Problems with Movement in Video
 

I have noticed that whenever the camera moves rather quickly or any fast motion, my Cineform intermediates fall apart. Example: a shot looking across a bay with Sea Gulls flying across the image. There is a doubled image of each seagull as they fly by. If the camera moves (pans) or a large moving image crosses nearby I see "interlaced lines" across the moving part of the image only.There is no problem with the HC-1 hooked up directly to a HD monitor. Image is sharp, even with lots of motion.

I use the Aspect HDV settings for my capture in PPro and HDlink in Vegas - both have these problems. I did notice with HDLINK that I kept the original CFHD Mpeg files. When I play these they have the same problem-but again the Tape played thru caamcorder and HD output does NOT have any issues. My preference, capture, and project setting are all 1080x1440 29.97fps interlaced - upper field first. DVD output is 720x480, 29.97fps interlaced-lowere field first. I've played with all of these to no avail.

Today I tried capturing and making a quick DVD with the same footage in Pinnacle Studio 10.5. The image is PERFECT, no doubled image of the seagulls, no "interlaced like lines" across moving objects. So clearly, my camera, firewire cable, video card, memory, etc. are all setup and capable.

It is disconcerting that Pinn Studio - a less then $100 program seems to give superior results. What could be the problem? Is my install somehow corupted? Should I uninstall Cineform and reinstall?

The problem is not CineForm compression as we don't compress motion like you suggest. The fact that the MPEG files what we converted from has the same issue, you are most likely look at a computer presentation artifact. Interlaced material can look less than idea on a progressive computer display. Consumer tools like Studio, my aim to give good PC presentation, but that will not get you the best HD results -- Studio is likely showing only one field (use Bob display) to turn interlaced into progressive. If you primary concern is PC presentation, either shoot in a progressive mode like CF30 or deinterlace when rendering your output.

In response to above, my clip properties are:
Type: AVI
File Size 432.4mb
Image Size 1440x1080
Pixel Depth 24
Frame Rate 29.97
Average Data Rate 11.7 MB/second
Piexel Aspect Ratio 1.333

CineForm Visually Perfect File Details
Contains 1 Video Track(s) and 1 Audio Track(s)
Video Track 1
Frame Rate 29.97
Frame Size 1440x1080
Uncompressed Video Format is 8-bit YUV422

Project Settings
General- Editing Mode Cineform HD RT
Time Base 29.97
Frame Size 1440 Horiz 1080 vertical
Pixel Aspect Ratio HD Anamorphic 1080 (1.333)
Fields Upper Field first
Playback Settings - the 3 middle Cineform playback settings are checked

Capture - CineForm HDV capture - capture miodule installed

Video Rendering - Compressor - CineForm HD Codec, Millions+ colors


I left out audio coding, and other items that were not image related. Does anyone see anything wrong in these settings? I am using a Sony HC-1 - camcorder at standard settings, no cineframe, no change from standard shutter speed etc.

Attached are 3 frames with a Single Seagull flying across the bottom of the image.
Does anybody have any idea what's causing this? How to fix? I have been racking my brains on this for quite awhile. I didn't include the Pinnacle Studio images, but there is a perfectly sharp Single Seagull in the same frames captured in Pinn Studio. Thanks - PK

Thanks David. Until a BlueRay/HDDVD solution becomes reasonable, my primary goal is DVD output at this time. These problems are present on my computer monitor while editing, on the resulting DVD played on an old interlaced CRT TV, and the DVD played thru a progressive DVD player w component output to a Sony G-90 front Projection system. Just for the heck of it, I tried the Pinn Studio today-1st time I'd tried it since version 9 (non-HDV version). Pinn Studio offers you the choice of outputing DVD as progressive (I was surprised). I had been using interlaced with Vegas and PPro, so I left it as interlaced-to keep the playing field level. I love commercial progressive DVD's; However, I tried converting SD DV to progressive and found the results were less then desireable if there is any camera movement or rapid motion. I definitely want/need features that Pinn Studio does not have-it ws just an experiment :) Thanks for you time, and have a good night. Sincerely - PK

Somehow you are mixing the fields on export. This is not normal behavior. Try turning off "de-interlace while scrubbing". Another customer reported problems on export using that option (although is doesn't do it on my home version there could be a bug there.)

Thanks for the idea, but that did not help either, only added interlaced scan lines to the preview while scrubbing-not while viewing playback in the PPro monitor window. I can live witht the doubled images and so forth in editing, but I would prefer not to have them in the final output :) I agree it seems to be a field order problem, but how can they be getting mixxed up? I never had a field order problem with regular DV. I listed all of my project/clip settings earlier in this thread - do you see anything wrong with them?

What are the DVD options I should use? I've used the NTSC widescreen DVD template in PPro, and customized by uping the bit rate, etc. I notice it defaults to lowere field first. HDV is upper field first - should I switch to upper field first for DVD output ?

When I output to DVD the results are inferior (more jaggies) with PPro 1.5.1 versus Vegas+DVD Architect. The Adobe programs don't seem to offer as much customization as the Sony programs. However, I'm just using the export function of PPro- cause its faster for experimentation. Is the Quality any different with Encore?

Do most people convert to 24P with Cineform before editing? Or just go with interlaced, or de-interlace with DV fim maker, majic bullet, etc.?

Thanks David, have a good weekend

"Video Rendering - Compressor - CineForm HD Codec, Millions+ colors"

Should say "CineForm HD Export" as the file type, not use the "Microsoft AVI" option. You may be use the old Premiere licensed components.

Export you 1080i movie using "CineForm HD Export" set you DVD size and pixel aspect, and low field first. Once you have you SD CineForm master use that in Encore to create your DVD.

David, up until now, I have just been trying to use the "Export to DVD" function of PPro 1.5.1. without using Encore. I was using the "NTSC DV 16x9" template.

When I goto "Export Movie," the General section default is - File Type: "CineForm HD Export." Then I click Video it lists Compressor: "CineForm HD Codec," Color Depth: "Millions+ of Colors" Frame Size: "1440h x 1080v," Frame Rate: "29.97," Pixel Aspect Ratio: "HD Anamorphic 1080 (1.333)." I believe this is what you said they should be.

I have now made the AVI per above, and it plays perfectly in Media player - sharp, clean, and no double images.

Question: When and how do I set it up to DVD resolution 720x480? (Encore will not import as an asset. It states resolution must be 720x480)

Thank you again for all the time and effort you so generously provide.

Within Export movie simply set the new size and field order to 720x480 low-field first. The resulting AVI will import into Encore DVD.

Thank you again David - I guess that seems obvious, but I didn't want to screw things up without being sure. Yesterday, I imported the full HDV res avi into Sony DVD Architect with no problems, and it did the down res on its own. It took 58 minutes to make 6 min. clip into a disk - that would equate to 2+1/2 days for an hour video (on a AMD 4200 X2 w 2 gig ram system). The disk looks very good overall-FAR better then anything else so far. However, those flying seagulls, still are double imaged when watching the video, but if you hit pause, there is no double image. I thought maybe this was just part of the HC-1 rolling shutter issue, but playing the tape directly to HD component input, there is not a double image appearance of the seagul in either playback or pause.

Were getting close, its greatly improved, but it still seems there must be some sort of field order error. I don't know, but since HDV is all upper field, and DVD is lower field, I would think this would cause this problem. Is there a work around, or is this "just the way it is"? Do I need a de-interlacer step somewhere in the work flow?
Thanks Again-PK
(really can't thank you enough for all your time and help)

Paul,

If you not seeing a double when paused, it mean the fields are correctly encoded as separate time intervals. If the motion looks smooth then the fields are in the correct order. Sounds like the disk is fine. To test use a regular DVD to a CRT TV -- HD LCD/Plasma display can do odd things to present an interlaced image as progressive.

Thanks David for the quick reply.
I did preview the disk on a Sony G-90 -3 CRT front projection system. The DVD player was a Sony S9000ES. I've viewed many of my reguar DV projects edited and put on DVD with this system. Tennis, Water, Snow skiing, etc. with lots of motion and we never had a double image effect. I will try previewing on an old 32" tv tonight. Like I said, overall it looked very good, sharp, clean, good color, contrast, etc. My only concern is with fast motion/action.
Any ideas, or suggestions would be most appreciated. Have a Great Day and Thanks - PK

Paul,

For a double image we you either must have the field blended (which you said they are not -- "if you hit pause, there is no double image") or forward/reverse motion to indicate the fields are in the wrong order. If you have neither of these, the double is an artifact of the display device.

Sorry to be a pain, but I do not have either of those. Experimenting I noticed that if I'm in X2 or X4 speed, I see not 2 but 3-4 sets of wings. on a single Seagull!! It is also noticeable on the outlines of other moving things; ie. The grill on a car moving toward the camera, a white t-shirt as a person walks by-not totaly double, just a bright ghost on the edge. When you puase the play of the video it disapears. Curiously, I have shots where I moved the camera a lot (I was trying to make a quick adjustment and didn't bother stopping filming), but that did not seem to cause a problem, only when the subject was moving either horizontally across, or vertically across the frame. Viewing, pausing, etc the direct HDV output show no problems-just super clear footage. Also, the pinnacle studio encoded disk has no problems with this. Studio's DVD is not field dropped cause the resolution is too comparable. The Pinnacle output does seem to have more "mosquito noise."

There is something you are doing wrong, but your description is not leading to any conclusions. You can be mixing frame rate with blending, you could be mixing format, somehow, yet the "When you puase the play of the video it disapears" say that the video is fine. Video is nothing more that a series of frames, so you must be messing with the candence, which may give the illusion of a double image. You going to have to send us an example clip. Use "yousendit.com" and email yourself. Copy that link and email me it through DVInfo.net (click on my username.)

Hi Again David. Sorry to be such a pain, but which clip(s) do you need? The original CF avi from the capture, the Export CF avi that goes to Encore, or the transcoded Encore Mpeg ? All 3, or some particular combination?

In looking back; your post of Aug19 3:50pm - "export 1080i using CineForm HD export - set DVD size+pixel." I missed the last part and exported as 1080i. That is the one that on Aug20-12:39pm I wrote "I've made per above and it plays perfect in WinMediaPlayer." Encore would not take it cause the size was 1080x1440, but DVD Architect did-took a long time but that DVD looked very good-except for the double image during playback-not during pause.

As I re-read your instructions and subsequent posts, it seems you were telling me to do exactly what the Cineform Web FAQ says for making a DVD. The step I missed on Aug 19-20 was the "set DVD size,pixel,etc." I tried that last night (I tried that several months ago) and the result (again) was TERRIBLE interlacing problems.

Question: HDV is upper field. DV and DVD are lower field first (probably why I never had these problems with DV). So we are taking video that was scanned line 1 then line 2, etc. and we are outputing that scan line 2 then line 1. Doen't this naturally lead to mixed fields? I would think the only way to switch from upper to lower field would be to deinterlace the original HDV upper field video, or basically make it progressive, and then interlace with lower field first. I don't see anywhere in this workflow where we are doing this?

I really feel bad about taking up so much of your time. I think if you would published Step by Step detailled instructions- even with screen shots of each setting, and do this for the different HD cameras, etc., that you possibly you would save a lot of time for all of us. As I said earlier, I by no means want/could use Pinnacle Studio, but it was sure neat that on the 1st try, the DVD came out looking good. Please let me know whic clip(s) you need.

As always, Thanks again David for all your hard work. PK

All three files would be good.

Thanks David
 

Thanks, currently its about 6 minutes of mixed footage. I will cut it down over the weekend to 2min or so and then send it to you. Have a Good Weekend - PK

Could I ask how this was resolved?

I'm having a very similar problem but when I pause I DO see the double image on movement. Apparently it's an interlace/de-interlace problem but I haven't figured it out yet. Just thought maybe the solution to your problem might lead me in the right direction.

Still playing with check boxes.

XH-A1 -> HDVsplit -> HDLink -> PP2 -> (Also tried VirtualDub in here) -> TMPGenc 4.0 express -> Encore 2

Hi Brad,
I've given up on using Premiere cause no matter what I tried, motion just looked awful. I tired every combination upper/lower field first, converting it to progress , etc, and I just couldn't get it to look right. I have PPro 1.5, so maybe 2.0 is okay, but I had better luck with Vegsa. In Vegas, if I remeber correctly the problem was in my set up telling Vegas wheather it should automatically de-interlace or not. It still did not fix the seagull having multiple sets of wings when he flies by, but everything else is okay. I have tried repeatedly, and some times that Seagull has 2 sets of wings, sometimes 3 sets. Sometimes I can get it so that when you pause he only has 1 set, but when you play - he has 2 sets of wings.Other clips with seagulls do not have this problem, and when you watch the oringinal HDV tape this does not happen. When I sent these clips to the cineform folks - they said they were normal. They had me run a field order test with AE - and yes that checks out - but that seagull really really really - did not multiple sets of wings. I'm patiently waiting for Blue Ray media to become more realistic priced.($20+ for a recordable disk at BBY ??). Sorry that I'm not helping you much. Good luck, and if you find the answer to this problem, please let me know too. Thanks - PK

Paul,

It wouldn't be too bad if there were only a lot of switches, but I'm finding some of the programs make assumptions, - sometimes good sometimes bad.

I got Tmpgenc 4 and since it had a lancosz3 resizer tool I figured I could bypass Virtualdub, - wrong.

I've got things working OK now by outputing PP2 to an AspectHD avi, feeding that to virtualdub to resize, feeding that output to Tmpgenc, and feeding that to Encore2.

It seems logical that I should be able to simplify this workflow if I can find the right switches.

It doesn't seem to matter what field order you feed to Encore, the dvds play fine. If it's backward the preview is awful though.

It seems that somewhere, somehow, when I wasn't using Vdub, the frames got superimposed (one of the de-interlacing methods I suppose). Anyway, pause the dvd and you see both images. Why resizing in Vdub fixed that I have now idea. I think I'm missing something. It could be a progressive thing somewhere, but I haven't caught it.

Success at Last
 

Hi Brad, you may have read this elswhere by now. Even though my camera is 1080i HDV, it seems the reccomended way to go is; 1. Capture with Cineform using capture as progressive . 2. Edit normally 3. Output to DVD as progressive. I have tried this and the results have been very good with both Premiere and Vegas. I copied the following from a post on this forum and followed these steps. I did not keep the original posters name, so My hat is of to him with a heartfelt "Thanks" to whoever you are.

* Record video in HDV1080i (HDR-HC7)
* Capture to Vegas as 1080i with the following adjustments to the properties: Field order = None (progressive), Full res rendering = Best.

* After edit, render as: MainConcept MPEG-2 with the following custom settings: Video rendering = best, In video tab: Output type = DVD, Width = 720, Height = 480, Field order = Progressive only, Video quality max (31), Constant bit rate = 9,800,000. (don't render audio)

* After I render the video, I do the audio: Render as: Sony Perfect Clarity Audio with the default template.
* I create the DVD in Sony DVD Architect Studio 4.0

Paul,

Glad you got the kinks out.

I seem to have gotten things working for myself too, - sort of.

I recently shot some HDV that needed color correcting and decided to make life easier and buy Aspect HD. Unfortunately, the combination of the current releases of HD and PP2 crash my machine constantly. Gonna try the PP3 Beta and the May upgrade of Aspect. Fingers crossed.

Pre-Cineform workflow:

Canon XH-A1 -> HDVSplit -> PP2 -> DebugMode Frameserver -> Tmpgenc Express -> Encore2

If I can get my machine working with Cineform I'll have to decide whether it's better to frameserve or create an AVI out of PP2 to feed to Tmpgenc. Sure takes less space to frameserve. Otherwise I guess I've blown $500 and it's back to editing .m2t.

I do still see the occasional minor "judder" but I'm thinking that has to do with HDV compression.

An interesting side note: I've been running my footage through MPEGStreamclip before loading into PP2 to straighten out time code problems that sometimes occur when capturing to my laptop with HDVSplit. Works great and very quick.

Brad

Wow Brad, How do you like your Canon XH-A1? Looks like a sweet unit. What other HDV camcorders have you used? Does the A-1 image blow them away, or is it just a subtle improvement? Are you shooting in 60i or 24f mode, and which works better for editing? I guess you loose some resolution with 24f, but is it noticeable? I have a Sony HC-1, and its been a great camera -nice small size to travel with and it is solidly built. However, low light, and playing with an A-1 at the dealer last week, have me tempted to upgrade.

Your workflow looks a lot more complex then mine. I'm not familiar with frameserve or what it does. Does your workflow pretty much eliminate artifacts, other then judder? DVD output IS disappointing compared to watching tape directly from camcorder to HDTV where artifactting and motion problems are negligible (no judder).

I have PPro 1.5, and I don't have any problems with Aspect at all, guess I'm glad I didn't upgrade to 2.0 :), but I think my hand is going to be forced here pretty soon with the new CS3 version coming. Anyways, thanks for the info, and good luck - PK

I like the A1 a lot. It's not an "out-of-the-box" machine though.

I shoot 60i and haven't noticed many artifacts. Really bright red objects are a bit of a problem. Looks like the color almost "floats" over the objects. I've been told that's the nature of HDV compression.

Downloaded the CS3 Beta and Cineform isn't crashing now. That's a relief.