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Stuart Nicholls November 12th, 2009 12:42 PM

.MOV 1080p 30fps Long Gop
 
Just checking something too....

I was on a shoot at the weekend and the client needed me to record in 100mbs 1080p 30fps to match the Canon 5d MkII with the Iconix I was using.

They were editing in FCP and so needed .MOV files.

When I selected this in the flash it warned me that this was not a valid QT format.
MXF would work. So I changed to that.
I guess I have a number of questions.

Had I have changed from Long Gop to I-Frame would this QT warning have gone away?

Is there a way of getting MXF files into FCP?

I'm still working all this codec / compression stuff out... I'm gradually changing from a cameraman to IT expert in the process.

Cheers,

Stuart

Aaron Newsome November 12th, 2009 03:32 PM

5D can't shoot 30fps either. It shoots 29.97fps. QuickTime files can be recorded at 23.98, 23.97, etc. QuickTime files are the best option for FCP right now.

It's a good thing it would not allow you to record 30fps, then your footage would not have worked well with the 5D footage.

Dan Keaton November 12th, 2009 05:11 PM

Dear Stuart,

We issue that warning to prevent one for recording files that can not be edited.

Typically (almost always) Quicktime (".MOV") files are edited on Final Cut Pro.

Final Cut Pro does not support "True" frame rates.

While Final Cut Pro will handle 23.976 (23.98) frame per second video, it will not handle "true" 24 frames per second video.

The same applies to true 30p.

We allow True 24p and True 30p to be created in MXF as Avid and others do edit these "True" frame rates.

Daniel Symmes November 12th, 2009 05:21 PM

I need to chime in, since there's a myth being perpetuated, if only be accident.

BlackMagic, Bluefish, and AJA are the pro cards out there that work on the PC mighty fine (I've had two out of the three), and all use QT (the legal version that can be freely interchanged between PC and MAC).

Unless I need DPX (many clients prefer), I do everything QT.

So...QT is GENERALLY utilized on both platforms for pro work, at least in Hollywood.

That CD is NOT producing a "platform independent" QT is a bur under my saddle.

Thus, I get to wait until CS5, apparently.

Dan Keaton November 12th, 2009 05:28 PM

Dear Daniel,

If I have made a mistake, it was unintentional.

Are you saying that one can easily edit Sony XDCam 50 Mbps 4:2:2 @ HL (high level) CBR (Constant Bit Rate) footage, in Quicktime format, (".MOV") on a PC?

If this is so, then we would welcome the news. If so, what NLE with what add-on's are being used?

Now, editing 35 Mbps 4:2:0 Quicktime (".MOV") may be a different story.

Aaron Newsome November 12th, 2009 05:34 PM

Also Dan, FCP has no problem editing TRUE 24fps or 23.98 with correct timecode options for each.

Mike Schell November 12th, 2009 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel Symmes (Post 1446524)
I need to chime in, since there's a myth being perpetuated, if only be accident.

BlackMagic, Bluefish, and AJA are the pro cards out there that work on the PC mighty fine (I've had two out of the three), and all use QT (the legal version that can be freely interchanged between PC and MAC).

Unless I need DPX (many clients prefer), I do everything QT.

So...QT is GENERALLY utilized on both platforms for pro work, at least in Hollywood.

That CD is NOT producing a "platform independent" QT is a bur under my saddle.

Thus, I get to wait until CS5, apparently.

Hi Daniel-
Just for clarification, we do have a license from Apple to create Quicktime files, so I think our files are legal. We now have excellent support for MXF files for all NLEs, including CS3/4 (using the Main Concept Plugin). Our QT support is primarily aimed at FCP, since most of the other NLEs do not have great support for QT files that use the XDCAM HD 422 CODEC (QT playback in CS3/4 is rather choppy).

I can certainly understand that you may prefer to keep all their material strictly in one file format type. We do offer QT to MXF converters and will shortly have a MXF to QT converter via a free software download from Sony.

Best-

Dan Keaton November 12th, 2009 05:44 PM

Dear Aaron,

Are you saying if we record True 24p in Quicktime, and set the timecode to non-drop frame, it can be easily edited in Final Cut Pro?

Daniel Symmes November 12th, 2009 06:28 PM

Geez.

QT is the DOMINANT format for the systems I mentioned. Just that and nothing more.

Having worked with that format for over 10 years, I can say it works FINE.

But, there are NEW flavors which is where the current issues come from.

I can make QT files that can dropped into FCP, and I (ADOBE CS4) can accept FCP as well.

Thus, no interoperability issues.

But these new flavors do NOT just 'work' and currently require plugins (etc.) just to do part of the job. For me, I need to edit looking at my production monitor. Thus, I monitor from the SDI output of my AJA card.

Most anything Premiere or After EFX will load will be seen on my external monitor.

Right now...nothing from nanoFLASH can be seen on the monitor, and therefore, the MXF and MOV codecs are NOT 'legal' for normal editing on the vast majority of the editing software CURRENTLY available.

That EDIUS can deal with MFX and the particular QT flavor that works with FCP STILL doesn't address what an EDITOR wants - monitoring via the SDI of the editing system.

My ONLY workaround is to play out of the nanoFLASH into my AJA SDI and capture as a normal QT. I can hand that to FCP and it plays fine, as it has for several features and numerous TV shows.

Again, I've heard I'll get PART of the solution with CS5 (or plugins), which won't be in my hands until April at the earliest. Even then, I doubt I'll have external monitoring.

Thus my frustration.

BUT, I have already "sold" three nanoFLASH units because of my extreme appreciation of the product and the people behind it.

Aaron Newsome November 12th, 2009 06:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dan Keaton (Post 1446540)
Dear Aaron,

Are you saying if we record True 24p in Quicktime, and set the timecode to non-drop frame, it can be easily edited in Final Cut Pro?

I'll create a true 24FPS, NDF file right now and verify, although I've done a fair amount of work in both 24FPS and 23.98.

Aaron Newsome November 12th, 2009 07:17 PM

Also Daniel, the woes you speak of may be better understood if you consider that neither MXF or MOV are codec types. Both of these are containers that can contain any number of a dozen or more types of video encodings.

The troubles you speak of are not related to the container type, which is really just a file format.

The troubles you speak of are related to the codec type, which really has nothing to do with the container type.

The Quicktime files are not giving you trouble because they are not "legal", they are giving you trouble because the video is encoded with a codec that the system does not have a decoder for.

Daniel Symmes November 12th, 2009 07:53 PM

I fully grasp the concepts and prefer not to have write all that out each time. I first dealt with pointer/wrappers with DPS Perception/Velocity systems.

I'm simply sitting on the sidelines until my clients will pay to nail a moving target. Right now, they won't go this way for a number of reasons.

For now, If I stick with QT with appropriate BM/BF/AJA/APPLE codecs, I'm fine. We all (I do business with about 12 vendors) interchange files fine.

I am not blaming any ONE or any THING.

I AM saying the codecs in the CD products do NOT work well enough in a pro environment based on ADOBE products. Considering the price point of the nanoFLASH, a lot of Premiere fans are out in the chill, pending CS5 or paying for additional software.

I can't use the output of the CD product at this time.

Maybe BlackMagic, Bluefish and AJA will somehow figure it all out. Well, one can dream.

All things will change, so we'll see what the new year brings.

Aaron Newsome November 12th, 2009 07:58 PM

Ok Dan, took me a few minutes to test because I ran a bunch of tests on TRUE 24FPS NDF files. I was able to edit 24FPS Quicktime files in FCP with no problem whatsoever.

However, you may be correct in that some FCP decoders are limited to certain frame rates. For example. I created a MPEG2 file using the IMX encoder, which plays fine in Quicktime and other applications but will not open in FCP with 24FPS frame rate.

Here is my test file for you to verify:

http://files.me.com/aaron.newsome/qxmuv4.mov

This file is:

1080p24fps
XDCAM EX 35Mbps

Aaron Newsome November 12th, 2009 08:04 PM

Hi Daniel. There is another thread on that very topic. I just went through the same nightmare myself with Premiere.

It seems that Adobe are the ones who came up short on this one though, not CD. Premiere can read the XDCAM EX codec up to 35Mbs and no more. The CD 4:2:2 50Mbs codec can not be used on Premiere and obviously higher quality professional XDCAM EX bitrates are not supported in Premiere natively.

Since I like placing blame, if I owned Premiere, I know precisely where I would direct my frustration with that situation.

For my project, in the end, I just ended up transcoding to ProRes 422, which worked fine in Premiere with no quality loss. This was an acceptable workaround for all involved. A better workaround would be for Adobe to equip Premiere with more professional codec support.

Daniel Symmes November 12th, 2009 08:18 PM

Well, that addresses half of it, like I said.

Without playing out to my reference monitor, as I currently do, it's a no go.

I've played the Adobe game from very humble beginnings. Make that PAINFUL. But I've worked with most any system you can imagine (including Lucas' DROID). The Premiere/After Effects/Fusion interaction works for me, and virtually all my clients.

Getting all the parts to play nice is the GAME of time.

I wouldn't be surprised to see a cuts-only basic editing feature appear in the XDR/nanoFLASH.

Aaron Newsome November 12th, 2009 09:30 PM

If iphone can record avchd "like" video and do cuts only NLE right in the phone, what you're saying is totally doable in my mind.

Daniel Symmes November 12th, 2009 09:49 PM

I had a good laugh at that. I was going to SAY that.

Why not?????



iEDIT

Rafael Amador November 13th, 2009 09:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stuart Nicholls (Post 1446391)
Just checking something too....

I was on a shoot at the weekend and the client needed me to record in 100mbs 1080p 30fps to match the Canon 5d MkII with the Iconix I was using.

They were editing in FCP and so needed .MOV files.


Stuart

Hi Stuart,
Shoot p29'98 and Conform to p30 in CinemaTools. Just a mouse click, no rendering.
BTW:
- The Canon only records at p30.
- FC can edit p24.
Best,
Rafael

Mark Job November 13th, 2009 10:30 AM

Any Quicktime in any Flavor
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dan Keaton (Post 1446518)
Dear Stuart,

We issue that warning to prevent one for recording files that can not be edited.

Typically (almost always) Quicktime (".MOV") files are edited on Final Cut Pro.

Final Cut Pro does not support "True" frame rates.

While Final Cut Pro will handle 23.976 (23.98) frame per second video, it will not handle "true" 24 frames per second video.

The same applies to true 30p.

We allow True 24p and True 30p to be created in MXF as Avid and others do edit these "True" frame rates.

....HI Dan: Just so you know, Avid on the PC or MAC can ingest any format Quicktime file at any frame rate and edit them in that native frame rate. Quicktime is the heart of Avid Media Composer. When the QT file is ingested or imported, then it is wrapped in an MXF container file, but you don't have to be pre-wrapped, if you will, to get it in there, or have it work. When you do an export to quicktime from AMC at what they call 1:1 resolution, then Avid strips off the MXF wrapper and it simply copies over the file it was editing with (No Transcode takes place here). I hope this helps ?

Dan Keaton November 13th, 2009 10:53 AM

Dear Mark,

Thank you for your informative post.

Will Avid handle True 24p while using a Sony XDCam 50 Mbps 4:2:2 @ HL CBR file?

Mark Job November 13th, 2009 12:19 PM

You're Most Welcome Dan
 
Hi Dan:
I've upgraded to Avid Media Composer 4.0.3 running on an Avid Certified PC System, so if you require any specific file type testing, then I would be happy to assist you and the folks at CD with beta testor results. I'm also going to take some time and have a close look @ Long GOP 100 Mbps MXF files again. I suspect something. What if I shot Long GOP 100 Mbps, but this time as a simple Quicktime .mov file and imported *that* into AMC ? Dan & Mike & Tommy, I don't know if you've been informed, but that should work for several reasons. If it doesn't then I also suspect a possible work around. I will get back to you and post quantative specific results.

Respectfully,

Dan Keaton November 13th, 2009 01:23 PM

Dear Mark,

We would greatly appreciate you testing, in Avid 4.0.3, the following:

Our MXF 100 Mbps 4:2:2 Long-GOP.

Our Mov 100 Mbps 4:2:2 Long-GOP.


If these work, then you could test higher bit rates.

The MXF 100 Mbps 4:2:2 Long-GOP is the most important one for us at this time.

Mark Job November 13th, 2009 05:06 PM

I Forgot To Answer Your First Question
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dan Keaton (Post 1446891)
Dear Mark,

Thank you for your informative post.

Will Avid handle True 24p while using a Sony XDCam 50 Mbps 4:2:2 @ HL CBR file?

...Hi Dan: I just realized I forgot to answer your question directly. So sorry about that :-) Yes. AMC 4.0.3 handles all formats *Natively* Therefore, the answer should be "Yes," but I will test to find out. To be absolutely accurate in my tests for you, could you provide a download link where I can download all the test files for your necessary codecs and data rates ? Perhaps these could be special files made by your engineering department, which you absolutely and positively know are at their rates specific to our tests. I can certainly go shoot them myself, of course, but maybe you guys should provide the files specific to your needs as part of the control measures for this test. I only want to provide some sort of definitive and accurate feedback here.

Respectfully,

EDIT: I forgot you have some test files at the LOng GOP 100 Mbps rates with different fps on your website, so I'll start with those.

Dan Keaton November 13th, 2009 07:13 PM

Dear Mark,

Here are some test files that Tommy posted earlier.

These files are in our latest format, "Sony Optical Disk Format"

http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/converge...ml#post1440404

Mark Job November 13th, 2009 09:11 PM

Testing, Testing, Testing
 
Hi Dan:
OK. But these are not Long GOP 100 Mbps MXF files. This is another format. I have just completed a testing of the Long GOP 100 Mbps MXF format, and I will post the the results shortly. I want to check out a possible work around proceedure first. I will test Tommy's files now and post the results shortly.

Respectfully


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