Everything I do isn't based on CineForm, so I've been functioning with XDcamEX native workflow and P2 native workflow in PPro CS4 without much problem. In fact, I would have to say that it seems more stable than CS3, even on 32 bit XP systems. I miss having the CineForm capabilities I had before, but I'm looking forward to getting them back in CS5 as I have some projects that would be best handled in a 10 bit intermediate workflow in the queue.

Every time I work on an FCP system, I find myself looking at the text screen that tells me I need to render whenever I have to insert a clip that isn't native to the sequence settings...and I feel OK about using Premiere Pro.

I'm not sure what issue you've had with Encore that would render it extinct (...not that I think it has no issues). My Apple-using friends need me to do any BluRay output, so that and the fact that I've been trying to help an FCP-using friend trouble shoot some ridiculous scaling issue with getting DVCProHD non-square 960x720 to encode to regular old MPEG2 for DVD...make me feel OK about using Encore.

Final Cut Studio is a fine set of tools, but they're not flawless.

Two years ago or so, the issue of Premiere was not so much function as it was stability. The memory leaks were horrendous and nerve-wracking. Credit where it's due... CS4 is more stable. Whether that is due to my running it on Win7/64-bit, or a little more RAM.... I don't know, but the fact of the matter is, I have yet to suffer a Premiere crash.

You are absolutely correct about the limitations of FCP... but back when I was at that particular fork in the road, the greener grass was in the form of something other than "Crash-O-Matic".

Are there better, not crazy expensive, alternatives to Encore/AME on a PC with the CS4/PHD combo?

Have a look at TMPGEnc Xpress (encoder) and DVD Author ... perhaps not as fully featured, but rock solid and high quality.

Ditto on TMPGEnc Xpress being good. Very flexible and fast. Don't know about DVD Author, but if their encoder software is proof of having good products, it should be very good, at least for DVD.

Tim, to offset my flamish post from yesterday, Encore CS4 is certainly more stable than any previous editions (I've had them all and some were absolutely horrid), but it is awkward, unintuitive, and weak in some crucial areas (poor, limited subtitling support, designed for simple projects, with weak import/export features).

To Adobe's credit, they did improve Encore's stability (which would definitely have killed it if they hadn't) , but have not really added many useful features, other than BR support and a few smaller things. It is quite "clunky", not user friendly, and in need of a bottom-up, modern redesign. If a person only does simple menu's, subtitles and basic designs, it's ok, but it fails as PRODUCTION software, in a multi-format, cross platform, multi-lingual world.

I guess the problem is, it's bundled in a program suite called "Production Premium", which would lead a person to believe they are getting something designed for, well .... surprise, surprise...PRODUCTION!...which it certainly isn't...and most certainly not very premium!

Having said all that, it works for the normal user, in non-production, non-complex workflow environments. Most probably it's due to their marketing decisions (so Adobe doesn't invade higher end solutions markets), but they should re-think that now that they seem to be wanting to take CS5 to "higher ground".

If Adobe does have that as their goal, they need to replace Encore with something better, bundle an updated version of Audition with CS5 (instead of their castrated Soundbooth), and make AME more powerful than TMPGEnc.

Then they might be entering "Production Premium" territory...

Okay thanks for the advice.. im surprised at TMPGEnc Xpress's price. Especially compared to something like Sorenson. I guess i'm still in the mindset of cheap price, cheap product.... is the workflow the same for that product?? Or is there an extra step?? Im assuming it works well with prospect

With XPress you essentially load a file (CFHD files from Prospect work fine), specify encode settings, and encode. It does have a batch tools option, but batching is not quite as central to the workflow as it is in Procoder or Sorenson.

Being a pragmatic and seat of the pants person (I sold my house to finance the movie I am working on at the moment). I have no loyalty or bias to any product. I use CS3 with CF to ingest material because it works in RT. I use AE CS4 because its better than CS3. I only used Cineform because it gave me a cost effective and good result in real time. If that is no longer the case then I simply move on...

And if real time were the only need met by Cineform, many of us would move on as well.

Ray, for many of us with multiple output targets for our master videos, a very high quality intermediate codec like CF, offers us many benefits, including: resizing and conversions to other video formats (NTSC<>PAL, BR, DVD, Flash, WMV, etc.), multi-platform format ingest, long-term archiving, non-destructive color corrections and metadata additions on outputting, etc.

If you can find something else that does this as well as CF, please share it with us!

Your needs may not be met with CF's codecs and software, but many thousands of others find it still serving quite nicely in today's fast moving world, and even looking quite strong for handling the 3D world coming our way.

That is not blind product loyalty, it's hard, cold, seat-of-the-pants, mega-user experience with a quite unique and highly useful product.

Loyalty is good if it's based on solid facts...and those are the facts.

Hey Marty, I used to be from GP, many years ago. I still miss that sweet, Oregon air. My younger brother went to OSU for a while, and I went to SOU (was SOC) for a while too.

Breathe some air for me...

All the great "Flame-Throwers" come from the Pac NW.

Breathing some air for you right now my friend. It's much better than holding our collective breath for CS5 isn't it?

Ha! It'll be well into the CS5 cycle before we buy into that new pain!

Some of that pure sea/evergreen/mountain air from you must have reached my brain...the bleeding edge is getting less attractive all the time...

I think everyone's needs are different and whether or not a specific workflow constitutes 'high end' is subjective of course.

Encore is certainly not complex...I've not had any issues with it, but I don't do sophisticated DVD authoring, so I yield to your points made.

As far as PPro is concerned...it's not like I use something else to win awards and use PPro to do home video. I've done some fairly sophisticated work on PPro.

However, I understand the frustration level. Input is given to Adobe constantly about addressing many of the features you mention. I'm an Audition fan myself...

Anyone who knows me knows that there are features I've been requesting for multiple revs that aren't showing up. The issue for me is that I haven't found anything that i like better as of yet...

Audition is a PC only package and is likely to disappear... sad as that is but it doesn't run particularly well on Vista or 7 anyway. I recently discovered Digital Performer which is an absolute must for 5.1.or above. It even manages to run full screen HD in RT on a separate monitor if you have a reasonable beast of a Mac. One problem solved. I can at least view my work properly again.

BUT Adobe is loosing hands down. Even the much vaunted Flash has plenty of bugs - try streaming audio and see what it does to memory allocation especially using AS3.
Nothing Adobe does ever gets better as they increase the release numbers. It just gets more clogged. I move from PC to Linux or Mac depending on the project but my money is definitely headed Macwards for the moment…

When no clear upgrade path showed up for Audition, that tolled it's death knell. For now, we're still using it in Win7, though as you stated, there are some issues.

Syntrillium made a good program...but good for 32 bit based 2003ware, not for "quickly-moving-to-64bit-2010ware. Since Adobe "buys-and-fries" many programs, I guess we can say goodbye to it pretty soon.

As to disappearing because of being PC based, the same thing could be said of Digital Performer...since it's MAC only. If they keep to that track, it could also go to the "Great Software Graveyard"... since we don't live in a OS specific workflow environment anymore. No matter how good a particular program is, it's very risky keeping things locked into single platforms.

Before jumping to anything else though, we'll be watching and waiting to see what CS5 has to offer. I certainly hope Soundbooth isn't their continuing solution. It doesn't cut it for more demanding productions, or finer control.

Come on Adobe, bring in something worthy of being called "Production Premium software"! Bundle something more professional!

Very true but Mac OS is basicly now a UNIX system which won't be going away anytime soon.

Hello,

We just bought Adobe Audition 3.0 for PC I think it's optimisex for 64bit I'll need to check.

Leo

Don't think so, sorry.

While I like it a lot, I'm very disappointed Adobe didn't update it, nor do they appear to have any plans to do so. Too bad, as it's a fine program. A 64bit version would have been a nice addition to CS5.

Maybe if enough people complain loudly enough, they'll relent from their lousy marketing decision and still give us an updated version?

Well...hmmm...all I can say is that you may not want to count Audition out in the long run just yet...

I sincerely hope not. It's been good for us for a long time...long before Adobe ever bought it.

Very happy to hear that there are so many Audition supporters. We, like Stephen, go back to the pre-Adobe Cool Edit days and love the program. There is an Audition window constantly open on my computer.

I agree.
I've tried to fiddle with Soundbooth several times, but why wade through a non intuitive learning curve when Audition does absolutely everything I need, whether audio for video, or multitrack music editing.

I realize this is an older thread but the subject is still valid. Especially with the time lapse.

Can anyone (probably with the first name of David) offer more current updates as what a CS5 user running on Mac can expect from Cineform V5?

I first used Aspect HD with Ppro 6.0/6.5 back in 2003/2004. As a matter of fact, I purchased Aspect HD from David Newman on the spot after he demoed the product at a HDV (JVC HD10) class in North Hollywood. At that time it was the only way to edit HDV barring the software supplied with the camera, and I won't go there. Well my memories of that experience are great. However, when my PC had a melt down I decided to switch to a Mac Pro machine. Also since I already had a license for Premiere Pro a cross platform upgrade seemed to be the way to go. I also just plain like working with Premiere and Encore. Hence, CS4 on a Mac. Well I need not rehash all that's already been said. I'm looking back at the DVD's I made using Ppro 6.5 and Aspect in that time period and am convinced that they have less noise, less artifacts and better color than anything I've done on CS4 without Cinefore. The loss of scene detection alone seemed like a big step backwards.

Well I'll cut to the chase. I'm going to upgrade to CS5. If for no other reason, to get scene detection on HDV capture back. I have a "boat" load of old HDV material left to archive and publish and scene detection is a great plus for me. Also my next camera is likely to be AVCHD based. I'm going to upgrade to NeoHD V5. If for no other reason, to get back the color and clarity that I felt was a factor of the Aspect code. Plus from all I've read, First Light sounds like a great addition. However I'm wonder how well NeoHD V5 will be integrated into CS5 on Mac? The Cineform home page does state that V5 for Mac will be offered a "couple of months" after V5 for PC's. The Cineform site seems to say I can "upgrade" to NeoHD V4 from Aspect HD even if I'm updating to a Mac platform. I'm not likely to even use V4 but I'm not sure I'll be able to "upgrade" to NeoHD V5 from Aspect HD when the Mac version of V5 is available?

Any input on all this would be greatly appreciated. I believe in your products and would like to get back to the work flow I had so many years ago.

Best to all

Hi Raymond, I'm sure we'll have an upgrade path from AHD to NeoHD without a new full-price purchase, but we just haven't published it yet. We expect excellent integration on Mac for CS5. Previously our CSx support on Mac was not very good because our Windows CSx implementation was not portable to Mac. This time, when we did the CS5 work on Windows we wrote it in a manner that was cross-platform compatible. So...expect all the good things you enjoyed about CineForm in the past to be available for CS5 on Mac within about two months after the Windows release.

In case you haven't seen it, following is a tech blog post that discusses the features for CS5, all of which should be available on Mac in the not-too-distant future: Cineform Tech Blog Blog Archive Announcing Neo Family Version 5.

Thanks David!

This is what I was hoping to hear. I had read the Announcement you linked up. But I hadn't focused on the "HD LINK (WIN) AAND REMASTER (MAC)" paragraph stating that even the updated HD Link utility is probably going to lag a bit after release of V5. So I don't feel so bad anymore. The bottom line is I should be up and running with CS5, NeoHDv5 on a Mac by mid summer. Good news indeed.

I've always appreciated that the two major principles within a company as progressive and growing as you are, can find the time to answer their customers as you do.

Thanks again, looking forward to the Cineform experience once again!