Using MXF conversion tool provided it should work today, but we are hoping to bypass that step and convert the captured media directly. So it will work as soon as your camera arrives, and hopeful get even better.

I'm (somewhat) glad I wasn't around for that. I learned on matching XL1 to XL1S... nice and simple :)

As a younger-generation videographer/filmmaker, I've always wished I had the film based training, as all the terminology and techniques seems to come from there. :) Another example would be 'masking' in photoshop being based off of a physical process for developing film, and how they even kept the red color of the chemical used for the process. I think I've got that correct, anyways. :)

C

I don't really follow this. Does that mean that you plan to have the conversion from MXF (to avi I asume) happen as we drag and drop the files from the SxS card to the Hard Disk?

Does that mean that you encourage us to use your HDLink program instead of the program provided by Sony included with the camera?

I believe what David Newman was originally saying is that the Sony tool will allow you to convert MXFs to something usable, and HDLink can convert THAT to Cineform, but in the future, he plans to enable you to convert the new MXFs directly in HDLink, once the new XD format revision is available to test with. The drag and drop thing from SxS would be cool, but don't hold your breath.

>Using MXF conversion tool provided it should work today, but we are hoping to >bypass that step and convert the captured media directly.

So, am I understanding this correctly that when I copy my files from the SxS card to my hard drive, I then have to convert them to MXF (using the Sony tool) and then convert them again to Cineform? Is that how it works?

If so, I'm hoping Cineform is able to convert the raw files that are captured to my SxS card. That would sure help workflow.

The camera shoots in a non-MXF format (we know what it is yet I'm not sure that is public knowledge.) Sony is providing a tool to wrap into MXF to match their existing XDCAM-HD workful. We hope to use HDlink to convert the SxS media directly from Flash to AVIs on your hard drive.

That would be sweet indeed. I hope that works out.

I'm presuming that for the EX, we are talking about Prospect.... not Aspect?

Aspect HD will likely work, although it will need to down convert the HQ 1920 materials to 1440. This will make Aspect HD a little slower on conversion, and of course lower resolution. Prospect HD is the sweet spot of EX.

What about Neo? Will the 1920x1080 flavor of Neo work as well?

Yes NEO HD/2K will work without resolution reductions, and NEO HDV should work through scaling the image to fix the encoder license.

For Aspect HD and NEO HDV, I'm currently only saying "should work", as it hasn't been tested yet.

My intention is to upgrade one of my NEO HDV licenses to NEO HD, since I wish to retain the 1920 x1080P resolution. My present HDV workflow is to convert m2t files to avi before editing, except when time is tight. My NLE (Vegas Pro 8) handles HDV and MXF extremely well and many editors don't consider a digital intermediate useful; time is money. My information is that the unwrapper Sony is supplying with the EX is a temporary solution until an upgrade patch to Vegas Pro 8 incorporates the function; other NLEs may continue to need the software but FCP (for one) will have no problems handling the MXF format.

Conversion of the SxS files to MXF is very quick (using the supplied software) and can be dropped straight onto the timeline for appraisal, quick cut, or viewing by a client. The data files can be copied to a USB HDD or DVD for the client.

Converting to Cineform avi directly from the SxS cards doesn't appear to offer any advantages and will take some time to do (in my experience on ordinary dual core machines). Not something one would wish to do "on the job", most especially when cards are being downloaded and reused; certainly that is an economy (these cards aren't cheap) that I'm planning on using.

Please explain the workflow Cineform have in mind and the advantages of converting to avi directly from the SxS cards.

It is to save a step. Native EX files (whether on SxS or transferred to disk) would have to be converted to MXF before using HDLink to convert to AVI. However wouldn't it be nice to transfer the data quickly as is, then batch in HDLink to AVIs while you are using the SxS again in camera. Media is not tied up.

Would it be nice? Trouble is that most of us have seen only the demonstration and may not fully appreciate the reasons why it might or might not be nice. Accepting that the native EX files do have to be converted to something else for viewing (other than in camera), which path is quickest for that? Is it using the Sony package to turn them into MXF files, or NEO to turn them into AVI files? The Sony package seemed very quick, but I assume that you argue that simply downloading the card data is extremely quick. In terms of tying up resources to generate viewable files I would bet on NEO to win the hogging contest. However I presume that HDLink will be capable of producing both MXF and AVI files in the process (as NEO HDV can produce both m2t captures and avi DIs).
It seems to me that NEO will be too slow to process EX files to DIs "on the fly", so one will want the MXF files for assessment and for clients.
I daresay I'm biased by my HDV experience of finding capture/convert unreliable and slow, so I capture first and then convert overnight. I've also suffered pixellation problems in the conversion, so I really want those original data files. Yes, I note that your proposed workflow retains the EX files, so they're always there if the job has to be repeated.
So while it could be nice, I expect generating DIs will need two steps, whatever packages are employed.
I'm sure you can set me straight!!

I believe the primary audience that Cineform is trying to cater to are non-Vegas users who will have NO other workflow to compare to. I am sure that Cineform will offer certain advantages to Sony's native workflow in Vegas, but it will have a much more significant impact on people in other NLE apps who have NO other supported solutons for editing the new format. Conversion speed is not even an issue, as Cineform will be the only option, at least for the time being.

Viewing and editing are two very different aspects, and while Sony will most likely provide a software viewing solution with the camera, that by no means ensures that the files can be edited. On the otherhand, HDLink may not be the easiest way to view files during a shoot.

It is similar to HDV, where with Premiere 1-1.5, Cineform was THE way to edit HDV, and then with the release of PPro 2.0, Cineform became A way to edit it. It is likely that other workflows for XDCam-EX will be developed, but Cineform has a good record for being first to the scene with a usable solution as new formats are released, which is greatly appreciated by those of us trying to adopt those formats early on.

My understanding is that Avid, Edius, FCP and Vegas all have capabilities for working with MXF files; where not now, patches will be released for them when the EX is released. Vegas has had the capability since version 7. Premiere Pro didn't show at the roadshows, so I've no idea of the status for that NLE.

I'm a happy Cineform customer (have two NEO HDV licenses as well as two HDConnect licenses, so you should understand that I'm not criticizing the company. I'm one of its "true believers".

That said, there are important issues that must be clear. Wanting to upgrade to NEO HD I was directed to this discussion by Jake Segraves because he wasn't quite across all the issues raised by EX for Cineform. Some time ago I upgraded from HDConnect to NEO HDV for one machine whose AMD CPU lacked the necessary facilities, a matter that Cineform hadn't made clear at the time (consequently a warning was put clearly on the website). So now I ask if something isn't clear.

When doing a job for a client we have to be absolutely clear about workflow. If the client expects to review material shot and to take away raw copies at the end of the day, I have to be clear on process. The EX offers the great benefit of rapid generation of client copies, a huge improvement over tape (unless you're running on-line recorders).

The Clip Browser software that comes with the EX will run on Windows and Mac machines and allows browsing of clips, copying of clip files, playback of clips on a PC or Mac, combine clips segmented across two SxS cards, and convert MP4 files to the MXF format for input to NLEs. The clips on the SxS can be copied without conversion.

So there is the facility for client (and me) to quickly review clips. Everyone gets that software and I understand we are permitted to provide copies to clients. What isn't clear (to me) from David's description is how HDLink will improve on this and I have already described where I can see deficiencies rather than benefits. When I go into my NLE I want to use Cineform, but expect to enter that stage when shooting pressure is off.

I contacted Jake to check that upgrading to NEO HD is the right decision to maintain full 1920 x1080 P capabilities. First answer was "yes", but here I find that it isn't quite so clear cut; people are still figuring out how to configure the software and I wonder if there isn't a little confusion about needs. There's the trap of being an early adopter of a new format.

I understand people need efficient workflows, and are under time constraints.

I ultilise Prospect 2k for it's ability to provide 10-bit 1080p, in a manageable file size and most of all, a multi-generational visually lossless codec, for grading or other post. So unless doing only straights cuts without re-rendering to the source codec (usually lossy on re-encode for CC or transitions, etc), I always want to use the CineForm codec to master, and then encode to other codecs from there.

Serena, does your source image suffer if you do not use the CineForm codec, or do you have an alternative workflow?

Edit: Serena, I posted without seeing your post above.

I suspect my post above answered your question, but just to be clear I agree with your workflow (excepting that I use Vegas Pro 8). Many people seem to think that cutting long GOPs is fine and indeed Vegas handles them well, but the Cineform DI path is superior (in my assessment). However I recognise that not every operator has the time to generate DIs and not all clients can see the benefits. If the EX outputs 10 bit on the HD-SDI that would make a strong case for heading over to Prospect (I have CS3 in the system), but the word is that it's only 8 bit in a 10 bit stream. Certainly only 8 bit on the SxS card (pity really). Bit odd really that Sony kept the camera to 8 bit when Vegas Pro 8 will handle 32 bit.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned is that because NEO HD handles 10 bit, even though the source material is limited to 8 bit, the DI should have smoother rounding errors.

Maybe 8 bit isn't so odd when you think how 10 bit would have affected the storage capacity of the SxS cards.

Serena, apologies, my initial comments about the benefits of CineForm were more directed at the general forum reader. Beyond being able to ingest and edit the new EX footage via the CineForm option to be released in due course, the multi-generational visually lossless codec mostly draws me toward CineForm.

Yes, you did answer my question, thank you, and raised some of interesting points I really want a true and clear answer from Sony reps, that being, is the HD-SDI signal out of the EX a true 10-bit source or truncated 8-bit, sitting in a 10-bit stream. If a true 10-bit image, this is going to be the quantum leap I am looking for from such a camera. Imagine 1024 steps of greyscale levels from 10-bit, as opposed to 256 steps if 8-bit. If not a 10-bit image, this is still an impressive camera for the price range.

I am not familiar with the NEO capabilities, 8/10-bit. I do submit benefits editing an 8-bit timeline and then processing the CC of the final edit in a 10-bit space, should provide a better looking encode, less prospect of banding to some extent, etc. It is some times hard to tell, for example, if 8-bit monitoring.

As for the 8 and not 10-bit encode to SxS, perhaps part of this is also to preserve some of their broadcast, current on the shoulder cameras, and save this for the ones they will being releasing next?

Chris, no apologies needed! Now if you like 10 bit for CC, try 32 bit in Vegas. Many are very pleased with the reduction in artifacts (such as colour banding).

Agree that 8 bit is a real pain to use (compared to film exceeding 12 bit) but I'm looking forward to experimenting with the gamma curves the EX has built in, together with controls of knee points and black stretch. Going to take a while to learn, but I think the practical latitude is going to be a lot greater than 8 bits indicates. Sensor A/D convertor is 14 bit (although this doesn't mean that the cmos has a 14 bit range) while output to card is 8 bit, so how you set gamma will determine scene latitude recorded. I'll be very happy if I can generate wide latitude images that, while looking flat out of the camera, can be graded well.

Serena, if I am not mistaken, since Premiere Pro 2, 32-bit internal processing and 10-bit video and 16-bit PSD file encoding has been available.

I read and hear people impressed by Vegas 8 having 32-bit processing, however, is it true that there is no greater than 8-bit file format that can be saved? If so, does truncating back to 8-bit have limited benefit?

As for the resolution of the EX, I can't wait! Also, as for it's sensitivity in low light, I really hope it is good, without the noise. Getting the curve right at the shoot will help, so that we are not pushing the limits of 4:2:0 in post. The HD-SDI out to an XDR type box is cool, even nicer for me if encoded to CineForm 10-bit at 1080p.

Edit: Regarding the use of knee, I try to not go above 'low' on my current camera, as the 8-bit encoding can make the results often funky. Always some play off in the image chain...

Where are these AU$9k deals?

And where is the footage, anyone?

I understand that the new 32 bit in Vegas applies to the video files rather than just to internal processing, for 8 bit internal processing wouldn't get you very far.

If you haven't yet ordered the EX and are interested in the cheaper deal I'll see if it's still on. Unfortunately I got carried away and ordered mine too soon to participate. The idea was to do a bulk purchase and get a better price that way; using market power!

Please let me know too! I'm very keen.

Serena, does Vegas 8 allow you to save 10-bit AVI or 10-bit NEO files?

I had that day ordered the EX through Noel at TasmanAV. I am cool with my deal, I just thought perhaps that price you mentioned may be available straight up from an authorised Sony dealer here in AU. My deal gets me the addition of a Kata bag and the larger battery. I really want the EX's extra resolution and detail, together with (hopefully) low light sensitivity and reduced noise. I sound like a broken record, however, these are things I need to improve for some proposed productions that are specifically affected by these shooting conditions, and CineForm will stop what ever I capture from degrading any further, save my own destructive processing.

Thanks for the feedback. Now we wait....

Confused About MP4
 

The EX records natively in the MP4 format (presumably in both camera modes).

Unless I'm missing something, isn't this format readable by Premiere?

I understand even if so, we're stuck with long GOP unless transcoded by Prospect or Aspect... but can Premiere edit EX's raw files?

What does MXF provide that either MP4 or Cineform files do not?

If MXF would take off as widely adopted wrapping format is has it pluses, but it main limitation, as with MP4, is the limited tool support. While the CineForm compression is more robust for production, what makes it so easy to use is it AVI wrapper format (MOV on Mac,) allowing to widest range of compatibility with video post-production and media authoring tools.

Vegas? Yes.

The deal? Yes the price was a straight up from an authorised dealer in Sydney, but obtained by one of our major contributors here. He proposed arranging to buy in bulk (5 or more to cut the price even more), but that is his deal and I reckon I must leave it to him to contact anyone interested. I can prompt him, but not more.

I still don't get the advantage of going through an MP4 to MXF conversion. If this is just an MXF wrapper... then I suppose it isn't a true conversion.

I was under the impression that MP4 was more universal than MXF, but if that isn't the case... then putting an MXF wrapper for wider usability makes sense.

Still doesn't answer the question of whether Premiere can edit EX files (MP4) natively, albeit... less efficiently than Cineform AVI, as is the case with M2T files.

Sorry, some NDA restiction limit me from fully addressing the question. Some tools will use MP4 for some clips types natively, others prefer MXF, and others still prefer AVI.

Serena, I may contact you in due course to get contributors details, as I may require a second EX end of Q1 2008, and also, a friend of mine will be looking for an EX, if mine proves to solve limitations with his existing camera. Thanks.

I don't think HDlink will benefit you for THIS part of the process, but it should not effect it at all. Someone else mentioned auto-converting files to CF AVI on copy from the SxS card, but that is not the current workflow, and this is not the step David Newman was referring to skipping. You will still have your raw SxS data available for preview and client dailies, and HDLink will make conversions after the fact. This should be very similar to the P2->Cineform workflow. I believe the idea is that hopefully in the near future, you will not need to convert your raw files to MXF before importing them into HDLink.

David, was curious as to when the NDA expires and you can fill us in with
more details...

Question:

There's a thread here discussing the fact that the Sony software that ships with the camera (which is already available for download) only allows conversion of files into 1440x1080 files. So far, the Sony software does not allow for the preservation of full 1920x1080 files (presumably because their current XD-Cam standard is 1440x1080).

That said, unless Prospect HD does get updated to bypass the Sony software, there's no way we can work with 1920x1080 footage!

Because if we use HDLink to turn the MXFs into AVIs, we'll be doing it with 1440x1080 MXFs.

Am I right? It seems a huge oversight for Sony not to enable us to edit the full 1920 reolution that this camera is capable of.

But as it stands, I'm under the impression that possible CS3 workflows are (for HQ mode only):

OPTION A:
1. Shoot 1920x1080 MP4.
2. Drag to PC.
3. Use Sony Software to convert 1920x1080 MP4 to 1440x1080 MXF.
4. Use HDLink to convert 1440x1080 MXF to 1440x1080 AVI.
5. Edit in CS3 with Prospect HD.

OPTION B (if I understand David correctly):
1. Shoot 1920x1080 MP4
2. Drag to PC.
3. Use HDLink to convert 1920x1080 MP4 to 1920x1080 AVI.
4. Edit in CS3 with Prospect HD.

OPTION C (because some are saying that MP4s are readable in CS3):
1. Shoot 1920x1080 MP4.
2. Drag to PC.
3. Edit in CS3 with or without Prospect HD.

I want Option B to work.

David, can you comment on whether I have understood you correctly in what I've written there? That Option B is on the horizon?

Or have I misunderstood something?

Early reports are that Vegas 8 directly imports 1920 x 1080 without the Sony Clip Software.

That's positive news I guess. Let's hope Prospect HD allows us to do the same with CS3...

EX1 footage and Cineform??
 

David, I downloaded the EX1 footage from this site
http://www.vecomvideo.com/pages/test_ex1.htm

then for the heck of it I placed the footage on a Premier timeline with
a Cineform preset....

to my suprise, the footage showed up and rendered... I output the movie
in AVI format and it played back somewhat... seemed to play for a few
frames then a few black frames, then a few more good frames and then some black frames... probably the GOP not being handled correctly???

anyway, it was a start.....

When can you comment of the Cineform/EX1 workflow.....

Sony has released the software/browser/converter to the public... and
now at least some footage is available for the public....

I played a little more this morning with the files.... I think the reason my
original tests were skipping was because I didn't choose a preset for the
footage that was shot at 25P...

So now, the MP4 footage goes into AE and PPCS3 fine with Cineform intermediate output....

that is, I can take the MP4 native files into the program and export back out to Cineform Avi ........


Testing with HDlink on the MXF files the conversion does not work ( nor does Cineform indicate that it should )

HDlink does not see MP4 files at this time, so I couldn't test that......

remember, this is only a test to see what would happen when presenting the files to a Cineform product...

And, the camera isn't even released yet.........

When we announce support it will be through HD Link. The conversions will be more convenient and much faster than rendering through PPro or AE.

MR Taylor, Thanks for the update.... as many folks are finding out that the intermediate solution that Sony has provided is lacking I think your product when released should provide a great value to the workflow....

So far from what I see, you guys just need to impliment conversion of MP4 files over to Cineform Intermediate AVI and your done...

I can't see any reason why anyone would want to convert to MFX unless they
want to use that format for their chosen editor... and that choice of editor should support AVI at the minimum...

So I'm sure your going to have a winner....

And does it look like it will go straight from MP4 to AVI or will we still have to take the middle step with the Sony software to go from MP4 to MXF and then use HDLink to go from MXF to AVI?

Hopefully we can skip the MXF conversion.