Re: S35 digi cinema camera for US$8000
 

I noticed that there are some public images of the render of the S35 revision that has just been delivered from the factory for testing.

there are links to some of the sample footage and frames I sent Kinefinity (tm) while testing the KineRAW-S8p (tm) at that link as well.

Re: S35 digi cinema camera for US$8000
 

I've been getting some calibration DNG from the two revised KineRAW-S35 (tm) prototypes the last few weeks, and making some monitoring LUT for the cameras viewfinder 'look' file use. Hopefully shooting of some demo test footage will start before too long...

Re: S35 digi cinema camera for US$8000
 

I do love the idea of 100Mbps 2K Cineform RAW. Will be great to see how this turns out.

Re: S35 digi cinema camera for US$8000
 

I posted the third test reel for the KineRAW-S8p (tm).

It stutters a bit from the Vimeo playback on my Brother's computer, and there are some spots left behind in the scrolling titles from the compression it seems, but you get the general idea of what shooting at f/0.95 with a 2:1 squeeze lens gets you,


Yea, there is no substitute for using a real anamorphic lens to get those great flare effects. I was using the ElmoScope-II anamorphic adapter on a Bolex H16 with a mounting plate held onto the turret , but the low resolution of 16mm movie film did not bring out the fine details like the KineRAW-S8p ™ can in part because film has so much grain and un-steadiness, the KineRAW-S8p ™ worked great for the two composite shots since there is zero regeneration error.

Lots more features and lenses to test in the KineRAW-S8p ™ like 1920×1440 for 4:3 in Black and White (someone in Europe was asking about that), and 220fps slow motion etc.

Re: S35 digi cinema camera for US$8000
 

Ha, that's awesome! Loved everything about it, especially the difficult casting job and all of those folks in the credits. Outstanding, Dan!

Re: S35 digi cinema camera for US$8000
 

Love it Dan! THAT's a camera test :)

Re: S35 digi cinema camera for US$8000
 

that looks amazing,
plus anamorphic , men it's beautiful!
thank you for posting!

Re: S35 digi cinema camera for US$8000
 

Thanks for the complements, my Brother did most of the work on that one, building the "antimatter" reactor model and the other set parts, as well as playing the three "clones" that work at the reactor complex.

It was shot with the standard Panavision (tm) CinemaScope (tm) Cineon (tm) scanner resolution that is used in the Celco (tm) film recorder for making 35mm printing negatives from which release prints are made, 1828x1556 pixels for 2.35:1 aspect ratio.

1828x1556 is called 2K because in the scanner and film recorder used to output the DPX files are 2048x1556 pixels, the extra width is just black area that is used for the optical sound tracks, both digital and analog.

For making Blu-ray using the 1920x1440 shooting mode might avoid the horizontal expansion from 1828 to 1920 and make the images a bit sharper and have fewer re-size artifacts.

Normally if you are shooting for scope format, 2.35:1 or 2.39:1, you would shoot most of the footage using the camera's 2592x1104 resolution and just use the 1828x1556 mode for the anamorphic effect shots.

Outputting the 1828x1556 mode to 35mm film would avoid the horizontal expansion so might look a bit better on the movie screen.

==

Work is going forward for the KineRAW-S35 (tm) I've been getting test DNG frames to analyze and process the last few weeks, the noise levels at EI/ISO 800 on the S35 look maybe a bit lower than at EI/ISO 200 on the S8p, so that's good news for shooting with the S35 by available lighting.

The new second prototype of the KineRAW-S35 (tm) is being calibrated and adjusted now, shooting is planed as soon as some issues can be worked out and the monitor calibrated to light meter measurements of the actual EI/ISO to get best results at.

==

I got a 3.5mm f/2.4 Kowa megapixel lens, so I hope to shoot some hand held shots on the KineRAW-S8p (tm) with that when I get some free time and make a Vimeo reel to show what that looks like at various frame rates, the prototype can shoot 23.976/24/25 as well as 48 and 72fps and I have skip frame printing in my de-Bayer program. It can also shoot 59.94fps at 1280x720, 29.97fps at 1920x1080, and up to 220fps at windowed sensor area. It has various resolutions like 2400x1200 for 2:1 aspect ratio, 2228x1252 for 16:9 oversample, 2048x1152 for 2K 16:9 or 1.85:1 with a bit extra for the film frame lines not to show, 2048x1080 for DCP 2048x858 for 2.39:1 and 1998x1080 for 1.85:1 DCP for projection in digital movie theatres.

The production camera may have improvements that allow for better results as well, but that design revision may take place after the KineRAW-S35 (tm) is on sale in China in maybe not too much longer.

Re: S35 digi cinema camera for US$8000
 

my first and only question: when can I buy one? Seriously, it looks great and as long as they don't pull a Red on us and double the price it'll be great.

Re: S35 digi cinema camera for US$8000
 

I made some new photos of the KineRAW-S8p (tm) with different shooting configurations, with anamorphic lens and matte box, with follow focus gear on 12.5mm f/1.4 Fujinon 5MP lens and matte box with Mitchell follow focus, and using a 9.5-57mm f/1.6 reflex zoom that has optical view finder.

The color on the viewfinder looks better than how it shows up in the photos, its hard to take a photo of the LCD monitor and get the light on the subject the same contrast ratio and color balance, but to the eye the monitor image show more saturation and tonal range.

About when you can purchase one, email Kinefinity.com (sm) and tell them you have a serious interest unless they change the price etc. The more people that tell them they are interested the more they know about the interest.

The main question with the S8 is should they put the current design into limited production, or should they have more delays to make improvements?

The core of the camera has been working for more than a year, and they fixed some issues through firmware revisions, so its usable now I think for real filmmaking, a few minor changes would be good but it could be produced as is so far for people that are going to use it as intended. The proposed revisions would widen the market, but also maybe delay things for some time and possible inch the price up a bit?

I was all for producing the PREVIOUS version that had a sheet metal case, in place of the nice machined one this model has, so I think they could do both but they have their own ideas...

They are finishing up the KineRAW-S35 (tm) second prototype now, I have gotten some calibration DNG back and the ISO and tonal range and color look good, there are some issues with the OLPF selection.

Anyway, here are some photos, I hope to start shooting some hand held shots with the KineRAW-S8p (tm) soon, I purchased a 3.5mm f/2.4 Kowa megapixel HR lens, on the videwfinder it looks usable, I will have to shoot some tests because at 1920 wide on Vimeo its a challenge to be flawless, watch out for other camera makers only showing 1280x720 videos as there is a big leap from 1280 wide to 1920 wide in terms of de-Bayer artifacts showing up. I have some work to do on my up scaling features in my de-Bayer program, but if you stand back a 'safe distance' or transfer to 35mm print, they aren't as noticeable as putting ones noise on the 2K computer monitor etc.

Re: S35 digi cinema camera for US$8000
 

dropped them an email. I'll express as much interest as I can to get them inspired to start making them. I'll even shoot my next film on a prototype as I like the challenge (and makes a great story :))

Re: S35 digi cinema camera for US$8000
 

just my 2 cents, but I think guys should start making those in limited quantities with explanation that camera is in beta stage, learn from RED:)
it'll help them financially and they will get much better QA reports from actual users of the camera;
funny, but I use the same mike for the scratch sound on my scarlet :))

Re: S35 digi cinema camera for US$8000
 

Hey Buba,

If you're still listening, how is that Scarlet working out for you? I'd like to get an objective opinion from someone who has a lot of experience with DSLR shooting and workflow.

Re: S35 digi cinema camera for US$8000
 

don't wanna hijack the thread, but,
it produces gorgeous, very high detail image, it's absolutely incomparable with any DSLR, although i will side-by-side it with 5DIII as soon as it'll arrive, dynamic range of Scarlet, even without HDR, is amazing, with HDR it's unbelievable, it is not run and gun camera, and it needs light,
there is no big difference in workflow for me as my main editor is Vegas, it takes native R3Ds, but of course real time full rez is not possible even on my ultra fast PC. I don't like cooling fan noise, although it's better than C300, I don't like crop thing - no in camera down sampling, and I'd love to have at least 96fps @ 4K, ,but i agree - Scarlet IS a gateway drug to Epic

Re: S35 digi cinema camera for US$8000
 

The goal of making the KineRAW (tm) cameras was to offer an alternative to the compressed camcorders that don't record all of the sensor data. If that matters to the filmmaker or not depends on what results he is looking for and what his end use is going to be.

With the end of 35mm film printing most if not all distribution is going to be on lossy compression, but there can still be advantages to shooting uncompressed and doing an uncompressed DI to avoid double compression losses.

Digital Cinema Cameras are meant for making movies for theatrical projection, and so HDSLR may not satisfy the filmmaker as well for that use as for youtube use etc.

If the camera gives the kind of images the filmmaker wants then in my mind that is the most important issue.

If you cannot afford any given high end option, then you have to look at what your options are like:

1) Shoot 35mm short ends, pay for processing and do your own film scans on a DIY scanner

2) Shoot with an HDSLR and do post processing to get what you can out of it

3) Shoot with a low cost Digital Cinema Camera and deal with CinemaDNG if you want to get all you can or use the Cineform (tm) workfow

4) Raise more money from investors and rent the high end equipment.

Which of those four options will put the best looking movie on the movie screen, and within that what are the factors that make the "best" part:

1) The look of the camera

2) The look you can get from the workflow

3) The money you have left over for actors, costumes, and locations, as well as catering etc.

4) What is the cost for post production using any of the camera choices

5) Are you going to 35mm release print or DCP projection, and can you book a DCP theater or a 35mm film theater in the target region.

6) How many setups you can get in a day, what shooting ratio can you afford media for.

Everything that goes into the making of the film impacts the audience reaction, so you need to work that balance out for yourself.

Re: S35 digi cinema camera for US$8000
 

I posted the fourth Vimeo video, D1, showing some hand held footage made with the KineRAW-S8p (tm), you can read my text on that video's page for more information about how it was done and the 1920x817 crop from 1920x1440 shooting mode used.

Re: First Sample Footage from S35 digi cinema camera for US$8000 Second Prototype
 

I got an email today from Kinefinity.com (tm) that their field tester using the second prototype of the KineRAW-S35 (tm) for field testing had made a MOV file of some footage he has shot to check out the monitoring LUT.

You may see some FPN in some shots, the monitoring LUT are still in development, and the FPN masking code used was part of the Cineform (tm) library codes as far as I can make out. I have been talking with them about the FPN masking development for the DNG workflow through my de-Bayer program (not used in this test footage, as it was shot Cineform (tm) recording mode).

The KineRAW-S35 (tm) can shoot:

1) DNG only.

2) Cineform (tm) only (requiring dark calibration before shooting).

3) Or Both DNG (CinemaDNG) and Cineform (tm) AT THE SAME TIME.

The advantage of the Both mode is that if there is a problem with the dark calibration for the wavelet compressed Cineforn (tm), as seems to happen with RED's (tm) cameras from time to time using their version of wavelet compression called REDCODE (tm), you have a fall back on the 100% sensor data in the CinemaDNG frames.

You can also use the Cineform (tm) compressed version as a proxy for fast editing and do you DI from the fully uncompressed CinemaDNG (tm) frames to get lossless data all the way to the movie screen if you make an IMAX (tm) print etc.



Quote: [

There are 720p H.264 mov for downloading:
final_422hq-QuickTime_H.264.rar????|115??|??|115,????|??????|????|????-???????

There are some Cineform RAW footages for downloading:
Clip1: clip1.rar????|115??|??|115,????|??????|????|????-???????
Clip2: clip2.rar????|115??|??|115,????|??????|????|????-???????
Clip3: clip3.rar????|115??|??|115,????|??????|????|????-???????

The Cineform (tm) player is here,

Cineform « Neo Player Download

]


You can open the rar with the free program 7-Zip (tm).

The MOV is at least double compressed since the camera original was Cineform (tm) compressed, as the people testing in China seem to mostly be interested in Cineform (tm) workflow for the present. There is also a version of the MOV on youku but I do not recommend looking at it since it shows ghastly compression losses. Just download the MOV and look at it 1:1 pixel (not resized to fill your screen) to avoid aliasing from the viewers resizing the images.

==

I'm continuing to work on the 4:3 black and white oversample lens test video for the KineRAW-S8p (tm) its mostly done I just have some more shots to process and to do the titles and final editing, so hopefully I can get that done in a couple of weeks. After that I have part of another color oversample video shot to finish showing the KineRAW-S8p (tm) 2.35, 2:1, and 16:9 oversample modes of the same subject.

I have a sample KineRAW-S35 (tm) here now, it came a few days ago, to use for a while perhaps to shoot calibration frames for making the monitoring LUT, as many such monitoring LUT are needed for the various K, ISO, and look type such as low contrast, normal, high contrast, FILMLOG, SOFTCLIP etc, it gets to be maybe 100 or so LUT I need to calibrate to be able to be downloaded by camera users to put into the camera via a USB memory stick drive. So I'm busy getting that on the way so people will have enough monitoring to use for the start of sales of the camera.

I have already made quite a few LUT from EI/ISO 80 to 5120 for Daylight and Florescent. For some reason they seem to not use Tungsten 3200K lights in China? So that was one reason that I was sent the camera, I have lights here, and there is no smog in San Francisco so the daylight should be more true to 5600K for the making of the calibration DNG frames.

At least in the above link to the MOV you can see the flesh colors may look better than in the first prototype video and there are no serious pink highlight issues, so the monitoring and color matching seem to be progressing on track. I don't know all the details of the workflow that was used, if that is important to you, you can write directly to Kinefinity.com (tm) and ask any questions you like about their MOV file and how it was made.

If you can't get the .rar file to unzip you need to re-download because sometimes files get corrupted on downloading. You need to click on the green button on the page that comes up for their download company, in Firefox if you check "always ask the folder to save to" in its options, a pop-up window will open on your PC and you can select the folder to save the rar file into. You cannot open the download twice without closing the windows it seems, but you can have Firefox download all four rar files at once if you have a high speed connection by selecting the green button that comes up on the Chinese page at those links above. If you have any problems try again or write to Kinefinity.com (tm) for help.

Re: New Photos of KineRAW-S35 (tm) digi cinema camera for US$8000
 

Here are some photos of the first KineRAW-S35 (tm) [second prototype] demo video being made in China, see the link above for MOV and Cineform (tm) shots from this demo. [see the links to the rar files in my post above in this thread]

If you use a DI system you can ask them for the 3D-LUT used, they said they will post some on the same download site for people to try out.

When I know more about that link I may add it here.

The playback in Quicktime (tm) player of the Cineform (tm) clips may look green and washed out, that's because its playing at native sensor color balance maybe, I asked them about the issue of useing the 3D-LUT with Quicktime (tm), anyone know if there is a way to get Cineform (tm) to playback in Quicktime (tm) with the LUT applied?

They said to pass this information on:

Quote: [
When you post clips, you need to tell them that:
1. Lens: SONY 35mm and 80mm PL mount lens.
2. KineRAW-S35 Digital Cinema Camera, with KineMAG-64GB SSD.
3. Viewfinder is SONY CLM-V55.
4. Clips are Cineform encoded RAW files, it needs to download free Cineform decoder if not, as following link:Cineform « Neo Player Download
5. Attached are some photos onsite.

]

Quote: [They can just use the LUT in Speedgrade or Davinci.]

If you would like the full resolution version of those JPG you can email me or them, I reduced them and increased the compression so I could fit them into this post, the originals do not show aliasing and are about 4x the area.

Re: S35 digi cinema camera for US$8000
 

Here's the S35 at the BIRTV tradeshow in Beijing.


DSLR News Shooter | BIRTV 2011 – China’s answer to Red? The Kinefinity KineRAW S35 digital cinema camera for US$8000

Re: S35 digi cinema camera for US$8000
 

HDMI and SDI on the back as well as 2 USB 3 ports and what looks like a network port.

Re: Free 3D-LUT links for S35 digi cinema camera for US$8000
 

The photo above from BIRTV is not the current camera model, that was KineRAW-S35 (tm) prototype one, the current model is KineRAW-S35 prototype two and has many changes and improvements, and is I think smaller and lighter weight.

I have one here for shooting calibration DNG for making monitoring LUT and doing some lens mount adapter measurements and such, as the OLPF+IR cut filter requires optical distance measurements for the Flange to Focal length distance.

Also the MSRP may be lower than the $8000 shown above and may include a lens adapter, which is quick change with accurate FFD, and a KineMAG (tm) SSD to record uncompressed or Cineform (tm) to.

==

I got another email today from Kinefinity.com (sm) with the links to the LUT needed for working with the Cineform (tm) samples,

Quote: [
Here are links for Low-Contrast Rec709 LUT.

1. daylight-160.look: daylight_160.look????|115??|??|115,????|??????|????|????-???????
2. daylight-160.cube: daylight_160.cube????|115??|??|115,????|??????|????|????-???????

Speedgrade NX, Firstlight can use .look file, while Da Vinci Resolve uses .cube file. People can use the LUT as monitoring LUT, but also use it as a starting point of grading .
]

As before you click on the green button, and in firefox if you have the "always ask folder to save to" option selected a window will pop-up so you can select the folder to save the files into.

Those 3D-LUT are made by the camera from the monitoring LUT selected during the shooting of each shot, and each shot folder gets the matching 3D-LUTs to view it matching the monitoring.

The idea behind the LowCon709 look group is that you would re-grade the images, its a bit like FILMLOG or Cineon (tm) type 'LOG-C' but adjusted so that there is softclip included and it uses a wider range of tones but not the full range so that there is no strong S-curve or major clipping other than white balance.

I made those monitoring LUT for the camera so they could shoot some test footage and re-grade it with an S-curve and black crush, but it seems that concept got lost along the way a bit, so if you try to use those 3D-LUT keep in mind that they do not make finished Rec709 nor were they intended to. So you will see more FPN than would be normal because of the stretch in the shadow detail part of the curve, that is to give the widest latitude in shooting and to overcome the poor shadow and highlight detail of the small LCD monitors used for camera monitoring, with the intention that the black and white ends of the tonal range would be rolled off in grading by a skilled colorist while still giving some latitude for small exposure errors in shooting.

I have since changed my developmental code for making the camera monitoring tables so I have better control of the foot and toe of the transfer curve at the higher ISO speeds (where the curves are steep at the bottom end) so I can add some roll off to the toe when I revise these tables and that would show less FPN and shadow noise, some of which I have already done in the Normal and HighCon look groups for monitoring tables since those were made after the program revisions.

BTW: Those 3D-LUT are just made to work with the native sensor color balance of the current KineRAW-S35 (tm) and its improved OLPF+IR cut filter, using them on any other camera's data will not yield useful results, they are just for use with the Cineform (tm) clips linked to above if you want a starting white balance to grade from.

The links to the Cineform (tm) clips you can download and the sample edited MOV you can download are in posts in the previous page.

If you have any questions about the sample clips from this field testing you can email Kinefinity.com (tm) and ask them about the workflow they used.

Re: S35 digi cinema camera for US$8000
 

There is what looks like an over compressed version of the MOV file on Vimeo now along with a better looking grade made by someone that downloaded clip #3 here,



Its best to download the original files yourself and look at them in Quicktime (tm) player, you need to get the Cineform (tm) codec for Quicktime (tm) from the Cineform (tm) site to play the Cineform (tm) clips with raw color balance (ungraded).

There is also a badly over compressed copy of the MOV file on youku,

Quote: [

Hi, Dan,

Here are our show reel by our domestic partner:

This on youku(like Chinese youtube.com) link:
KineRAW S-35,???????? - ?? - ???? - ????

There are 720p H.264 mov for downloading:
final_422hq-QuickTime_H.264.rar????|115??|??|115,????|??????|????|????-???????

There are some Cineform RAW footages for downloading:
Clip1: clip1.rar????|115??|??|115,????|??????|????|????-???????
Clip2: clip2.rar????|115??|??|115,????|??????|????|????-???????
Clip3: clip3.rar????|115??|??|115,????|??????|????|????-???????

...
]

I did not post the youku.com version because it shows obvious compression artifacts, the MOV file that is zipped in the rar is much sharper from 115.com.

Not much to judging a camera that shoots uncompressed at about 100MB/s from versions that have been compressed at least three or four times, so hopefully I will be able to shot some CinemaDNG (tm) and make a 6000Kbps MPEG4v2 to upload at Vimeo, but even that at 1920x1080 shows losses over making an uncompressed AVI file when viewed as all uncompressed playback from all uncompressed DI in my DI system, at least it does with the KineRAW-S8p (tm) tests I have viewed both ways, the uncompressed AVI is visibly better when viewed close to the monitor as the image would be viewed off a full size movie screen from a DCP or 35mm/IMAX (tm) film print.

Ick like cell phone video does not do well for showing what a raw recording S35 sensor camera can do...

If there is an important question try emailing me or Kinefinity.com (sm) with a clear subject line for the email.

Re: S35 digi cinema camera for US$8000
 

I have posted two more KineRAW-S0p (tm) videos on vimeo showing the use of over-sample modes 1920x1440, 2228x1252, 2400x1200, 2952x1104.

Sorry about the compression artifacts, if you want to see what the uncompressed original BMP frames used to make the video uploaded look like you can email me and ask for sample frames, my email is: tempnulbox [at] yahoo [dot] com and put "DVinfo user wants frames" in the subject line so I know its not junk mail., thanks.




The work on the KineRAW-S35 (tm) continues, I made a new kind of monitoring LUT for it, and the results for color matching on all workflow options seems improved in compatibility and image quality. The tonal range, resolution, and color all look good so far as does the noise level from the CinemaDNG workflow as well as some improvement on the Cineform (tm) workflow quality as well maybe. Each firmware revision and progress on the monitoring LUT development seem to get closer to the goal of a functional Digital Cinema Camera.

I shot some Cineform and CinemaDNG at the same time the other day to test the new experimental monitoring LUT and my brother installed the Cineform codec on his fast computer and we were able to load the 3D-LUT the camera makes for color matching of each shot and were able to watch color correct 2048x1080 playback from the Cineform camera version on my Brother's 2K monitor full size both in Quicktime and loaded into Sony Vegas NLE. The advantage of using the Both mode is that you can record both Cineform and CinemaDNG, and use the Cineform as a high quality proxy for editing and then do the uncompressed DI from the CinemaDNG if you like, or just finish from the Cineform and hold the CinemaDNG for later use.

Be sure to watch the videos 1:1 pixel on a 1920x1080 or larger monitor, don't "fit to screen" if you have a larger or smaller monitor as that can make aliasing.

Re: S35 digi cinema camera for US$8000
 

Don't want to sound too negative here but i'm kind of over the kineraw. It feels a little bit RED in that it's been months and there's no solid info, no release dates, nothing. People are going to have one of the othernoptionsmin their hands by the time we see a camera. And i'm not certain you'll see a Scarlet user sell up to buy a kineraw.

Re: S35 digi cinema camera for US$8000
 

Yeah, the problem is that this is looking a bit old hat given whats happened recently (Black Magic, Scarlet, C300, C500, 1DC, FS700, Digi Bolex etc). Ikonshop have also reduced their prices for a starter kit at under e10,000 (presumably in reaction to the BL and Bolex announcements) - the Ikonshop camera has a proven track record too.

Kineraw would want to release this soonish to have any impact. They can't afford to have Scarlet-esque delays. Anyone remember the Sparta RAW camera? No?

I started this thread back in August 2011, and joked that it would probably be available before Scarlet (which was still a pipe dream back then). So much has changed since then.

I reckon the Black Magic camera will be the one to watch in this race. Black Magic has a good reputation and a solid background in the field. The only thing the KineRaw has over it at this point is the preferred S35 sensor size. But the Black Magic price should tip the scales.

It will be interesting to see where Black Magic go from here; possibly a S35 or even 4K?

Re: S35 digi cinema camera for US$8000
 

Scott.

True, there are more fish in the pond now. However if they can stick with their projected pricing and have it work properly out of the box in both cineform and cinema DNG, there will be people very interested. The domestic market in its home country and nearby Asia may well help it along.

I would not be so sure about the Scarlett/Epic. There is a bit of a crisis of confidence going on over a dropped frame and audio sync issue with the latest build. No doubt it will be sorted soon enough but if the KineRAW standard S35 camera comes out of the blocks running, fully matured and not in beta, there will be people interested, even if it ends up being their backup camera.

Re: S35 digi cinema camera for US$8000
 

I'm getting the sample KineRAW-S35 (tm) ready for shooting some more sample footage, and for shooting the monitoring calibration DNG to base the camera's monitoring LUT on, those convert in the camera to 3D-LUT that fit several workflows including the use of Cineform (tm) with Quicktime (tm) and other Editing software etc. There is a tool in the Cineform (tm) program folder you drag the 3D-LUT into then the playback of the Cineform (tm) is color corrected.

I have sample uncompressed frames from KineRAW-S8p (tm) I can email from the E1 and F1 videos, if you want to see those you can email me with "DVinfo user wants E1 and F1 frames."

Sample Cineform (tm) files can be obtained by writing to Kinefinity.com (tm) if you want to see if your computer can play those, be sure to ask for the associated 3D-LUT to get the color to look right.

The shiny aluminum parts are the ones I made to use our Konvas matte box and lenses, and to attach the Mitchell follow focus, other filmmakers could do similar to use their existing parts, or if they like use anything they want to if they have the money to purchase new parts. Note the histogram in the EV screen photo, I an under 18% gray tick mark at ISO 1280, much of the noise and blur is from taking the photo not from the camera, I had to put the lens out of focus to avoid moire from the LCD then re-sharpen so I sharpened the camera noise form the snapshot camera I was using to take the photos with.

I attached a half size JPG of a sample frame shot using a M42 Soligar 35mm f/2 lens, you should email me for the full size TIF to see it better on a 2K monitor at 1:1 pixel resolution uncompressed.

Re: S35 digi cinema camera for US$8000
 

I have no problem with the speed of development of the KineRAW-S35 (tm) . It seems an entirely appropriate speed: not lagging behind.
I thank Dan Hudgins for his thorough posts; and I encourage both him and the Kineraw (tm) team. Kind regards.

Re: S35 digi cinema camera for US$8000
 

Thanks for the comments.

You can feel free to email Kinefinity.com (sm) at the email on their web site at any time to give them encouragement and to make suggestions as they are interested to here any concerns people may have about their products and support for various work-flows and lens mounts etc.

They have been making steady progress over the last several years on this camera project and are close to having the KineRAW-S35 (tm) get out of the lab. Some test cameras are already out in the field being used for firmware testing and build some test footage to share.

I hope to have some more CinemaDNG (tm) test footage to post on Vimeo, and to send the Cineform (tm) copy to them so they can post shots in Cineform (tm) raw for people to download and play with in their own work-flow. The S35 camera can shoot CinemaDNG (tm) for full uncompressed mode, or in compressed Cineform (tm) that is wavelet like RED (tm)'s REDCODE (tm), or it can shoot BOTH at the same time for using the Cineform (tm) as a proxy or just to get the DNG to archive for later use, which is what I will try to to so the Cineform (tm) can be shared while I work on grading the DNG using my "freeish" DI system.

The images that I have seem so far look quite good, and the EI/ISO range is from about 80 to 5120 so far, by using 288 degree shutter rather that 144 you in effect gain another T/ stop over shooting 35mm movie film so that gives an equivalent of ISO 10240 film, maybe.

Re: S35 digi cinema camera for US$8000
 

More sample Cineform (tm) footage from Kinefinity.com (sm).

You may post it on forum,

http://download.kinefinity.com/downl...001-099-A1.mov
http://download.kinefinity.com/downl...001-112-A1.mov
http://download.kinefinity.com/downl...001-121-A1.mov
http://download.kinefinity.com/downl...001-023-A1.mov
http://download.kinefinity.com/downl...001-028-A1.mov
http://download.kinefinity.com/downl...001-071-A1.mov
http://download.kinefinity.com/downl...001-094-A1.mov
http://download.kinefinity.com/download/XD48K04M.look

All these are cineform mov clips shot on KineRAW-S35, and need to install Cineform decoder on your PC or MAC to playback, Cineform Decoder download link:

Cineform « Neo Player Download

You need to install the *.look 3D-LUT into the Cineform (tm) codec AFTER you install it on your computer, there is a program in the Cineform (tm) tools folder that you drag and drop it onto then it says something like "one LUT loaded" maybe so you know its installed and then the color should look right in Quicktime (tm) when you play the clips.

The one's I shot are 2048x1080 so you need a 2K monitor to view them 1:1 pixel for best results. Click on the Cineform (tm) icon on the task-bar to select the playback quality, try maximum quality and sharpness to view as sharp lenses were used to make the clips I sent them for shared viewing.

Re: S35 digi cinema camera for US$8000
 

Kinefinity.com (tm) asked me to post some new links to the sample Cineform (tm) *.mov files and the 3D-LUT and decoder codec,

Quote:[ Here are more Cineform RAW clips shot on KineRAW-S35; we would like to
share with you.

http://download.kinefinity.com/downl...001-011-A1.mov
http://download.kinefinity.com/downl...001-099-A1.mov
http://download.kinefinity.com/downl...001-112-A1.mov
http://download.kinefinity.com/downl...001-121-A1.mov
http://download.kinefinity.com/downl...001-023-A1.mov
http://download.kinefinity.com/downl...001-028-A1.mov
http://download.kinefinity.com/downl...001-071-A1.mov
http://download.kinefinity.com/downl...001-094-A1.mov

When downloading the files, Attention that the server has limited
connections, so please download one file at one time.

Cineform Firstlight/Davinci Resolve/Speedgrade/Scratch could be used
for grading/rendering. May use the Cineform decoder
settings-->Demosaic Type-->advanced details to make image look
sharper.

Need to install Cineform decoder on your PC or MAC to playback,
Cineform Decoder download link:
http://cineform.com/gopro-cineform-decoder

]

You will also need to drag and drop the 3D-LUTs onto the Cineform (tm) LUT tool in the Cineform (tm) program folder,

http://download.kinefinity.com/download/XD48K04M.cube
http://download.kinefinity.com/download/XD48K04M.look

The 3D-LUT are mated to the ISO and K value used when shooting so need to be installed for the clips above to play with the right "one light" color correction, the look group used is intended for having the shots graded, so graded results would look better. Various monitoring LUT can be loaded into the camera and selected with the encoder knob from a quick button menu labeled "look", and depending on which "look" is selected the camera makes a corresponding 3D-LUT in each shot folder, in this case the same "look" was used for all my test shots so far, that are linked to above for those MOV files.

Dan Chung video interview on the KineRAW S35.
 

Dan Chung video interview on the KineRAW S35.

It is mentioned it will cost around 6,000 US.

Re: S35 digi cinema camera for US$8000
 

They plan on being at BIRTV 2012 again this year, you can email them to get the booth number maybe. They will be talking to people interested in purchase and bulk purchase and probably showing some of the many Cineform (tm) clips and uncompressed TIF files to interested people so if you are going to BIRTV 2012 be sure to look for their booth.

I have some uncompressed frames from the footage I have been shooting if you want to look at the 2048x1080 DCP size frames on your 2K monitor to see how the output of my free de-Bayer program looks so far (I'm using the unreleased v0.07 currently).

Re: S35 digi cinema camera for US$8000
 

Kinefinity.com (sm) have booth 2B222 at BIRTV 2012,

BIRTV2012

Quote: [The Must-Attend Industry Exhibition in Asia

BIRTV is China's most prestigious exhibition in the industry of radio,film and TV and a key part of China International Radio Film & Television Exposition.It is also the only one of such exhibitions which gains support from China government and is listed number one among the supported exhibitions in China's 12th Five Year's Developing Plan of Culture.]

They are also revising their web site now, the new web site will have sample images and footage you can download for compatibility testing with your own work-flow.

Here is a map showing the booth location,

http://www.birtv.com/upfiles/201208/2B0801.pdf

They will maybe have two bodies there to show and be able to answer questions in person.

Re: S35 digi cinema camera for US$8000
 

I will check out the camera there, and 1st time I was at BIRTV back in 1989 !!!
CHINA not yet has their Imaging technology from their old days use 3-Tubes / 3-CCDs / S35 CMOS in professional, broadcast and Digital Cinema Cameras.

CHINA used German / Japanese and now US 's xK camera etc.

Time for CHINA to team up with some Custom Sensor design teams to build more competitive Camera for the world. ;-)

Raw = uncompressed

Stewart Chong
Hong Kong
CHINA
Home Page
fb: stewart chong

Re: S35 digi cinema camera for US$8000
 

I got time to convert the KineRAW-S35 ™ 2048x1080 version of the video Alvin Somwaru helped shoot in Golden Gate Park into Letter-boxed MPEG4 1920x1080 for posting on Vimeo,





I used TEncoder ™ set to 12000 kbps and two pass compression for the conversion from the graded uncompressed AVI but there are still some compression artifacts that show up here and there, anyone have suggestions for a better free, or maybe not free, encoder for making H.264 video files that Vimeo will accept?

I was using just the MPEG4v2 option in VirtualDUB ™ but that is one pass and shows much worse compression artifacts. If you see the video as looking too light and washed out on your MAC notebook let me know about that, I may try to post another copy graded darker. It seems there is a bug in Quicktime ™ where it shows videos too light and washed out looking, under Media Player ™ on my Brother's PC with the CRT monitor set to 1920 resolution it looks OK as far as brightness. Viewing on a LCD or HD monitor it may look like the highlights are burned out and the shadows too dark since I encoded it full range for PC viewing.

If you follow the link for Alvin Somwaru from my Vimeo page for the video above, you can see some more footage on his Vimeo page he processed from Cineform ™ clips shot in the KineRAW-S35 ™ that I have not had time to grade and letterbox yet for posting on my Vimeo page...

Re: S35 digi cinema camera for US$8000
 

The samples looks very filmic! Maybe you can tell us something about situation with KineRAW-S35 model? After first announcement there is no more any info about it.

Re: S35 digi cinema camera for US$8000
 

KineRAW (tm) cameras to be shown at booth C12813 at NAB 2013 in Las Vegas

==

Got word from Kinefinity.com (sm) that they will be going to NAB 2013 in Las Vegas (in April),

2013 NAB Show: Digital Media Industry Event for Video, Audio, Film & Communications Professionals.

Quote: [Our booth number in this coming NAB is C12813.]

So if you have wanted some 'hands on' time with their cameras, this will be the first time they are showing them outside China as far as I know.

I've been shooting some additional test footage with both the KineRAW-S35 (tm) and the prototype KineRAW-S8p (tm) and may post that on my Vimeo page when I get it edited together. They are working on a demo reel for showing at NAB 2013, so if you have any suggestions of shots you would like to see you can email them and ask them to have one of their field testers shoot something like what you would like to see maybe so that when you go to NAB 2013 you can see how it turned out. They said they will have cameras there you can look over, and maybe the KineRAW-S35-mini (tm) they are still working on, its a smaller version with the same high quality 100% true RAW DNG recording and S35 sensor with sub-PL mount for using a wide range of movie and still lenses, as I understand it, you can email them for detailed specs if you are interested.

Also the MSRP and shipping should be lower for the KineRAW-S35-mini (tm). So jot down booth C12813 if your going to NAB this year and say high, they have been developing these cameras for many years, and the larger KineRAW-S35 (tm) has been in field testing in China (in addition to the one I got to do calibrations in the monitoring with). They said they are very busy putting cameras together to ship out, so, so far things seem to be going well for them.

==

You cannot judge the quality of the images from the KineRAW-S35 ™ based on looking at some H.264 version, the raw data holds so much detail that some skill is required to blunt it enough to get compressed versions, using Cineform ™ YUV is a much better option for PC playback.

Re: S35 digi cinema camera for US$8000
 

Dan, have you got your hands on the new Mini? Would really know how it feels and how it's operates.

Re: S35 digi cinema camera for US$8000
 

I was able to see the KineRAW-S35 (tm) "Mini" (projected MSRP about $3000) at NAB 2013, in fact they worked on it in the hotel room between the first and second days of the trade show, and just got it working.

The user interface at that time was not fully ported to the new controls, it just has a few buttons and an encoder dial that tilts like a joy-stick as well so its like a one hand universal control for navigating the menus on-screen.

I was able to try a 25mm f/2.3 Baltar in Mitchell NC mount on it in a Mitchell NC to sub-PL (KineMount (tm)) on it because the sub-PL adapter is very close to the sensor plane so you can adapt just about any lens to work on the camera.

The on screen displays and viewfinder zoom options looked like the larger S35 and the Super8 version I was testing before, because the firmware is related, so you get live on screen waveform monitor as well as histograms in both raw sensor levels and levels shown through the monitoring LUT, in KineLOG, KineCOLOR, and Kine709 etc.

They tell me they have advanced pre-orders in China and hope to ship many units sometime in the next two months. They have the larger KineRAW-S35 (tm) already shipping in China and many people at NAB 2013 said they were interested in purchasing both models, as well as some interest from companies that would like to be sales reps around the world.

If you have questions you can look at their web site,

kineraw web site

And email them, although a few people have told me they did not reply right away to their emails, maybe because the are busy and are waiting to answer some questions when they have the distribution worked out in detail. I'm working on another video to post to my Vimeo page, and have some more lens tests to shoot for the Super8 model. We were talking about the revised Super8 model and how it can share some of the hardware they developed for the S35 mini to reduce development costs and speed deliveries, and part of that is developing technology using a mechanical shutter to get jell-o and skew free results while still using a low cost CMOS sensor that may work up to 3K resolution, so that is on-going development.