailer that will sell you the system configured the way you want it.

After reading all the new and improved specs of the XL-1S I think it's coming very close to what I've been used to. The only thing lacking is SMPTE time code. A big lack in my opinion. I've heard the reason for not using SMPTE code is not so much hardware (although that alone would ad to the cost) but the license fee Canon would need to pay SMPTE. That would put the camera into a whole other price bracket. But the 1S claims to have SMPTE bars, so I don't know what the real story is.

My feeble attempt to abide by Chris' rules.

Actually, fairly close. I manage the field office that's responsible for the operation of the FAA air traffic systems at Sea-Tac. But, you're right -- I'd better save this stuff for the bio section (Sorry, Chris!) I'll have to say, though, this is an enjoyable community over here in land of the wierd looking camera!

Vic


<<<-- Originally posted by ozziealfonso : Well, to quote you pal: "...I was born in the early 40s" Humm... so you work for the FAA hey? Are you one of those guys who keeps asking "you're cleared to where?" ;-)

Sorry to everyone but this has gone waaay off topic.

Reply to Dave W. & Jack M.
 

Dave, I want to issue a challenge to you(and to Jack M.). Please give the Canon Service Center a call and tell them that your Xl1 is recording at a sampling rate of 48.006 Khz and you need a new one that is recording at 48.000Khz and give me some feedback on what they say.
Please point me in the direction of your information that you have concerning the sampling rate problem.

I got it back from Canon with an Adobe KB article about correcting audio sync problems. It didn't help, but getting sclive from Scenalyzer.com did.
-Brad

Reply to Brad
 

Hi Brad, same result here. That was the first thing they did. My camera is right now back at Canon and they have ordered a main bd (circuit board) for it from Japan. Unfortunately I (or they) do not know when I will be seeing my camera again since the part has not yet arrived. When It comes back I will let you know if it works correctly or not. But like you I have purchased Scanalyzer and I am capturing everything with it and it all is coming in at 29.97 using my FireWire card. Gob bless the person who wrote that code!
If you want some info on the 48Khz issue go to www.adamwilt.com

Hmm, good reading Robin. I spent alot of time searching prior to sending in the camera and never came across that. I take it you sent it back to have them fix the audio problem, or was there some other gremlin at work?
-Brad

It all stemmed from the audio sync issue. This is the fourth time at their repair depot. Hopefully the main board replacement will fix it. I emailed them and I have been invited to escalate the request if the results on this repair are not satisfactory.
Have a good weekend!

Where is your camera, Irvine CA or Jamesburg NJ?

Jamesburg...are there differences?

I have had the same results with Scenalyzer. I don't understand how a $33.00 program is able to capture from the XL-1 in perfect sync while this is a problem with Cinestream, Premiere and FCP. One would think that if one program could compensate correctly, they all should be able to compensate similarly.

Hear! Hear!
I am thinking the same thing.

On color wheels in space. Back in the olden days when moon trip decisions were being taken (BTW, that was years before they were actually made) color wheel were no doubt lighter than NTSC color cameras and weight was a big factor in decision making. For color, just add a color wheel to a B&W camera! In the 50 color wheel was a more robust technology!

But the reason we have NTSC is the political clout of Sarnoff (from RCA/NBC) coupled with the Korean war. The war delayed the decision on which color system to use by 3 years. And over that time period the installed base of B&W sets became large enough that color had to be compatible with B&W sets.

Robin Greenidge:

<< Jamesburg...are there differences? >>

There shouldn't be. Irvine will tell you they're better than Jamesburg; Jamesburg will tell you they're better than Irvine. My favorite service technician, Jerry, used to be in Irvine but now he's in Jamesburg. Just taking my own little survey here, is all.

There is a Jerry M. at the Jamesburg facility...is that him? I have spoken with him on a few occasions.

xl1-s , Premiere, 1394
 

Hello

I am in DV kindergarten and would appreciate an update form those who are grappling with the audio sync problems related to xl1-s/Premiere/1394 hookup. I have Premiere 6.0 on order and am nearly committed to purchasing an xl1-s.

Gary

Premiere
 

If you're in Kindergarten, Gary, I'm, maybe, three months into first grade. But I went through aligning an XL-1s with DV 500 for capture with a friend recently and while I don't know the exact details, I DO know that it all hinged on downloading a new patch from Pinnacle Premiere and getting some additional spec.s ($20.00) from their on-line help.


It's a huge download...premiere's latest I guess, but THAT's where my "expert" pal found the answer and as far as I know my friend is capturing w/o probs. If you want to communicate directly write me and I'll hand you to my expert!

Meg

Just got my camera back from Canon, it took about two months for them to obtain a part from Japan for it. They apparently replaced the main board because of some other issues I was having.

Just got my camera back from Canon, it took about two months for them to obtain a part from Japan for it. They apparently replaced the main board because of some other issues I was having.
I have abandoned the Premiere capture and have been using Scenalyer which has been working flawlessly!

The Final Word?
 

Hi Robin,

Your last message was that you had gotten the camera back and that you were using Scenalyzer to capture. But have the changes made to your camera resolved the XL1/Premiere issue?

Thank you.

Tim

Hi Tim,
I have not been using the Premiere capture feature for quite some time now but I just captured a few seconds with it and the frame rate reads 29.97fps. That to me is a good indication that Canon did fix the problem by replacing the main board. I will capture a 10 min segment later to check for audio drift and I will let you know, but at this point in time it looks as if all is well. If the frame rate reads anything but 29.97 that is a good indication that things will drift as time progresses.

Are you having some difficulty with your camera?

Hi Robin and Thank You
 

Thanks for the speedy reply. I've been hanging around on the periphery of the XL1 world but haven't purchased a camera yet and this has been one of the issues I've been watching in making a final decision - though the use of Scenalyzer seems like an easy workaround.

Would appreciate your comments after you've made that 10 minute test. Thank you.

Tim

Has anyone tested this audio sync problem aginst OS 9 and OS 10? I also have audio problmes in OS 10 with Final Cut Pro 3. I checked the audio and sure enough the rate was 48.0005 Also dose the program you guys have used as an alternative to FCP or Premiere work on a Mac?

I am not sure that it works with the Mac OS or not but there is a free download at their website. Give it a try! I am assuming that it would because it is essentially a 1394 based video capture program. Here's the website http://www.scenalyzer.com/

All the best to you

Premiere XL1 Testing
 

I wanted to respond to some old posts from this thread -- I wish I'd seen them when they were posted. I am in charge of testing Premiere for compatibility with DV devices at Adobe.

Don Palomaki had it right. Many NTSC XL1's capture at 48009 Hz and report it as 48000.

I actually remember Robin's case last fall -- the top-level tech support contacted me about a case that fits Robin's description. I was the one who told them about the experimental .ini switch (ForceNTSCFrameRate). This is essentially what Final Cut Pro's checkbox does, but we didn't publicize it because we made a driver change that fixed this problem -- at least for my XL1 (and tapes made with other XL1's). I am surprised to learn that the switch did not work, and I will take a closer look and maybe borrow another XL1.

If I may quote aibrahim:

> BTW, this problem is exhibited on just about any camera
> that is not a VX2000 or VX1000. I understand that Adobe
> uses those two cameras to test Premiere in house... Many
> manufacturers also test with a large number of DV
> devices...but Adobe...UGH.

aibrahim, you were misinformed. I was recruited to Adobe from Digital Origin (now part of Discreet) where I worked on what is now the Cinestream product, which was tested with and supports many dozens of cameras. (Yes, Robin, I worked on MotoDV Studio) When I came to Adobe, I was charged with setting up a similar lab. Premiere 6.0 was tested with over thirty different devices, and I buy new cameras every quarter.

And that problem is ONLY evident on the XL1.

Also, you were misinformed about the Mac. The Mac is fine, and DV editing as we now know it has been working reliably since the PowerMac 8500.

We are, however, working under certain constraints that are new for me. Adobe's DV support relies on the low-level DV drivers included with QuickTime (on the Mac) and DirectShow (on Windows). Unlike a hardware manufacturer with proprietary DV drivers, we only have access to the data from the DV stream that Apple and Microsoft pass on to us. This limits how tightly we can integrate with DV and DV devices. In any case, we work very hard to support a broad range of popular devices in a broad range of prices and markets.

That said, I heartily encourage users to investigate the alternatives from the third party hardware manufacturers. They have cool boards with great features. I can't recommend any one over the others because it would annoy the others -- besides, I don't know them really well because I spend all my time with the built-in DV support...

I love the XL1 as much as anybody on this board. It's a blast to shoot with and has unique features that do not appear on cameras costing many times the price (4-channel simultaneous capture, for example) and it's the closest thing to progressive-scan you can get in a three-chip DV camera, generally. I have spent a lot of time trying to make sure that camera works well with Premiere, but I only have one and I know that there have been a few subtle differences among units. I will continue to work to support it.


--Mike Jennings
--Adobe Dynamic Media QA

Hi Tim
 

Just ran a couple ather quick captures using Premiere's and I still have the same problem. The capture is coming in at 29.96 fps! I guess when I did it a few days ago it was a fluke or something...Anyhow I am pretty much going to avoid capturing with Premiere and I am sticking with the Scenalyzer for my capturing. I cannot afford to lose a few hours of capture time because of synch issues.
Mike thanks for the insight, I think it is safe to say that Premiere and Canon Xl1's(not Xl1-s!) are not a good mix when it comes to plain'ol Firewire card capture.

Thanks Robin
 

Considering how aggressively you've had Canon service your camera, I'll conclude that there is little help for the XL1/Premiere issue from the XL1 angle of it. I'm glad to see that Premiere representatives (i.e. Mike) are looking at this issue now. Maybe they can do a Scenalyzer-type thing to work around the incompatibility... an upgrade, a plug-in, or whatever.

Thank you for your work and the information you've shared with this forum.

Tim