DV Info Net

DV Info Net (https://www.dvinfo.net/forum/)
-   Convergent Design Odyssey (https://www.dvinfo.net/forum/convergent-design-odyssey/)
-   -   Updated Convergent Designs Flash XDR F.A.Q. (https://www.dvinfo.net/forum/convergent-design-odyssey/106861-updated-convergent-designs-flash-xdr-f-q.html)

Mike Schell November 16th, 2007 12:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian Langeman (Post 775931)
OK. So then can FCP 6 work with the 160 Mbps I Frame files that the XDR records? In any way?

Hi Brian-
We are working with all the NLEs for this support. Since Sony is introducing a 4:2:2 camera (early next year) which is based on the Long-GOP of this same CODEC, we expect I-Frame only support to come very quickly. I-Frame only is really just a subset of Long-GOP (without the B and P frames).

Mike Schell

Mike Schell November 16th, 2007 01:01 PM

Hi Paul-

We agree. Of course the camera must support 10-bit (effective) HD-SDI output, which is reportedly the case for the EX but not so for all cameras.

Stay tuned for more announcements on Flash XDR...

Best-
Mike Schell

David Parks November 18th, 2007 12:15 AM

Codec Licensed for Free!
 
http://www.ikegami.com/IKEGAMI_GV_EXPO_2007_FINAL.html
Quote from Ikegami::
"HDN-X10 EditcamHD tapeless camcorder is the first to use Avid's high quality DNxHD high-quality mastering codec to deliver HD resolution, full-raster (1920 by 1080) images that can be edited on laptop and desktop systems in real time. The DNxHD codec is an open system that can be licensed for free, ensuring viability far into the future. "

The HDN-X10 EditcamHD currently employs a data rate of 145 Mbps (Megabits per second) to provide 1080/60i, 1080/24p, and 720/60p recording and playback...

Mike,

Here you go. Avid DNxHD. It's FREE and could work at 10bit at 145Mbits/sec.

Even though Avid is going through a slight downturn, there are still a lot of Avids around. Maybe you could add DNxHD 145 to the codecs from Sony.

You should give them a call.

Cheers.

Mike Schell November 18th, 2007 04:50 AM

Hi David-

Good info, I'll give them a call and study it some more. It all depends on how difficult it is to implement the CODEC into our hardware (FPGA).

Thanks-
Mike

David Heath November 18th, 2007 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Parks (Post 777349)
Avid DNxHD. It's FREE and could work at 10bit at 145Mbits/sec.

Maybe you could add DNxHD 145 to the codecs from Sony.

In which case, what would be the situation with ProRes 422, for FCP users?

Paul Curtis November 19th, 2007 08:43 AM

cineform
 
of course after posting the bit about cineform i stumble across this

http://www.cineform.com/products/CineFormRecorder.htm

whilst that's HDMI perhaps there's a good partnership there somewhere?

cheers
paul

Chris Hurd November 19th, 2007 08:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Curtis (Post 777910)
Cineform... perhaps there's a good partnership there somewhere?

There's good competition there somewhere.

David Parks November 19th, 2007 09:48 AM

Paradigm Shift Possible
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by David Heath (Post 777541)
In which case, what would be the situation with ProRes 422, for FCP users?

Wow. That would be amazing.

This brings up a point. It would seem to me that the struggle between what is an aquisition format and a post format might get solved with a device like Mike's. Think about this. We've always had to make sure our edit systems conform with our camera selections. And it at times it has been a real pain.

For years the NLE makers have had the very difficult task of taking a codec specification, HDCAM, DVCPro HD, HDV, ADVCHD( and the many more iterations of frame rates, designed to encode and transport to a recording device, and make it editable. If you think about, those are two completely different processes. And we wait 6 months, to a year, to never, for our NLE of choice to be compatible with our cameras. This could change all that.

Mike, if your device happens to take Avid DNxHD, Apple ProRez, Canopus HQ, you could make life incredibly easier. And maybe you don't market the device to include all of them in the same package. You sell the device as an Avid box with only that one codec. Or the ProRez. ...etc.

Then we pick the camera for its shooting capabilities and not the codec that wasn't really designed for editing. You could use anything ranging from a HV20(HDMI to HDSDI converter needed) to a Red straight into a codec that you easily start editing with.

Imagine the possibilities!!!!

Sergio Perez December 20th, 2007 10:25 PM

To the Convergent Design team: How is the development going? Any update? New codec announcements? Availability?

Thomas Smet December 21st, 2007 09:02 AM

What about mjpeg? It is for the most part free and works with a lot of NLE's. The problem with Cineform is that the codec mostly lives in the Adobe or Vegas world right now. If you use another NLE you are SOL. Avid DNx is nice but it only works for Avid people so if you don't use that either you are SOL.

A lot of people usually snub mjpeg but what they don't realize is that mjpeg isn't much different then I frame only mpeg2. The same sort of DCT artifacts are there. The only problem is the device would have to be setup to let the user choose to wrap the mjpeg in a quicktime file or a AVI file.

Another area where you guys seem be be forgetting is nice about the XDR isn't just the 160 mbit/s mode but the other lower bitrate modes. IPB 80 to 100 mbit 4:2:2 is virtually perfect and at a much lower datarate then what any of the other codecs could ever dream of doing. Even 50 mbits/s 4:2:2 mpeg2 is pretty darn good and will be good enough just to give people who are fine with XDCAM compression that tiny extra chroma boost they may want. 50 mbits equals a lot of video per card compared to using Cineform, mjpeg or DNx. This means the choice to use mpeg2 gives the user a lot of options as to what quality they want and how much video they can get per card. Sure other codecs are nice but they are usually a one option only type of codec.

Pieter Op De Berg December 27th, 2007 11:32 AM

This sounds very nice to me.

I just was wondering until which capacity CF-cards are supported. Will future CF-cards of 64, 128 & 256 GB supported too?! I couldn't find anything in the FAQ brochure about this.

If meeting up to technical expectations - I'm very curious about the first production models - the only downside is maybe the pricetag. As already said 5000$ is a quite competitive price, but at 3500-4000$ it would absolutely blow away all the competition and be a no-brainer.

Greatings

John Richard January 5th, 2008 09:37 AM

Someone mentioned estimated availability of 1Qtr 2008 ...

Any news on a delivery date and a more finalized configuration of this simply AWESOME portable HD-SDI recorder?

We're drooling...

Malcolm Hamilton January 8th, 2008 08:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas Smet (Post 768433)
What I hope to do is// buy this device with 4 cheaper cards. sure it will still cost more doing it this way but// in the process I will have much higher quality and hopefully a format that will actually work in my NLE unlike the mp4 wrapper format that needs to be re-wrapped.

Hi Thomas,
I should perhaps have finished reading this thread to find the answer, but I couldn't proceed after reading the above quotation...
I edit on a Mac, using Avid... I plan to get the EX1 but I know Avid is slow to update, and right now, can't import the higher-than-25Mb/s EX1 files; are you implying, in the above quotation, that the format I'd get with this Convergent Design device (can you tell me what format it is, please?) - - might be compatible with Avid Xpress Pro? Next question: is this format (the Converg. Design one) equal to 35Mb/s?
Thanks,
Malcolm

Sergio Perez January 9th, 2008 02:06 AM

This silence concerns me...Please assure us this is still in development!

Mike Schell January 9th, 2008 10:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sergio Perez (Post 805257)
This silence concerns me...Please assure us this is still in development!

Hi Sergio-
Not to worry, we are most definitely still in development on Flash XDR, making solid progress. We're in the lab grinding away on the code and the enclosure design, that's why you have not heard much from us recently.

We're still shooting for protos in Q1 and production by NAB. We have plenty of motivation to get Flash XDR finished as fast as possible.

Mike Schell
Convergent Design

Sergio Perez January 10th, 2008 05:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Schell (Post 805936)
Hi Sergio-
Not to worry, we are most definitely still in development on Flash XDR, making solid progress. We're in the lab grinding away on the code and the enclosure design, that's why you have not heard much from us recently.

We're still shooting for protos in Q1 and production by NAB. We have plenty of motivation to get Flash XDR finished as fast as possible.

Mike Schell
Convergent Design

Mike,

Thanks for the quick response. Following some really exciting products I was following being canned (Cineporter and the Hydra, for example), its conforting to see you guys still on track with your revolutionary device. Keep up the good work, and do keep us posted on the process!

Mike Schell January 10th, 2008 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas Smet (Post 796301)

Another area where you guys seem be be forgetting is nice about the XDR isn't just the 160 mbit/s mode but the other lower bitrate modes. IPB 80 to 100 mbit 4:2:2 is virtually perfect and at a much lower datarate then what any of the other codecs could ever dream of doing. Even 50 mbits/s 4:2:2 mpeg2 is pretty darn good and will be good enough just to give people who are fine with XDCAM compression that tiny extra chroma boost they may want. 50 mbits equals a lot of video per card compared to using Cineform, mjpeg or DNx. This means the choice to use mpeg2 gives the user a lot of options as to what quality they want and how much video they can get per card. Sure other codecs are nice but they are usually a one option only type of codec.

You are correct that I-Frame MPEG2 is essentially identical to an MJEPG frame, both are based on DCT compression. While it would be nice to support every CODEC under the sun (CineForm, DNxHD, ProRes, MPEG2, etc) in a single product, it would be a technical nightmare in in the case of Flash XDR and would go aganist our basic design concept of portability and low-power. The Sony MPEG2 CODEC, which uses the same chip set as the upcoming Sony 422 camcorder is still an excellent compromise for power, size and video quality.

Overall, I think we will find a diminishing return on bit rate vs overall quality. For example, if the video quality "doubles" going from 25 to 50 Mbps, then it will probably only increase 20% going from 50 to 100 Mbps. We do expect a nice improvement in quality going from 4:2:0 to 4:2:2 color space and some improvement going from 1440x1080 to 1920x1080, but I doubt most users will notice a difference going from say 100 to 150 Mbps.

I personally think the "sweet spot" is going to be 50 Mbps 4:2:2 Long-GOP, which is a great compromise of video quality and storage capacity. With that said, 100 Mbps Long-GOP should look awesome for most applications.

Mike Schell
Convergent Design

Mike Schell January 10th, 2008 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pieter Op De Berg (Post 798790)
This sounds very nice to me.

I just was wondering until which capacity CF-cards are supported. Will future CF-cards of 64, 128 & 256 GB supported too?! I couldn't find anything in the FAQ brochure about this.

If meeting up to technical expectations - I'm very curious about the first production models - the only downside is maybe the pricetag. As already said 5000$ is a quite competitive price, but at 3500-4000$ it would absolutely blow away all the competition and be a no-brainer.

Greatings

Hi Pieter-
We are initially planning support for CF cards up to 128 GByte capacity, which is still quite a few more years into the future. 32GB cards are just starting to appear on the market. You can get a 32GB card for under $200. Unfortunately, it's only fast enough for 50 Mbps stream, but this is probably sufficient for most applications.

BTW, four 32GB cards provides for over 5 hours record time at 50 Mbps rate!

We think the price of Flash XDR is very competitive at $4995, especially given the price of HD decks and other HD recording devices.

Mike Schell

Tim Polster January 29th, 2008 09:23 AM

Mike,

Thanks for your recent update on the XDR.

I have a general question that I am a little confused about.

Given that the XDR can record in different framerates, is the framerate determined by the camera or the Flash XDR?

I don't know if the SDI feed from a camera is always the full resolution and framerate of a imaging sensor, and the XDR just takes what it needs.

For example, is it possible to get 720p60 out of an XDCAM HD 355?

Since there is a color space increase, one would think there might be a framerate increase.

Thanks

P.S. Are their going to be any video examples showing the benefits of the higher bitrates and color space on your website?

Chris Hurd January 29th, 2008 09:34 AM

I meant to post this earlier, but Tim is referring to http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=113482

Mike Schell January 29th, 2008 12:30 PM

Hi Tim-

XDR takes the frame rate and resolution from the HD-SDI signal. There is no cross-conversion (1080i <-> 720p) or frame rate conversion capability. So if the XDCAM 355 outputs 720p60 over HD-SDI then we can accept this format, otherwise we are limited to 1080i formats.

XDR will automatically locks to the incoming HD-SDI signal, supporting all the major HD resolutions and frame rates. BTW, HD-SDI is by definition always 4:2:2 color space.

XDR can be programmed to perform a reverse telecine and remove the extra frames (when capturing at 1080F24 mode on the Canon XL-H1, for example). Under these conditions the HD-SDI output is 1080i60, but we can remove the extra frames and record at 1080p24.

Mike Schell
Convergent Design

Tim Polster January 29th, 2008 12:35 PM

Thanks Mike.

Robert Ducon January 29th, 2008 05:06 PM

The Pro Look
 
It comes in matte black too, right? ;)

Mike Schell January 29th, 2008 07:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Ducon (Post 816720)
It comes in matte black too, right? ;)

Hi Robert-
That's still under discussion, but I have received a couple of e-mails requesting black.

Cheers-
Mike

Robert Ducon January 30th, 2008 12:28 AM

I for one would love one of your units Mike!

It's an honest point I bring up, for professionals which is where your unit is no doubt intended to be used. As a video camera operator, a client has to have trust in your abilities and your equipment. Many naive people judge by the appearance of equipment; the general public believes bigger is better. Also, consumer equipment looks fun and friendly, whereas pro equipment is often dark shades and serious in apperance.

For instance, more than a few people have assumed an old XL1 is a higher-quality camera than the XH-G1 because the XL1 is a shoulder mount, and larger.

A baby-blue Flash XDR will probably look out of place, whereas a black unit may be a better fit!

Jeremiah Patton January 30th, 2008 10:27 PM

Since we're talking about color, a nice black seems to be the best to me...it would work in terms of color design with most of the cameras that you'd find using it, from the XLH1 to the xdcam units+
Looking forward to more news!

Mike Schell January 31st, 2008 03:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeremiah Patton (Post 817440)
Since we're talking about color, a nice black seems to be the best to me...it would work in terms of color design with most of the cameras that you'd find using it, from the XLH1 to the xdcam units+
Looking forward to more news!

Hi Jeremiah-
Thanks for the input. I am at the Broadcast Live show this week in London. The XDR color is a major topic of discussion. We're still weighting in all the recommendations.

BTW, the Canon XL-H1 is our #1 camera for the XDR. We are working on several different mounting options.

Best-
Mike

John Richard January 31st, 2008 10:16 AM

FWIW we'd vote for a matte black as well. Glad the H1 is a major target. Your invention will make the H1 and XHG1 long lived beauties...

Awesome lenses, output capabilities (with XDR), size and form factor, price level.

Should help increase Canon's unit sales of these models ... and maybe Canon will then come out with more options due to increased volume of H1 and X1 cams out there. Snowball.

Carl Ny January 31st, 2008 10:39 AM

Looking Forward!

Benjamin Richardson January 31st, 2008 12:59 PM

Matte Black is the way to go!

Will it be able to be mounted on back or side of an Anton Bauer battery?

Tommy Schell February 8th, 2008 11:21 AM

Sony XDCAM MXF files
 
Hi,

I'm looking for Sony XDCAM MXF files to analyze the MXF format for the
upcoming Flash XDR's support of MXF.
I need 720p60, 720p50, 1080p25 clips in XDCAM.
I also need clips of the new Sony 50 Mbit 4:2:2 in 1080i, 1080p and 720p (MXF) (though I wonder if anyone has such clips, as I don't think the camera
is on the market yet).
Does anyone have such clips which I could get a copy of?

Thanks, Tommy Schell
Convergent Design

Paul Leung March 4th, 2008 02:58 PM

It would be really great if there will be a downgraded version with only HDMI and 1394 input/output for less than $2000. I am sure that it will sell like crazy. At least I will buy two units. The recorders will able us doing same-day-edit wedding highlight videos.

Too bad that the poll function in this forum is disabled. It would be interesting to see which functionalities most users are willing to pay for in a compact flash recorder.

Ethan Cooper March 4th, 2008 03:50 PM

I agree, a HDMI only version is right up my alley as well. Heck, I don't need it to be half the price of the SDI version. A little cheaper would be nice since the industry standard seems to be that you pay more for a piece of gear that has SDI. As it stands currently, those of us with "cheaper" non-SDI gear have to pay more to use this device cause we'd have to buy a HDMI to SDI converter box which would chew through batteries faster as well.
Something tells me we'll see this HDMI only version, it just makes too much sense. Right?

To obtain the faster speeds needed for 10bit data rates you have to set the 4 cards to a raid-0 right? What happens if you have to remove the cards from the unit and reload with fresh cards to keep shooting? How is it that the first raid-0 set of cards doesn't become corrupt or unusable at this point?

Mike Schell March 4th, 2008 04:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ethan Cooper (Post 837369)

To obtain the faster speeds needed for 10bit data rates you have to set the 4 cards to a raid-0 right? What happens if you have to remove the cards from the unit and reload with fresh cards to keep shooting? How is it that the first raid-0 set of cards doesn't become corrupt or unusable at this point?

Hi Ethan-
When shooting in uncompressed mode you will need to keep all four cards as a set. If you fill up one set of cards, you can then reload a new set and keep shooting. The previously used cards won't loose the data or become corrupt. To playback the captured video you will need to reinsert the 4 cards and put Flash XDR in playback mode. You can then capture the video into an NLE via the HD-SDI output. We might consider a program in the future to allow file based transfer of the uncompressed video, but HD-SDI playback will still be the fastest way to transfer the uncompressed video out of Flash XDR.

Ethan Cooper March 4th, 2008 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Schell (Post 837389)
We might consider a program in the future to allow file based transfer of the uncompressed video, but HD-SDI playback will still be the fastest way to transfer the uncompressed video out of Flash XDR.

Mike - thanks for the quick answer. I could really see the benefit of having such a file based transfer workflow since right now we're talking about 17 minutes of record time in uncompressed. Four cards per 17 minutes of record time would add up in a hurry in the field even with a fairly tightly controlled production. I'm guessing that you'd recommend using the MPEG2 based workflows when possible, but the option of uncompressed is hard to pass up. I guess we'll know more when we can see some of these high bitrate MPEG2 files. Too bad I'm not heading to NAB this year. I'd like to see it for myself.
And let me vote again for the HDMI version. Can you vote twice here?

Mike Schell March 4th, 2008 09:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Leung (Post 837343)
It would be really great if there will be a downgraded version with only HDMI and 1394 input/output for less than $2000. I am sure that it will sell like crazy. At least I will buy two units. The recorders will able us doing same-day-edit wedding highlight videos.

Too bad that the poll function in this forum is disabled. It would be interesting to see which functionalities most users are willing to pay for in a compact flash recorder.

Hi Paul-
So are you primarily interested in 4:2:2 color and better image quality or the tapeless workflow? What sort of camera are you using now?

Chris Hurd March 4th, 2008 09:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Leung (Post 837343)
Too bad that the poll function in this forum is disabled.

It's not disabled. I can easily start one if there's enough interest, so if the proposal is made to conduct a poll then I would be happy to consider running one.

Paul Leung March 4th, 2008 10:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Schell (Post 837517)
Hi Paul-
So are you primarily interested in 4:2:2 color and better image quality or the tapeless workflow? What sort of camera are you using now?

I have a Canon XH-A1. My primary interest is the tapeless workflow. As a wedding videographer, my ideal DDR has the following functions:

- 1394 & HDMI input/output
- S-video or composite output
- RCA audio output
- 4 CF slots. Non-raid. Concurrent recording to 2 CF for backup would be great! This way, I won't even need tapes for backup.
- B&W backlit LCD display for menu, clip deletion, storage meter, etc. Color LCD for clip viewing is nice, however, I doubt that it's important to event videographers as we download everything to the PC anyway. I will opt for B&W for lower cost and longer battery life.
- records in avi, mov, mt2, cineform avi (may be)
- pre-recording 5 seconds of footage
- Time-lapse function
- 8-bit/HDV quality is good enough for me
- different power options: AA, 12V, Camcorder batteries, etc.
- good battery life, of course.
- can be mounted between the camera and the tripod.

I am sure that you can sell tonnes of these if you can sell them for less than $2000 per unit. I bet that we will see more camcorders with integrated CF recorder coming out after NAB. However, there are many of us who have invested heavily on older HDV/DV equipment and need third party DDR. There is definitely a big market there.

Paul Leung March 4th, 2008 10:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Hurd (Post 837522)
It's not disabled. I can easily start one if there's enough interest, so if the proposal is made to conduct a poll then I would be happy to consider running one.

A poll is certainly great!

Ethan Cooper March 4th, 2008 10:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Leung (Post 837535)
- 8-bit/HDV quality is good enough for me

I'm a event guy too, and while I agree with most of the list Paul made, the point above I have to disagree with. After having used DVCProHD for about 3 years and then switching to HDV when I branched out on my own, I'd give my left arm to have better than HDV quality again. I'm not saying HDV isn't a technological marvel. It's amazing what they can squeeze out of 4:2:0 color space recorded at less than 25Mbps, but it's still lacking a bit. If it wasn't then your product wouldn't have a market now would it?

If I can use your (hopefully) vastly superior 50Mbps 4:2:2 codec over my HDV then I'd do it in a heartbeat. I'll take an image quality bump and the joys of tapeless any day of the week.
Thing is, once I add a $4000 box to my FX7 then I'd be dangerously close to the price range of the EX1 but with a smaller sensor that is worse in low light situations. At that point I might be better served going after the EX1. It would be a tough call.

I don't know if Paul had it in his list, but the ability to power this thing off smaller camcorder batteries would be nice too. It would definitely decrease the bulk a bit.


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 11:42 AM.

DV Info Net -- Real Names, Real People, Real Info!
1998-2021 The Digital Video Information Network