Cineform and CS5 Encode Issues
 

I've tried everything I can think of and I can't get CS5 to export without crashing. Here is my setup:

Windows 7 64Bit
Premiere CS5
NeoHD v5

1,884 HDV Clips converted to Cineform Codec

Intel i7 930 Processor
12GB RAM
GTX285 Video Card w/CUDA
2-Drive RAID for all the Cineform Video Clips

Originally, I started this project using Aspect v3 I think, so almost all clips were converted to Cineform codec fairly early in the Cinform product line. I was also using Premiere 2.0 and a much less "beefy" computer setup. Everything worked perfectly, till my project grew beyond the 4GB Ram limit of a 32Bit setup. From there, I began an exhaustive search for a relaible setup. I tried every newest version of Premiere, every newest version of Cineform and kept buying more powerful hardware, and it just would not work. For the longest time, Premiere would crash just from moving the carrot in the timeline too quickly. After getting the GTX285 w/CUDA, I can now scrub almost all over the timeline before it crashes. Finally, after CS5, and a ton of money in upgrades, I can begin properly editing my project again with minimal crashes. However, every time I export the project, CS5 crashes. All resources on the computer are consumed during the encode process, and everything encodes fine till about the 3% mark. At that point, PProHeadless (i think) crashes and all computer resources go back to zero use. Both Media Encoder and Premiere will continue operating as normal, but encoding has stopped.

CS5 works substantially better than any other version of Premiere I've used. No other projects I have are in the Cineform codec, nor are they close to the size of this project, however, I can edit and encode those without ever expriencing a single crash.

I've tried everything I can think of at this point. I'm current on all my drivers, and everything runs stable on my system. The computer itself, along with Windows, has not crashed yet. I've tried disabling/enabling CUDA, I've tried encoding to different drives, changing CS5 priority from "Performance" to "Memory", encoding using Premiere, encoding using Media Encoder, loading the project directly in to Media Encoder instead of exporting it from Premiere, and nothing seems to help.

I have noticed a possible pattern though. Some clips, although still Cineform, might be making CS5 unhappy. The %3 mark where encoding crashes, will also cause CS5 to crash if I scrub around in that area. Some times it does, some times it doesn't. It seems it does do it more often though. I've tried just rendering out the scene that's playing during the crash, and it crashes even on it's own. It does encode beyond the %3 mark though, so I think that eliminates a hardware limiting issue. It also eliminates the option of rendering out the film in sections.

Throughout this process, I have downloaded trial version of Cineform products in an attempt to find a solution, and each time I did, I would convert a few clips to the Cineform Codec using the current included HDLink program. The vast majority of the clips were converted using HDLink that came with Aspect v3, but the few that I converted with the different trial versions of Cineform, I probably changed certain settings such as Cineform file size in the encoding options. This means a few of the clips might have been done with the highest Cineform encoding settings with the HDLink that came with say ProspectHD (i have no idea which Cineform products specifically because I've tried them all multiple times). Is it possible that my problem is in missmatched Cineform clips? If so, is there a way to make them all uniform?

My only other option I can think of is to convert all clips to uncompressed. If I understand correctly, converting to uncompressed will eliminate the codec variable of my problem and should be easier on my system anyway. Assuming I set up the appropriate RAID to provide enough bandwidth, will my current setup still be able to edit the uncompressed clips in realtime? I don't want to spend around $1,200 on more hardware and still be missing something. Ultimately, I would love a solution that doesn't cost me anything, but the nature of the beast has proven that probably is not the case.

It's unclear from your post if you have a mixed bag of Cineform codecs ranging from Aspect through the current version, or if you have updated all your footage to the current codec.

If it is the latter, the first thing I would do is reconvert at least a portion of those old Cineform converted clips and see of that portion of your timeline will output.

I know there are earlier versions of the Cineform codec that create troubles within a Cineform output or project.

I would be willing to bet that your issue is with a clip or set of clips... most likely those older CFHD conversions. To verify that..... create a new project, import a handful of the old CFHD clips and see if you experience a crash.

Obviously one of the Cineform guys will be able to address this with a lot more knowledge than me, but you may be able to zero in on the problem be trying to isolate what clip(s) are derailing your output.

Then, the second part of the problem is the question of whether you have the ability to recapture any problem clips and use a current codec if need be.

Marty, thanks a million for your reply. All of my clips are a mixed bag of Cineform codecs. I do not have access to the original footage anymore, so I might be stuck. Is there a way to convert the older Cineform clips to the current codec without having the original M2T clips? I'm worried there isn't, which is why I was planning to convert all of the existing Cineform clips to uncompressed. That way, I still won't lose any information from the originals.

You are convincing me that Cineform is most likely the problem though and that definitely helps.

Thanks again for your input! It's giving me more confidence to move in the direction of uncompressed.

You may want try loading your old Aspect clips into Neo HDLink and reoutput. There's no downside to that.

And before you go the uncompressed route (which will require a render as well and the associated compatibility issue all over again), try using the Aspect clips in a fresh project. Make absolutely certain what is the source of your problem before doing a ton of work and using a lot of disc storage. It's possible that merely changing some project settings could help. Maybe even going back to an earlier version of Premiere.

The sheer size of the project used to be a big problem for Premiere.... not so much nowadays, but you never know. Try breaking your project into multiple segments or even individual projects.

The goal should be to nail down what is causing your issue before you try to solve it. Since your project is so large, you don't want to have to be doing things several times over.

Couldn't you just use HDLink and go to Convert tab, select your old CF files and convert them that way? I tried that with some old CF files made using Prospect HD v3 and used the latest version of Neo 4K. It seems to work fine with virtually no loss. About a +10 MB difference however which I imagine is extra metadata injected into the file.

--- looks like Marty beat me to your reply ---

Hey James... how's things up in Hillsboro?

An HDLink conversion would be the simplest, but if memory serves I believe there was one incarnation of Cineform codec that did NOT get along with subsequent versions. It may have only been a single build or two and seems like it was during the Aspect era.

That would be the only stumbling block, and if that's the case... then using a compatible version of Aspect and output to some usable format usable by Neo is the pathway out.

Too bad the original source footage can't be recaptured. That would be the ultimate solution.

But again..... Ryan needs to confirm the source of the problem is with Cineform. That is still unknown.

Thank you greatly to both of you gentlemen!

I will attempt to convert the existing files to the current Cineform codec and re-link the project to the new files. I'll keep the current video clips for caution.

I was unaware that HDLink was capable of converting existing Cineform files. I tried to investigate it once, but only found the option to convert others (such as M2T). It's frustrating that I would have overlooked that option, and I haven't revisited it since.

Marty and James, thank you for your time and guidance. I will begin working on this immediately and report back to you as soon as I have a conclusion.

It is unlikely to be a source file version issue, rather it could be a single bad frame. Render out in segments, set you segment length to be just short of your failure point, then render the next segment, and if it work continue until finished. If a particular segment will not render divide it up until you can the problem clip or frame. Export segments can be merged into one via a simple timeline, and export into a single clip.

David, thanks for the reply!

The issue does not appear to be frame specific, more region specific. Scrubbing in the timeline will induce the same crash when it's done in the same region, but not necessarily at the same frame. There are other areas in the timeline that react the same way. If the issue is in fact a bad frame, then I would assume I have multiple bad frames. It certainly is a possibility.

Only a small percentage of my clips are different versions of Cineform, while the vast majority were all done at the same time, using the same settings in Aspect. All clips have only been encoded once, thus none have been re-encoded to any relatively new version of Cineform.

I've experienced many encoding crashes in the past, but they were not nearly as consistent in nature and appeared to be specific to buggy version of Premiere, as well as having insufficient hardware. Regardless, I've still been able to encode the entire film multiple times without any issue. It is only now, with my current configuration, that I have a guaranteed, without fail, inability to encode.

You certainly have a better understanding of the Cineform codec than I do. Is it not possible, for the inconsistencies, as well as the age, of the Cineform codecs I'm using, to be an issue?

I believe it is an error to assume that an older encoding is to blame, and that re-encoding with fix it. While that is not impossible, it is not something I've seen before. If there is not one bad frame, then look for a new component not the old. As scrubbing can induce the error on this sequences, it is not encoding that is the problem. That leaves the new CS5 importer, maybe it not handling something correctly; fortunately you don't always need it. Inside Program Files/Adobe/ search CFHD_AVI_Importer.prm, there will be two of them, remove them, don't rename; you can always install to add them back again. Now Premiere using the VfW importer. Let us know if this helps.

Looks like i have a similar problem here ;-(

Encoding just hangs up at certain points, Premiere CPU & Disk IO goes to zero.
Deleting "CFHD_AVI_Importer.prm" did not help.

Just happens with Cineform Preset Timelines and Cineform Export.
CS5 presets with m2t clips and export to other codecs is working without any problems at all.

Looks like this happens more often with GPU-acceleration enabled, software-only works now and then.
I can reproduce the hangup every time with 3 layers of video with
- no effect at layer1
- gradient wipe at layer2
- additive dissolve at layer 3
- CPU acceleration enabled

I filled in a trouble ticket ...

You have options for export as well, use the "Windows AVI" format and in the video tab select "CineForm x64 Codec v6.2.x". Yuo shouldn't need to do that as the exporter is pretty solid, but it is something to try.

Does not work David, still hangs up.
Actually the problem seems not to be the codec/format of the export, since they are all not working.
It has something to do with the cineform clips and effects used in the timeline, since doing the same thing just with the m2t's is working.

Starting to not to sound like a CineForm bug, as you are now only using Adobe components. While it is still CineForm compressed samples, those are used everywhere (does MediaPlayer or VirtualDub crash on those files?) So it something either Premiere's VFW importer or what those filters are doing. Now I bet Adobe support will not be all that helpful, so the best way to get support will be through CineForm, so here what you need to do. Create a small single clip project using the Adobe effects that will cause the problem, determine the repeatability, and send the project and clip with an attached trouble ticket.

As with all support questions, make it repeatable and we can get to the bottom of the issue.

already did that ;-)

Good news!

David, thanks again for your time! Cineform is a great product and the support seems equally impressive. Unfortunately, like Gregor, deleting the Cineform importer had no affect.

However, I did re-encode all of the original clips using the current HDLink and it appears to have solved the problem. I am currently encoding now and progressing well beyond the 3% mark without any issues.

Marty and James, you have saved me and I am beyond grateful to you both! Thank you.

Gregor, I hope you find a solution. Hopefully, this information will be useful to you.

Some items of interest:
I've noticed my processor usage has dropped drastically. It now hovers around 50% usage or less during the encoding process, whereas before it would max out. RAM usage is consistant with before. Nothing else has been changed on my setup. I am using the same project file with the same settings re-linked to the new Cineform clips.

One last question, does re-encoding with the current HDLink follow the same compression as the original Cineform codec, or will I be losing a percentage of information because I am doing an additional compression?

I'm Having a Very Similar Problem
 

Ryan:

I am using Premiere CS5 and downloaded the trial of Cineform's Neo4k. I encoded some files in a test project and the clips played back fine from the timeline. So.. I went to one of our actual projects in progress. The clips on the timeline that were playing back poorly were Quicktimes encoded with the "Animation" codec. In the actual project, I did a "Replace Footage" command and replaced the QuickTimes in the bin with the CineForm encoded avi's. I did this for three clips that were layered on the timeline as an initial test. As I begin to play this segment of the timeline, the video plays for about 100 frames, then the CTI stops along with the video playback but the audio continues to play. Premiere freezes and I need to re-boot.

I have posted this issue in the Adobe Premiere CS5 forum tonight. I will see if there is a solution.

Adobe Forums: Video for Staging Event

Here is the most relevent post:

We downloaded the trial of Cineform Neo4k and installed it on one of our editing systems. I converted a 2560 x 540 file encoded in the "Animation" codec to the CineForm Neo4k codec. It played back much smoother from the timeline in a test sequence than the QuickTime file did. So... I installed the trial of Neo4k on our system that has the actual project we are working on and batch converted all of the QuickTime files to the Cineform Neo4k codec in an avi wrapper.
I found 3 layers of QuickTimes on the timeline of the actual project and did a "Reveal in Project", then replaced the 3 QT clips in the "Bin" using the "Replace Footage" command.
Now when the CTI hits the 3 Cineform Neo4k clips on the timeline, the CTI stops, the video freezes, the audio continues to play and Premiere crashes.
Obviously it's the Cineform clips. I'm wondering if there were some files originally associated with the original QuickTimes on the timeline that need to get deleted because Premiere is associating those files with the new Cineform files?
A guy in another forum appears to be having the identical problem... CS5, footage replaced with Cineform encoded files on the timeline using the "Replace Footage" command.
My thinking is, either it's a bug CineForm needs to deal with, or I need to delete some files that were formerly associated with the original QuickTimes that were originally on the timeline.


Any thoughts?

We have found this playback freeze and are working on the best solution now (we have one that works, working on an cleaner solution for this next release -- 5.0.3 is waiting for it.)

This works. Replace
C:\Program Files\Adobe\Adobe Premiere Pro CS5\Plug-ins\Common\CineForm\CFHD_AVI_Importer.prm
and
C:\Program Files\Adobe\Common\Plug-ins\CS5\MediaCore\CineForm\CFHD_AVI_Importer.prm

with the contents of:
http://www.cineform.com/downloads/CF...porterV503.zip

I'm experiencing what could be a similar issue with a new CS5 project referencing some older cineform files. I'm still trying to isolate exactly what it causing the problem by trial and error.

I'd like to make the comment that it's very difficult to find current up to date details with options and settings. The PDF with v5 is from v3 for example and the cineform sites aren't the easiest.

For example there are playback settings in CS5 for cineform that i can't find documented anywhere (various GL options) I have no idea what would be best for my system.

My problem (so far) is that i have a sequence of mixed footage in CS5 (XDCAM, H264 and old cineform files). The sequence setting is set XDCAM (prior to buying Neo v5) and i was using neo scene to read the old files. This works fine.

I decided to get back on board with cineform and upgraded to Neo v5. Now in the same set up as above it's fine.

But if i create a new sequence in the project and use a cineform preset and copy and paste the timeline all hell breaks loose and PPro just quits randomly. I am trying to work out exactly at what point it fails but it takes time as i have to restart between crashes as PPro won't open a second time. Prior to finding this i'd also tried replacing all my mixed footage with cineform versions which produced crashes too.

I may try to reconvert old prospect files into new versions via HDLink.

if i remove Neo then all is well again. If i don't use cineform as the sequence setting then it *seems* okay, but obviously i need to change it.

It's proving tough to narrow down the problem, it would be fantastic if there were some error logs generated! Or whether there could be a debugging switch to log operations in general. I remember going through all of this with Prospect v3 and narrowing down problems files is such a time waster.

In reference to the original post. I have big issues with prospect v3 which turned out to be audio issues within the files. I had to rewrap the audio with VirtuDub to get things working again. (I'd originally created the problem by editing the audio separately)

cheers
paul

Still freezing on timeline
 

Dave,

I've upgraded as suggested above and also installed NeoScene 5.0.3.259 codec version 6.2.7.462 but the CineForm codecs are still freezing on the timeline when there is grading or effects applied to it. A simple test i'm able to reproduce it is doing a cross fade between two clips by setting the opacity levels. It also happens when multiple clips are color graded with a gradient type effect or vignette using just the CS5 grading effects or with Magic Bullet Looks 1.4.

Is anyone else having this problem? If there are no effects or grading everything plays back fine. I'm only having the issue with CineForm codecs and am able to grade any other codec without a problem,

Patrick,

Yes, i'm having the very same problem as i posted on another thread. I've managed to get two different machines/installations to fail in the same way. It's a very simple thing to test and i'd like to get feedback from others because i have to assume it's such a fundamental issue that most people cannot be seeing it!

Anytime I use the cineform RT engine (either via a preset or create your own) whenever there is some rendering to be done the rendered files do not play within CS5. If you find those files outside and play, they run normally.

if you switch to using a different preset, no cineform RT engine then they will render normally.

cheers
paul

Finally just swapped my graphics card (those GTX 285 are rather large, had to rearrange the entire PC)

I can report that so far it seems like the refusing to play and stuttering has stopped! I will spend the day working tomorrow and try out some of the other problems i had.

But this is an area worth looking at. I previously had a FireGL v5600 card now a GTX 285. All the standard stuff worked okay on the FireGL but cineform encoding and playback within premiere produced frozen frames and stuttering. Those same files outside of premiere played find in the movie player.

Now i just need to see if this has solved a crash with some old cineform files, although that could be a different problem...

But good news so far...

paul

Same Issue
 

I am experiencing this exact same issue. Disk and CPU usage goes to zero and my export just hangs. I have tried it via Export and via Media Encoder. I am using 5d and xh-a1 footage that was encoded via cineform neo 4k. Are you saying I should disable GPU acceleration?

Brett,

I've not got to the bottom of it. I did find swapping from a FireGL to GTX285 i saw less stuttering but every now and again i see a freeze.

Are you running on a sequence set to cineform RT?

If you preview the entire sequence (render it) does it work okay?

If not then try creating a normal sequence (say XDCAM 1080p) and copy and paste your edits onto that and try rendering/exporting from there.

I'm in a situation where i cannot use a cineform preset or create my own one without PPro crashing out. yet the same edits on a normal sequence seem okay. It's pretty weird.

I'm talking to support but hoping on here to find similarities with other people which might help narrow down the issue.

cheers
paul

I have the 285 GTX 2G Ram installed. I have no issues playing, my issue is with exporting. It crashes on the same spot every time (about 4 seconds into the export). I think the issue for me is going to be when I use Magic Bullet with Cineform encoded material. Still need to do more testing.

In the past when i've had exporting issues it is sometimes the video files *ahead* of the point that it crashes. It sounds like there's a corrupt file in there. If you start removing files and effects can you get to a point where it starts rendering?

If it's repeatable then it should be possible to narrow it down. Good luck!

Oh and i've used magic bullet and cineform together a lot in the past with no problems. Unless there's something new in CS5 causing a new problem.

Yeah, it was working fine in CS4. This is my first export using all three (CS5, Neo & MB Looks) on my new i7 desktop. If anyone else is having this issue, please post. I will follow up with results from testing later today.

Well i've just had MBL hang the timeline (i think, it's tough to say when PPro just stops responding the exact cause). Have you had anything like that?

I've avoided using MBL whilst trying to sort out some of the cineform issues i've seen (to reduce the possibilities) but perhaps MBL is another link in the chain?

Crossfades
 

Via process of elimination, I have come to the conlusion that crossfades are causing my exports to fail but I can't figure out why?

And if you render them on the timeline they work okay? What is your sequence setting for this timeline? If it's a cineform preset then i wonder if it's the same cineform that is used to render? If it's not a cineform preset then your preview files are being rendered to another codec.

How about other effects, would they fail too?

Are you exporting in cineform? If so, then try a different format, that would isolate whether it's an encoding issue or decoding of the files?

cheers
paul

Has your issue been resolved? If so, what did you do?

Brett, have you tried using keyframes with opacity settings instead of the Cineform dissolve?

In the past with earlier CS versions, it's been a workaround for us (with similar problems). So much so, I still rarely use anything else for cross dissolves. Certainly not faster, but more stable. If it does crash when rendering with just keyframes on opacity, something certainly is very wrong.

Also in some earlier versions with 32bit OS's, memory conflicts between PP and Cineform sometimes was the culprit in renders. How's your's? (computer's...I mean). Plenty of RAM free?

i7 960, 12 gb ram, 285gtx 2gb, win 7 64bit. Certainly not going to do fades via keyframes on fifty clips. I really want a feasible solution. I am going to tray capturing m2t files from the xh-a1 and use native 5d files. I have a feeling that will work.

Like I said, "workaround".

If you're time critical with those 50 clips, and you don't find your "solution", it could be worth a try.

Workarounds are just that: skin-savers

I had similar problems - But with CS4 - export usually crashed around xx% everytime.
What i've came up with was 3 solutions:
1. exporting to tape - usually worked (reimport and then compress to final)
2. Cutting out few seconds around that export failure point - most of the time worked.
3. ReCapturing the entire Tape in cause. This worked every time.

I know is way of a workaround - but it works and saves time really!

I had similar issues with CS4. I am so tired of this. Feeling very frustrated.

Brett,

I feel your pain. As a workaround you could reencode all your source in one go via media encoder and relink it to your existing project. That might take some time to reencode but you could do that over night and not waste your time?

The fact that the cross dissolves works without cineform files means there's something up somewhere.

When i had exporting problems with cineform in CS3 it was due to some corrupt files and a memory issue within cineform. So not really a cineform problem.

cheers
paul

Well I was able to export as a Cineform MOV and AVI but no other export setting works for me. It crashes regardless if Magic Bullet is on the timeline. Once I am home I will see if I can re-encode (which I hate) as blu-ray h.264 or mpeg.

cineform update
 

CineForm released a new update today ... so far it looks like its fixed my problem. Crossfades are working but i've yet to crossfades + MBL.

Cineform Tech Blog Blog Archive Neo Scene Windows Update Log

Yes, 5.0.4 seems a lot better. I was MBLing a lot yesterday with it and so far no crashes although i also updated my nvidia drivers to the new ones which may have helped too.

I can still get my test case to crash though with a dissolve, not crash as such but freeze playback and then become very unresponsive on the timeline forcing a restart.

Certainly it's a big step in the right direction...

cheers
paul