Re: new camera: Panasonic AG-HPX250
 

Gary + Dan

Ok, i'm warming to the idea of this being my next camera having been set on the Canon XF range.

A couple of questions regarding recording times, and by all means pass me on to another link if this issue has been done to death.

I like the idea of being able to shoot in AVC100 at times, but at others i can live with lower end codec's.

What is the lowest HD quality this camera shoots at in terms of recording times?

If i decided to askew P2 altogether am i right in thinking i could buy the 160 version and a nanoflash instead?

Not sure about the Nanoflash option - or those diddy SD cards - so P2 makes more sense.

Should i go the P2 route, i would not want to buy more than 2x 32 GB cards, so what is there on the market for capturing this footage in the field? Do the Nexto recorders work for these cards, or is there another affordable device that does it?

Cheers

Dom

Ouch! Just stumbled upon the Nexto that is P2 friendly and its getting on for 2 grand. I'd previously been looking at the 200 quid models thinking they might do the job. Surely there are cheaper options available?

Re: new camera: Panasonic AG-HPX250
 

Both processes are simply different forms of pixel offset -- one is on a square
grid and there other on a diagonal, otherwise they are very similar. Both are
viable means of increasing resolution directly from the sensor block.

Re: new camera: Panasonic AG-HPX250
 

Chris,

do you know where one could read further into this topic?

thanks

Re: new camera: Panasonic AG-HPX250
 

The topic of pixel offset? You should be able to find white papers covering
the Pansonic version (known as the Pixel Shift process) and the Sony version
(known as the ClearVid process) on their respective company web sites.

Edit: here's a Sony document for ClearVid: http://www.sony.co.uk/res/attachment...7477501978.pdf

Pixel Shift described within this Panasonic document: ftp://ftp.panasonic.com/pub/panasoni...200.CCD-WP.pdf

Both processes derive an increase in sensor resolution by creating more sampling points at the sub-pixel level.

Re: new camera: Panasonic AG-HPX250
 

Thanks Chris! That's what I wanted:)

Re: new camera: Panasonic AG-HPX250
 

I agree, and that desirable rich film look goes back to the tape based Pana GS400 which first appeared in July 2004. IMO it *beats* the Canon look too, regardless of the Custom Preset used.

I've still got 2 fully working GS400s squirreled away .. to play their tapes from the archives.

Cheers.

Re: new camera: Panasonic AG-HPX250
 

Hi Dom the lowest HD shooting on the HPX371 is AVC Intra 50 at 720p you can also shoot AVC Intra 50 at 1080i 25np which gives you 1440x1080 pixel images. 720p will also allow you to over and undercrank the camera too.

I tend to shoot AVC Intra 1080i 25np most of the time unless I need to do varicam or need a lot of storage space when I drop it down to AVC 50.

I have four 32gb cards but find that two are enough for most projects and my low cost way of offloading to hard drive is by using a powerbook G4 mac which has a PCMIA card slot, I can then leave a card copying whilst still shooting but most of the time I clone the cards and verify them direct from the camera to a USB hard drive or go direct into my edit system.

You could also use a PC with a PCMIA card slot to copy the cards as they just appear a hard drives on your desktop and can be copied easily or get the new card reader that is less than £500 if you already have a laptop.

Re: new camera: Panasonic AG-HPX250
 

Thanks for the info Gary.

Looking forwards to Dan Brockett getting hold of this cam to review later in the year. It seems destined to Join Canon's XF300 with the Beeb's seal of approval, and more importantly, will produce outstanding images. Also, as Dan pointed out elsewhere Panasonic have covered all price points by making 2 ACVHD versions. Can't complain with that.

Re: new camera: Panasonic AG-HPX250
 

i'm also very interested in this camera.

i had the original hvx200 and never loved the camera. i found focusing to be a chore and forced me to use an external monitor in the field which really slowed me down.

over the years, i have been more open to p2. with that in mind, i would again look at p2 if i went with the hpx250.

my only wish is for the camera to be in the stores by summer 2011 rather than autumn 2011.

be well

rob
smalltalk productions

Re: new camera: Panasonic AG-HPX250
 

The HPX250 is now listed on B&H at $6495, just $4 less than the Canon XF300. I'm hoping for a comparative review when the HPX250 is released. This looks like it will be a fun horse race!

Ken

Re: new camera: Panasonic AG-HPX250
 

It will be a horse race. Great codecs, same chip size and resolution. Too bad neither of them offer 8-pin rear zoom control. I just can't have a LANC style remote after using the broadcast style 8-pin controllers. This is a nice feature of the EX-1, the other horse in the race.

Re: new camera: Panasonic AG-HPX250
 

It's interesting though... EX1 was the first in this race and has been wining for quite some time now. Surely they must be having a replacement for the EX1 in the works by now? Panasonic came very late to the game - even later than Canon... Sony EX1 was/is a really nice cam. I wonder if this move from Panasonic was maybe a little premature - because if Sony releases something new in the next 1 year it will surely beat the crap out of it's competition...yes?

Re: new camera: Panasonic AG-HPX250
 

Yes, it is very interesting. I see the EX-1 just the same as the Canon 5D MKII. Why replace a product that is still working? Like the 5DMKII the EX-1 has plenty of resolution and chip size and the competition has not surpassed it in the marketplace. The only problem is the next logical step for the EX-1 is the 50mbps 4:2:2 codec which would throw Sony's line out of shape. This is the main area where Panasonic and Canon have an edge. But lets face it, going forward skimping on the codec will be very frowned upon as memory gets cheaper and cheaper. Not to mention if Scarlet comes out soon with RAW processing.

I like Panasonic cameras. It is a shame they have abandoned 1/2" chips. If the HPX-250 had 1/2" chips it would be a no brainer to so many.

Re: new camera: Panasonic AG-HPX250
 

The codec/memory question isn't about saving money with memory any more. It's keeping the camera in a certain price range.

Now that memory prices continue to drop camera manufacturers should be able to use larger codes (but probably won't). 50Mb/s 4:2:2 mpeg2 is still highly compressed. It is better than 35 xdcam 4:2:0 but still give me 100 - 200 Mb/s 4:2:2 I-frame and I'll be happy.

Re: new camera: Panasonic AG-HPX250
 

I wonder if they will do hybrid camera next such as an HPX600/601 that is an ENG shoulder mount camera based on the AF101 4/3 chip but with the P2 system and AVC Intra 100 as the record end.

Re: new camera: Panasonic AG-HPX250
 

Couldn't have said it better myself, the real let down this year for me was from Sony and the F3, 35 4:2:0 is ridiculous. But this means I'm sure that the Ex1 upgrade will still be 35 4:2:0 not to step on the F3 toes. This looks like a great camera just like the Canon XF305 but 1/2 chips would swing so many people. I actually think that it would sway a fair amount of the Scarlet crew too.

Re: new camera: Panasonic AG-HPX250
 

"1/2 chips would swing so many people."

And put a large dent in Panasonic's more expensive line at the same time? Sony are faced with a similar problem with their EX upgrade.

Canon and JVC are the ones to watch IMO. They don't have higher end models to protect, though canon make a fortune supplying glass to the others.

It can't be long before Canon come up with a cam to go up against the af100 and F3, but in the meantime this new Panny range looks very nice.

Re: new camera: Panasonic AG-HPX250
 

I would have to praise Sony for its line right now and the focus on offering options to all levels of professionals. They have small and large format cameras from 1/3" all the way up to 35mm. I think this is a customer approach and in the end, does not take away sales that would not have been there to begin with.

The approach that says 1/2" chips will hurt a product line imho is out of touch by Panasonic. They have stated the HPX-300 was geared towards news stations. Well isn't that in place of orders that used to be 2/3" cameras? The fact is, people who think paying $20,000 for a body is too expensive for their budget are still going to think that way with or without a 1/2" chip option.

I have been waiting for JVC to step up and fill a void for a long time but they have released basically the same 1/3" camera for the last five years. I am not holding my breath!

Re: new camera: Panasonic AG-HPX250
 

Why bother putting in 1/2" chips if you can get the same or better performance and quality from a 1/3" chip?

HVX user since forever, dabbler with DSLR's and 1/2" Sonys. Barring global financial villainy, I will be a 250 buyer this fall.

Re: new camera: Panasonic AG-HPX250
 

Kevin, you have a good point. I would say that the performance of the 1/3" chips is very good, but a similar 1/2" chip would be better. This includes less noise reduction due to the chips being so amped up (HPX-370) or better light gathering ability (XF-300). Also the diffraction point allows more of the aperature range to be used succesfully with larger imagers.

Re: new camera: Panasonic AG-HPX250
 

Has anybody ever got the same or better performance as 1/2" from a 1/3" chip? (At least when comparing cameras from the same era.)

The laws of physics make it very unlikely, certainly if you compare like with like.

We've been over the ground many times, but (*all else equal*) the 1/2" chip will have a fundamental sensitivity advantage of more than 1 stop, will give DOF halfway between 1/3" and 2/3" chips, and will have a better usable aperture range before you get diffraction softening. (The Canon XF300 range seem to overcome the latter by some optical trickery, but their approach is unlikely to ever work for an interchangeable lens camera.)

Re: new camera: Panasonic AG-HPX250
 

Well from my own point of view I can live with a one stop difference, doing work for UK broadcasters inc the BBC my 1/3" chip HPX371 is BBC approved out of it's box (as is the XF305) where all the sony 1/2" camera's I would have to add more hardware (and cost) to make them acceptable.

I can now do 80% of my work with just the HPX371, if I need more DOF or capabilities then I hire the 2/3" HPX3700 or 3100 as they still use the same P2 record format and codecs.

Re: new camera: Panasonic AG-HPX250
 

And this got me thinking. The 370 with all it's noise reduction failed. Even so that Panasonic had to release an update which reversed the camera to the previous model (picture wise) the 300. So if the 250 is going to have the same chip set as the 370 or 300 for that matter I wonder what will they do about the noise "problem".

If they do nothing and the picture will be the same as in the 300 then the 250 will be behind the EX series and the canon XF series in picture quality (regarding noise. otherwise I'm not to judge...). The only plus will be the AVCintra codec. And even this great codec is still 10bit and is wasted on such a "noisy" picture...

Re: new camera: Panasonic AG-HPX250
 

Noise was never a problem in PAL with the 301 it was mainly the NTSC cameras that had problems, and from what I have seen the 371 is just as good as the EX ser if you use it right!

There are too many pixel spotters who don't know how to use these cameras properly and expect them to do wonders in the dark, it's mainly the DSLR brigade etc and if you use any camera with decent lighting it will perform very well. You need to know the cameras limitations but anyone who dials in +12db and above and think it will be Ok is asking for trouble.

Re: new camera: Panasonic AG-HPX250
 

All that I saw were pictures from other shooters and reviews... So I can't judge from my own experience. But wasn't the 301 judged for bad noise? And because of that they released the 371 that would rival the EX series in noise performance (the 301 didn't). But that failed and had to be reverted to the 301. So as I understand it the 371 with the update is noisier than the EX series. Yes?

I'm not saying it's a useless camera - just objectively thinking about noise performance between this cameras and which one is going to have the lowest noise...

Re: new camera: Panasonic AG-HPX250
 

Yes, but the HPX301/371 is marketed strongly towards news/documentary/actuality filming, and they are precisely the areas where it may not be possible to use decent lighting. In a whole raft of scenarios, ANY lighting may be impractical or unwise. It's either use gain, or go home early.

The 301 may work OK in good light - but be at a disadvantage as soon as the light levels start to go down. As Sanjin says, nobody is saying the 301 is a "useless" camera - but it is at a disadvantage compared to 1/2" or 2/3" cameras. And if you need to dial in 12dB with it to get exposure, with a comparable 1/2" camera you'd get better results at 6dB! With a 2/3" camera, you'll get better exposure at 0dB, than with the 371 at 12dB. (All else equal.)
Which is a very good point. We'll have to wait and see how the 250 performs in practice, but if I was thinking of getting one, I'd look very hard to see if it exhibits any of the "ghost noise trails" that plagued the 371.

The Canon is 1/3" - but is helped to come close to EX performance by lens design - a fast lens, with optical design that overcomes some of the worst iris diffraction problems. What will the HPX250 lens be like for maximum aperture? None of the so far released information seems to mention this (AFAIK), which may not bode well.

Re: new camera: Panasonic AG-HPX250
 

My thoughts exactly!

I do agree with Garry to. About the DSLR crowd. But yes - this camera is aimed at news - eng production (and corporate maybe).

Re: new camera: Panasonic AG-HPX250
 

Well personally I never use my HPX301/371 above +6db and as it has an f1.6 lens and CAC as opposed to the EX1/3 & 320 f1.9 I doubt if there is any practical difference between the two chip sizes, I certainly havent had to go home early on any job I've done and have shot in all sorts of lighting conditions including dusk and night shoots.

The ENG shoulder mount form factor is for me way better than the EX range and it is far more pro like than the sonys and the audio switches are far better, it also has five year warranty.

It may be marketed as a news camera in the USA but not here in the UK and I have used mine on everything from news thru doco, to live OB's and indie feature films, as said it's fully BBC approved for full HD shooting out of the box so that is good enough for me as it gives the camera real credibility in the UK.

The HPX250/251 should be a good camera too and with the canon will certainly sony will have to consider putting a 50mbs codec on their next generation of mid range cameras to replace the EX1/3 & 320.

Re: new camera: Panasonic AG-HPX250
 

No, there is a significant difference - I've seen one side by side with a 320. It would seem that the intrinsic difference should be a stop because of the chip size difference - in practice it should be more because of the boundaries between photosites not scaling in proportion. Hence for equal resolution, then although a 1/2" chip may have twice the area of 1/3", then each photosite in the 1/2" case will be more than twice the area for 1/3"

The latter factor roughly seems to null out with the f1.6/f1.9 lens difference (which is less than half a stop) - leaving an actual difference between the cameras of roughly a stop. (It's a while ago, but I seem to recall that at 0dB they both seemed to expose at roughly the same f stop, but as gain was added, the 301 showed noise worse than the 320. The conclusion was that at 0dB the 301 had a worse s/n figure than the 320. That's not to say it would be a problem as such - but would mean you could only use a lower gain for the same degradation.)
Yes, I agree. If they did, there'd be no argument. You'd be having your cake and eating it.

Re: new camera: Panasonic AG-HPX250
 

Thanks David and I take your point as you have had the advantage of seeing them side by side.

I had to make the choice for my camera system two years ago and went for the 301(371) mainly as the P2 system was common to the 301/371 2700 and the 3700 that I hire in for the serious work.

I also consulted Alan Roberts and his testing and the 301 was the camera for me as sony didn't have the 320 or 500 out then, they didn't even have the 800 out so my choice was made on the system rather than pure noise and technical considerations but Alan's report said it was acceptable and as it turns out two years later the 371 is now BBC approved out of the box.

I still await the 600/601 from panasonic and if it happens that will give us the large sensor sub £10k camera to compete with the 320/350 and 500 from sony but with the same P2 system that I have bought into.

Re: new camera: Panasonic AG-HPX250
 

Has anybody read or seen anywhere what's the filter diameter on the lens?

Re: new camera: Panasonic AG-HPX250
 

Hi Sanjin, the filter thread diameter on the Panasonic AG-HPX250 is 72mm. Hope this helps,

Re: new camera: Panasonic AG-HPX250
 

Hey, Chris! Are you sure about this, and if so, where did you get the info? Having handled the camera at NAB, it really seemed larger than 72mm, more like the 82mm of the HVX.


Nevermind…just saw it on the Panasonic PDF. Interesting.

Re: new camera: Panasonic AG-HPX250
 

I might as well attach that brochure here...

Re: new camera: Panasonic AG-HPX250
 

Is it just me or is that PDF SERIOUSLY garbled?

Re: new camera: Panasonic AG-HPX250
 

Looks like a 64 hundred dollar question to me. Yikes.....

Re: new camera: Panasonic AG-HPX250
 

Don't know if it's just you, but it looks okay from here. Anybody else have issues with this PDF?

Re: new camera: Panasonic AG-HPX250
 

No problems with downloading and printing the PDF.

Re: new camera: Panasonic AG-HPX250
 

PDF OK for me too.

Re: new camera: Panasonic AG-HPX250
 

Thank you!

What about the batteries? Same as the HPX171?