Panasonic HS700/TM700 1080 60p camcorders
 

Panasonic unveils HDC-HS700 and HDC-TM700 3MOS HD camcorders - SlashGear

I don't know what's more shocking. An f/1.5 lens or a 1080 60p mode.

Looks like the full acquisition of Sanyo allowed them to more easily offer a 1080 60p mode.

So an updated HMC40 may be lurking in the wings, also .... nice!

I was actually thinking the same thing.


Looks like next month Panasonic will be showing off more products.
Products - LUMIX Digital Cameras - Overview - UK & Ireland

Wasn't it stated before that AVCHD does not support 1080p 60p? I'm confused now.

Too bad about the 46mm filter diameter.

I didn't see AVCHD mentioned anywhere in the press release, so maybe it uses something different?

Both 1080p60 and 28Mbps is outside the AVCHD spec. That doesn't mean Panasonic can't make a camcorder capable of recording it, just like Canon introduced 24F a few years back in their HDV camcorders. That was outside the HDV spec at the time (although it was later added). These new Panny cams will also record AVCHD as well as 1080p60.

Look at the pics.

Awesome. I was waiting for these to get announced. I am only not sure if I go for a new camcorder or a VDSLR. The digital imaging landscape is transforming at lightning speed now. So many choices. I won't buy anything till NAB 2010 is over.

Wondering what the chip size is, 1/3"?

I'd bet on 3 x 1/4", as with the present model.

I have no doubt they're using (or are basing their new codec off of) Sanyo's MP4 based spec when it comes to recording 1080p60.

Panasonic's product pages from their UK site...

HDC-TM700 -- http://www.panasonic.co.uk/html/en_G...358/index.html

HDC-HS700 -- http://www.panasonic.co.uk/html/en_G...497/index.html

All specs are published there, and yes they each have three x 1/4. inch sensors.

Why not just essentially take the encoding chip from the 300s and crank the bitrate up? I doubt they are going to put two encoding chips in the cam (essentially the one from the 300 and whatever was in the Sanyo cams).

There is at least one bit in the original release that catches my eye:
Now those specifications seem roughly comparable to a 4 to 5 megapixel Bayer sensor at best, so how on earth they manage to generate a 14.2 megapixel still from that sensor is completely beyond me. It may well output a 14.2 megapixel file, but it's likely to only be effectively an upresolve.

The 14 megapixels for a still is sort of nuts. I've got an HMC40, which shoots "10 megapixel" stills. While it does record 10 million dots, I'd sooner use my little old pocket-size Sony 4 megapixel point-and-shoot for stills.

B&H has the price of the TM700 set to $1,000.

The have the HS700 there now too, for $1399. That strikes me as a fairly pricey 240GB HDD. Funny thing is, the TM300 is a tad more expensive than the HS300 at B&H. Maybe the prices on the 700 will change before they actually start accepting orders.

I would always opt for the Flash version. Solid State media is much more reliable.

Nice cams; but how does one edit the 1080/60p footage?

Premiere with Cineform intermediate should work fine. Premiere CS4 may work natively - don't quote me on that though.

Media tanks like this can play back raw or edited 1080P60 H.264 and MP4: EGreat EG-M34A High-definition Network Media Tank (NMT)

I've tested a clip from an HD2000 on Premiere CS4 natively and it works.

This one is based on SIGMA DESIGNS SMP8635 which do not support 1080P60 H264 from Sanyo HD2000/FH1.

1080P60 H264 is Level 4.2 to decode you need at least SIGMA DESIGNS SMP8655.
WD TV gen2 ok for 1080P60 H264 is Level 4.2.

You'll find 9 native 1920x1080 60p files in this thread.
Panasonic HDC-HS700 & HDC-TM700 1080p60 cams - Page 5 - AVS Forum

For playback on a decent Windows computer, you'll need Nero ShowTime. The Sony PS3 will also playback the files.

The files are a little bit different than what's in Sanyo's camcorders. The PS3 plays them better. The bit rate is also a little higher. Still, just like the files from Sanyo's camcorders, Premiere Pro will also edit them naively.

It's wrapped in m2t instead of mp4. I can confirm Sony Vegas 9 injests the footage absolutely fine.

Watch.Impress review of the TM700:
http://av.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/s...24_356414.html

English Translated:
Google Translate

It took a while but better late than never.

Questionable Math at Best
 

Agreed. Ok, you have three 14-bit samples per real pixel. This is absolutely perfect for video, and despite all the talk of "dual mode" cameras, I still want my video camera to be optimized for video.

There's some argument that in-camera interpolation will yield a better result. That wouldn't be the case if you wrote out a 48-bit 3.1Mpixel TIFF or whatever, but given the limitations of the JPEG you're using, I'll bet there's an improvement. But all the way to 14.2Mpixel? Pretty dubious.

There are certainly "marketing pixels" in there. All the single-sensor cameras have the advantage that, in still mode, they're basically using the same high resolution Bayer-style sensors used in the digital still cameras. Those sensors are a disadvantage for video, but an advantage for stills, where the extra spatial resolution is useful and the lower color information not so much. So Panasonic's thinking very consumery here and trying to keep that comparable on spec sheets.

Of course, Sigma's been pulling off much the same story with their Foveon-sensor based cameras (single CMOS chips with three photo sensitive layers). I suspect anyone doing much still photography with any video camera isn't concerned with the best quality of still photos anyway.. they're printing 4x6 prints, and they'll be happy with the result from any modern video camera.

Like this...
 

It drops right into Sony Vegas Pro 9. Editing is not fast, but it works.

For multi-layered editing, I transcode to Cineform Neo, which produces 120GB/hr files with virtually no loss or additionaly compression artifacts.

The real question isn't editing, but what to do with the final video. It's has uses even so. You can decide after you shoot whether you want to deliver a Blu-Ray at 720/60p or 1080/60i. You can put 1080/60i on Blu-Ray and DVD, but still have nice, mice-teeth-free progressive video for online playback.

The PS3 can playback 1080p60, but only in XviD at 19mbps with all video noise reducers off. Even the best hardware H.264 decoders only do 45fps trying to decode 60p.

I can see XviD as the only deliverable to PS3s that can still play back the 1080p60 video smoothly. All you do is mux the AC3 rendered audio in VirtualDubMod after rendering an audioless XviD AVI and you get a deliverable AVI playable on the PS3.

Errr...Umm.....
 

I don't think the PS3 is using hardware to decode AVC... not with all those SPEs around. They can do a full Blu-Ray 1080/60i H.264 decode, rates up to 50Mb/s, on just three SPEs, so it's not unreasonable to expect 1080/60p to be possible on the PS3. The only question is support, and no, I didn't expect it, but tried it anyway.

Of course I know how to gen an XviD, DivX, or other H.263/MPEG-4 Part 2 -ish video stream. But dropping from AVC to that, then cutting it to 19Mb/s... what's the point? You video is going to look pretty bad... well, relatively speaking. Yeah, I know the original DivX-HD spec was for 720p at 3Mb/s or so (before Blu-Ray, I had a red-laser DVD player that did DivX-HD and WMV/HD from DVD, the IOData AVeL Linkplayer 2), but that was also full of artifacts, relative to today's video.

Hi Dave -

Do you own this cam? Reason I ask, is that I would like to get some feedback/impressions of the cam's ergonomics, footage and overall usability of it.

Also with Cineform Neo, does it make for a smoother editing experience with these files?

Yes, and more
 

Yeah, I have both TM700 and HMC40, the TM700 is quite new. But I started messing around with tapeless and 1080/60p last year with the Sanyo Xacti FH1... that convinced me that tapeless was the way to go, even given the issues with AVC editing.

The TM700 is a fine camera, given its size. The video is stellar, better than most anything you could get in the consumer/prosumer area for the last few year, as long as you have enough light. Like the HMC40, you're not going to outperform any of the 1/3" 3-chippers in low light. But Panasonic's CMOS sensors are getting really low noise these days, so you actually have more usable gain than you might expect.

They actually improved the optical image stabilization on the TM700... best I've used so far. Supposedly Sony's in the lead on this, but they seem to do an admirable job here. It's better on the TM700 than it is on the HMC40, which was day over night better than the digital stabilization on my old Sony HVR-A1.

Like most smaller cameras, you trade in a number of real buttons for menu items on the TM700. It's an improvement over some I've used in the past, but it still seems like at times, you have to dig too deep. But what else could they do? Like the Sony and the HMC40, the lens ring is a nice option, and can be assigned to focus or zoom, though I think you have to go to autofocus if you want zoom, which is kind of stupid.

If you only need one camera, the TM700 is probably a good choice. I wouldn't select it for still photos... the Sanyo even does a better job, as would most pocket digital models these days. There's still something about interpolating three 3.1Mpixel sensors into a 14Mpixel final image that's not quite right (there's certainly some value in the interpolation, but I don't quite buy the 14Mpixel result). But I never expect my camcorders to be still cameras, except on long backpacking trips, where there's a real advantage to doing it all in just one camera.

Overall, I think I'm liking Panasonic more and more these days, as you can guess from my camera collection (I also have a DMC-TZ5). This started a few years back. First, I bought my wife her own digital, one of the cheap little Pannys, nothing special, but it was the only ~$100 digital still model with optical image stabilization. Not only did the stabilization work great, but every shot she took was near perfect. I had been "fixing" her stuff in Photoshop when she was using my very old Canon Pro90IS, but no longer needed. Pretty cool.

Next, I bought my daughter a used SD9 for her "Communications Academy" program in high school. This is a totally miserable camera in low light, but with adequate light it was killer... and offered manual settings in a consumer model. That's about the time I figured I could mix in high-end consumer cameras with my usual pro/prosumer model for more serious shoots, rather than going for a second too-expensive model that would never actually get much hands-on use in that environment. And as well, you get pocketable high quality video for those times the full rig would not be appropriate.

Generally, yes, but realize you're trading one limit for another. Editing Cineform is more or less like editing DV -- it's very fast. But it's also big... 1080/60p conversions run about 120GB/hr. So if you have many layers of this, you'll find your hard drive speed is now the bottleneck, not the CPU anymore. I haven't had occasion to get too crazy with 1080/60p layers (I have some HD projects around here with over 40 compositing layers, but not in 1080/60p), and keeping the editing drive on SATA is of course a good idea anyway (I have a large RAID for stuff I'm not working on right now, but of course, you don't have to keep the Cineform files around).

Another alternative is proxy editing... you edit on a lower resolution version, then render the final video using the full spec files. There's an add-on to Vegas called "GearShift" that makes this really easy, but so far, I'm using Cineform effectively. Not that I don't do native editing too... for simple stuff on a quad core machine, native editing is fine.

I'm still not quite sure what to do with 1080/60p in the end. I shot my daughter's fall JV Soccer season on 1080/60p with the Sanyo (it's original purpose -- to save wear on my "good" cameras for more casual video), and I do like it for sports. But I still put it on Blu-Ray at 720/60p, since there's no 1080/60p support on much of anything. But if nothing else, the 1080/60p format lets you decide later on the publishing format, and is particularly useful if you want to go online and to 1080/60i Blu-Ray.

** I've heard good reports about both the HMC40 and the Sanyo Xacti which (the Sanyo) piqued my curiosity about 1080/60p recording. I love the smoothness of 720/60p footage and was waiting for some manufacturers to bring out a 1080/60p cam and now they are here!!

** That's good to know!!

** Agreed; but Canon's IS is pretty amazing too.

** Yeah, that does seem kinda of .... well, like you stated, stupid!!

** Are your photos from this cam that bad?

** HA!! I've got the Panny DMC-ZS3. It's a great little cam for both still and video (albeit at 720p). Amazing that these little pocket cams can do both quite well.

** I'll trade the file size for ease of editing anyday. HDD"s are very inexpensive and SSD's will get there someday too. Just can't justify paying around $4000 for a 1TB SSD!! (Yes, they do make such a beast)

** Yes, often overlooked...but a very welcome alternative if one does not wish to utilize a third party app (Cineform, Avid, ProRes)

** Well, it's always good to shoot at the highest resolution possible and down-res from there. But you're right, there are currently no consumer oriented mediums or software applications out there (at least to my knowledge) to deliver to in 1080/60p. Hopefully there will be; but I think a lot of focus currently is on 3-D stuff.

Stuff...
 

On the TM700 stills... it's a new camera, and I haven't spent much on the stills, but they seem kind of soft compared to DSLR or even TZ5 photos. But the color can't be beat. That's not saying "bad", just "there's better". That's ok... I bought a video camera, and it's good to know that's what it's optimized for; I know the 3-chip system delivers better video, for these kinds of cameras. I just think the 14Mpixel is an exaggeration, I'm not claiming it's going to make things worse. It's definitely true they benefit from some interpolation in making a still. And who really cares about the size of the stills, when you're using SD cards large enough for video.

On Canon IS... I have used a number of Canon cameras with great IS, at least for the day, including a Pro90IS EVF camera, an EOS DSLR with 70-300mm IS zoom, and a Canon HV10. But these things do improve over time, and lots of the review sites are indicating that the recent Canons fall behind both Panasonic and Sony (not sure about JVC). That's all. I do most shooting from tripods anyway, even with the small cameras, but it's nice to have at least one small camera with good IS. The TM700 is the best I've used so far.

Re: Like this...
 

Wouldn't the main advantage (for regular users) of 60p be the ability to do smooth slowmotion?

Re: Panasonic HS700/TM700 1080 60p camcorders
 

Yes, it's lovely for slow motion!

Re: Panasonic HS700/TM700 1080 60p camcorders
 

Dave - I'm wondering how you like the image of the TM700 compared to the Panasonic HMC40? And what about general usability? I presume the HMC40 is a lot easier to use manually ...

I used to have a Sony A1, but now am using a Panasonic GH1. However, I'm thinking of adding a small chip camcorder to the lineup for certain run and gun situations. I can get a TM700 for $700 or a HMC40 for $1300. Am thinking of getting a Beachtek XLR adapter so I could use prof mics in either.

Thanks!