Thanks for the info, Barlow.

Anyone knows if the HPX HD-SDI signal is after or before compression?

Mike, congratulations on your product. It will help on the creation of more quality products from us small independents...

I'm just imagining putting an XDCAM EX HD-SDI output trough your Recorder, at 160mbps, recording the full 1920x1080 signal... Compared to the in camera 35 mbs 4:2:0 mpeg2 long GOP, this would make in theory for some absolutely incredible footage, and attainable on the field!

P+S is the correct. Sorry too much jet lag.

Mike Schell

Thanks! The 160Mbps 4:2:2 1920x1080 I-Frame only should not only look great, but should be much easier to edit, due to the absence of Long-GOPs. However, I will be curious to see the 100Mbps Long-GOP version of this footage, as it should look fantastic. We plan to post comparions of the different bit-rates / Long-GOP / I-Frame captures on our website.

Mike Schell

Speaking of bit rates...is there any chance, given that the XDR can remove pulldown from the H1's 24F 29.97 1080i HD-SDI output, the 50 mbs mode could be applied to the 24 progressive frames *only*, just like Canon's 24F HDV mode works? This would add 20% more bandwidth per frame and I think might be the actual sweet spot for most shooters.

If the 50 mbs mode looks fine and is truly motion artifact resistant (given the higher bit rate plus VBR and progressive encoding), this would probably be the mode I would use most. If the quality is nearly indistinguishable from the 160 mbs mode, that'd be good enough for me. 50 mbs to 16 GB CF cards would mean about 32 minutes of footage per card, (as opposed to just over 10 min. in 160 mbs) if I'm not mistaken. That would mean signifigantly less card swapping throughout a day's shoot.

Audio question--Is it possible to extract the H1's audio via firewire, even if it's post-compression? I think this might be a better solution than trying to accomodate the analog RCA ports on the camera.

Hi David-
We expect users will mount the Flash XDR on the back of the battery, using the V-Lock. You will be able to mount the "male" plate on the back of our box. Power will go to the camera and our box simultaneously. We'll work out the power cables to make this hassle fee. (Note Fash XDR only draws 8Watts according to preliminary estimates).

The Extreme III Compact Flash card should work fine for data-rates up to 100 Mbps. You will need the Extreme IV for the 160Mbps rate. But, yes you could save some cost if you stay at the lower data-rates.

Mike Schell

Yes, the 50Mbps rate can be applied to the 24p mode. Yes, I do think the 50Mbps 4:2:2 rate will look excellent. You will be able to select Long-GOP or I-Frame only. Long-GOP will likely look better, but I-Frame would be easier to edit.

My calculations show 42 minutes per 16Gbyte card at the 50Mbps rate.

Mike Schell

AFAIK, at the moment, the largest high performance CF card (eg Extreme IV) capable of recording 160Mbs is 8GB, not 16, so at that data rate you are currently restricted to about 5 minutes/card.

Which makes the 100Mbs long-GOP option doubly intriguing. Should be extremely high quality, and being 100Mbs, it allows the use of Extreme III, so cheaper anyway, as well as being available now in 16GB sizes. That means 16 minutes per card now, with 32GB cards forecast soon.

Mike - I think my confusion is that I'm thinking of PAG batteries, with V-lock connector one side, but plain on the other. What you say makes sense if I assume such as IDX with male connector one side, female the other.

Yes, Barlow makes an interesting point here. Extracting audio from the firewire port is an interesting paossibility, although it would be post compression.

Your thoughts Mike?

David-
I agree, all things considered, the 100Mbps long-GOP may be the overall best choice. Certainly the image quality will be outstanding - 4X the bit-rate of HDV with 4:2:2 color space and full-raster (1920x1080). Using the 16G CF will minimize card swaps and save some cost.

FYI, we are working with Anton Bauer, IDX and PAG on various battery combinations. IDX looks the simplest, but I think we can work out suitable mounts for the the other batteries.

Mike Schell

Well, we have actually considered this same approach. It offers a lot of advantages. We will discuss the design with Canon engineers, as we need to align the compressed audio out the 1394 port with the HD-SDI signal. We'll also need to decompress the audio before writing to CF (at least for the QT file format).

Fundamentally, I think this approach will work.

Mike

Dear Mike,

Before developing a method to extract off the audio via the firewire port, I would want to know the signal path of both options.

I assume that the audio line outputs from a camera, such as an XL H1, would be full analog signals, If so, then you could capture the sound in whatever format you liked, such as 16/48k, 24/48k, or any other flavor.

If the above is true, then the audio would be much better than compressed audio from firewire. Excellent audio would be a great feature, to match the overall purpose of your unit, which is to improve upon the standards available in camera (which may be HDV or some other standard).

I suspect they're aware of this caveat, but I would agree that it's significant.

I'm going to guess (and Mike can certainly correct me if I'm wrong) the rub is that re-clocking analog audio to the HDSDI video signal, while the HDSDI signal is being digitally transcoded and the analog audio is going through a quantization step would be trickier than bringing in another digital signal.

The fact that Canon didn't include embedded audio on the XLH1 is really unfortunate. They have included it now on the smaller HDSDI-capable HDV camera, but I suspect their original intention was to streamline monitoring with that jack and little else at the time...

Just so we are clear the XDR will record what datarates to compact flash in what formats?

Also what gave you folks the idea to make this product. Keep up the good work.

Flash XDR can record (and playback) using the 422P@HL Profile which is 4:2:2 MPEG2 at full raster (1920 x 1080, 1280x720) at the following max data-rates:

100 Mbps in Long-GOP
160 Mbps in I-Frame Only

You can use the lower cost SanDisk Extreme III cards (133X) for 100Mbps (and lower), but will need the Extreme IV Compact Flash (266X speed) for the 160Mbps rate. (Note CF speeds are based on multiples of 150K bytes/sec, the original CD playback rate. So, 133X = 20 MBps or 160 Mbps).

Regarding our idea for this product, after the experience of our HDMI to HD-SDI converter (nanoConnect) we realized that the quality of the HD-SDI output from most cameras was far superior to the recording mechanism, even for HDCAM. Also, we saw a trend that file-based workflow, would replace tape-based ingest. So that gave us the motivation to build an external add-on box which would increase the video quality and enable fast transfer of video footage to the NLE.

Compact Flash speeds and capacities have increased dramtically and offer relatively low costs, high reliability and low-power. So, we realized that by using CF memory and the high-quality Sony MPEG2 CODEC we could build a small portable HD recorder that could mount on the back of any HD-SDI based camera.

In a nutshell, that's how we decided to build Flash XDR. (No, we didn't come up with the idea after visiting a coffee shop in Amsterdam).

Mike Schell

Interesting take. I think you're also correct about Canon's original intentions with the H1's HD-SDI output. As inconvenient as it is to not have embedded audio and timecode like the G1 or JVC 250, IMO it's still worth jumping through a few extra hoops with regards to audio in order to be able to exploit the uncompressed video output.

HDV audio: I've never had a problem with it. It of course depends so much more on the quality of the pre-amps, converters etc, onboard the camera than the fact that it's moderatley compressed by HDV. I've even rescued some recordings that required heavy background noise reduction processing in Soundtrack Pro, and got very acceptable results. The compressed MPEG2 audio was a non-factor.

What about 50Mbs, as used in the PDW 700?

(Though again, I see you do say "max data rates" - is it therefore continuously selectable from 50-100Mbs in this profile, or just 50 and 100?

Regarding the missing embedded audio on the XL H1, I strongly suspect that Canon simply did not have enough time to finish the code development to meet the product launch date. HD-SDI embedded audio is actually quite difficult to develop (about 5X the comlexity of SD-SDI embedded audio), so Canon was probably forced to forego this feature to meet delivery schedule.

We are continuing to study the possible options to capture the audio from the XL H1. The analog approach would eliminate the MPEG1 Layer 2 compression, but could introduce other issues (A/D and D/A conversion losses) depending on the exact implementation (ie do we take the unbalanced audio out of the camera or create a complete audio subsytem with microphone inputs). Capturing the audio out of the HDV stream also requires some engineering work to decompress the audio and sync with the HD-SDI stream. We'll have to way off the pros and cons of each approach.

Mike Schell

We will probably support a couple of different rates. While the MPEG2 CODEC can technically be set to a wide range of values, we want to limit the available number of data-rates so these can be properly tested and verified.

I can say that we will have presets for both 50 and 100 Mbps 4:2:2 full-raster Long-GOP. We'll set the I-Frame rates in the near future (160Mbps will be one of the presets).

Mike Schell

It all sounds good! But does bring one further question to my mind - will these be compatible with XDCAM-HD files (at least the 50Mbs version) as far as an NLE is concerned? I believe those are wrapped as MXF files - will your product do the same?

MXF will be the first format we support. We plan to implement the OP-1A method where video and audio are interleaved into one file, just like XDCAM-HD. So, you should be able to import these files into most NLEs (may require the aid of some re-wrapping software).

Mike Schell

Hi Mike,

Is the timecode needed with the HD-SDI to allow the XDR to remove the telecine on the fly with the XL-H1?

I am planning to do separate system sound and will need to run the timecode out of the camera and slave my audio recorder to it.

Or am I correct in assuming I will have to loop the timecode out from the recorder and back into the Flash XDR?

Hi Michael-
We don't need the time-code to remove the telecine frames. The time-code input is mainly to allow you to sync the video to an external audio device.

You should be able to loop the timecode out of the audio recorder as you described. However, since the time-code signal (LTC) is not terminated, you could actually run the time-code out from the camera through the Flash XDR box an then over to your audio record deck (daisy-chain fashion).

Mike Schell

HDMI only with high bitrate MPEG2 enc to CF recorder?
 

Mike, are you planing to do simpler/cheaper device for HDMI devices?

I am thinking about HDMI+FW input only (no HDSDI input at all (so no two boxes), LTC in/out for sync to other camera maybe, this is missing in alot of smaller cameras that can be used in multicamera setup-one master+few slaves) and with MPEG2 high bitrate encoder ( maybe with some restrictions also like only 3 modes HDV, 50 or 100Mbps.)

I need simple device that can record at the same time with HDV tape (like a slave recorder) but at better (or same) quality then HDV. This device must accept batteries for Canon HV20 or Sony V1 or have some adapter to loopthru that power to camera. (sony has HDV HDD recorder that has its own Batt, and often user forget to power it up...)

Cheaper version that has no MPEG encoder and just records as a slave from FW to CF cards (but with LTC in/out option for sync with other camers or external audio) is also an good way of transition to tape less for many users.

Hi Igor-
We'll certainly consider this sort of device in a future model. We've received a number of requests for a solid-state firewire capture device that would enable a tapeless workflow. As Flash prices continue to drop this becomes an attractive option.

Mike

Wow this thing is amazing. Sorry I didn't see it until now. This is the perfect device for Avid Liquid users and Liquid Chrome Xe users.

Liquid has native built in support for every profile, level and bitrate of mpeg2.

I have been working on some conversion tools for Liquid users to convert uncompressed footage into mpeg2 at up to 300 mbits I frame only. The conversion tool works great so far but of course it takes time and you still need the large raid to capture the material first. I have tried to make a capture program to capture directly to this format but it needs a lot of raw power in order for it to work well.

The Flash XDR is finally the perfect solution for Liquid. Now you can shoot video to cards and import that footage directly into Liquid and edit HD that is pretty darn close to uncompressed in terms of quality. The beauty of the Liquid Chrome XE (which is Liquid with an added AJA Xena LHE board) is that everything you edit will be in RT back through a SDI port. The best part is that I would assume you could hook the box up to the SDI output from the Xena card to use it as a RT mpeg2 recorder deck to create encoded masters of your projects from feeding live from the timeline.

Heck forget the flash cards. I think you guys should make a version for editors that is a box that encodes but then sends directly to a computer via some connection such as firewire or USB2. I know a lot of Liquid Chrome users who would love to capture to a mpeg2 I frame only format to edit with instead of having to use uncompressed with Liquid.

You guys should really think of marketing this thing towards Liquid Chrome users. They will love this thing. I will let as many of the other Liquid users know that I can. Keep up the great work. Can't wait to see it when it finally is ready.

This might sound a bit strange, but would it be beneficial for the Flash XDR to record SD via SDI ?

Mike - congratulations. You guys are the true innovators in this area. The combination of this box with Sony's new EX cam looks awesome as it outputs full 1920 x 1080i and P(@24) from the HDSDI port.

I'd reckon a docking solution for that cam will be a winner. I know you've already said you'll look at it but Express card support seems a logical extension of what you are doing.

I still think NLE support will be your biggest hurdle. Avid supports XDCam HD in OP1A MXF but I wonder if they'll ever support all the resolutions your unit is capable of. As Thomas pointed out Liquid is already there, but Liquid is an Avid in name only.

Hi Thomas-
Sorry for the slow reply. We do have a 1394 port on Flash XDR, so theoretically, we could stream out MPEG2 back to a PC/MAC. We would just need to write the 1394 drivers to accept our stream. I'll add this to our list of possible future enhancments.

Thanks for the feedback and reommendations-
Mike Schell

Hi Stil-
While this is technically possible, most users want DV support. Flash XDR only has an MPEG2 CODEC.

Mike Schell

I think all the major NLE vendors are planning to support the new MPEG2 4:2:2 profile, since Sony will introduce a new 4:2:2 camera early next year. Flash XDR has the exact same hardware CODEC as this camera. All we have done is extend the bit-rate and offer an I-Frame only mode. These additions should be easily supported by most software 4:2:2 MPEG2 CODECs. But I agree, complete support for all frame rates and resolutions, may take a bit longer.

Mike Schell

Mike - that makes sense as Avid normally supports Sony's high end gear in a timely fashion.

Mike, any info as to what Sony camera this is going to replace in the current line up?

Great thread. I only just read it all. Mike, don't go to coffee shops in Amsterdam, your brain is too important to us.

Hey, I just read the updated FAQ you have for the XDR, and I am even more excited about the product now. I really can't wait for this device, it definitely compliments my XL-H1 perfectly. 160MB MPEG2 I-Frame, real-time reverse telecine to 1080p24 from the HD-SDI, audio at 24bit/48khz, integrated mic pre-amps and XLR inputs w/phantom power; all in a 1lb small box that can mount on the back of the camera.

This is truly an excellent product ... finally something that handles the non-embeded audio issue with the HD-SDI of the XL-H1.

Bravo!

I have a question ... if shooting 1080p24, when you mics connected directly to the XDR, does it record the audio to match the frame rate of the video?

Convergent Designs has just released their updated F.A.Q. describing a number of significant updates to the forthcoming Flash XDR design. Interested folks can download this document directly from DV Info Net at http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=106861

Any way to connect one of these to an SI-2K mini?

Brian-
As I understand, the SI-2K mini only has GBit Ethernet output, so there's no way to stream to the Flash XDR.

Mike

That's correct. I don't know if MPEG has a 2K frame size available either...

Keep in mind that the SI-2K Mini needs the computer to run as that's where the brains are...

:-)

Thanks for the clarification Tim.

Mike Schell

I think Mike might be referring to the new 2/3" 4:2:2 XDCAM HD that Sony announced at IBC (PDW-700). Do a search on the net and you'll find the press release.

1rst Qtr '08 Delivery?
 

As we are now in the targeted delivery timeframe, is there any more info on availability?

We're chomping at the bit with our XLH1 and HHG1 ... can you see the drool coming off our chops?