Re: Scarlet At $10K
 

Well, I've seen the F3 shot with a Gemini (which was still in beta) and it's s-t-u-n-n-i-n-g.

On the other hand I'm very uninmpressed with Laforet's video with the C300. Compare it to other videos also in Vimeo, shot with th F3+SLog, so that you get apples to apples. On Laforet's video I see plenty of noise in the shadows in high contrst scenes, awfully clipped highlights and oh-no 709 video-look due to a more compressed latitude. And Laforet had plenty of money and a $1.5k/hr colorist, while the F3 videos have been done by a couple of guys alone.


If I was to shoot a film, even an independent €1M one (which I would not do, as it's easier to win the lottery than to get proper distribution), I'd use none of the above but an ALEXA with a Codex recorder. The cost of this is under €2k per day, times 3 per week, which means it would cost less than €25k to rent it for the entire film. That's peanuts compared to everything else, so I don't see how would anything use anything below such a great, simple and reliable setup that the ALEXA with the smaller Codex brings.

Re: Scarlet At $10K
 

No doubt, the F3 follows the tradition of other great CineAlta cameras, from the F950 to the EX1.

I am going off my friend who was watching a bunch of C300 footage at the presentation. Most audiences aren't going to stop watching a movie to check for video noise, etc., but we do. Then again, if I'm paying that much money for a camera, I'd hope I wouldn't ever notice that stuff.

I'm cautiously optimistic that RED will get the Scarlet out on time, and even more excited to see some footage!

heath

Re: Scarlet At $10K
 

I'm pretty happy, as an underwater shooter it looks like it is in the same body as Epic, hence I will have a housing that can cover both. If I need high frame rates I can hire an Epic, Scarlet X works out cheaper than an F3 with all necessary capture equipment. Use an Atmos Samurai for Prores capture for quick turnaround jobs. Use my Canon glass plus have a PL mount when I work on high end jobs.

Do I need 5K, probably not, higher frame rates... possibly sometimes.

SSD's can be swapped between Epic and Scarlet, Redmote works with both plus all accessories and batts. I'm a happy camper.

Re: Scarlet At $10K
 

Wow. The natives are restless. Those who have been waiting three and a half years for a 2/3" camera for $3k, then an expected $6k, and now no 2/3 camera at all are not happy. Lock the windows on the upper stories.

Jim has recently written that 2/3" and 3K were not enough. He wrote that the 8x lens had terminal problems. And nobody is less happy about that than him. He's the guy who spent all the R&D money on the 8x lens that didn't pan out.

Neither the Scarlet-X or the C300 are the right camera for budget shooters. The 5D2 with anti-aliasing filter might be the best quality, budget, large sensor solution. The 1D-X might be the best choice come March. And then there's the mystery DSLR and the next generation 5D, 7D and all the rest.

But for the event shooter, there's still a 2/3" or S16 opportunity. Or maybe 4/3" is the new S16.

Even if the recent announcements don't fill the needs of budget shooters, there is no better time to make budget digital films than today.

Re: Scarlet At $10K
 

The option for the 2/3" 3k camera is still open for RED, they've done the R & D, although the 8x fixed zoom currently seems to have problems maintaining focus while zooming.

Unfortunately, Jim Jannard seems to have got rather obsessed by 4k, rather than the real world of 1080p distribution, which is where most of the productions shot on his 4k cameras will actaully end up.

Although, no reason why they shouldn't do a 2/3" 4k camera. That was an option that the Kinetta camera was following, unfortunately, the downside to keep following a new greater version is the camera never gets manufactured.

Re: Scarlet At $10K
 

They could always buy an Ikonoskop.

Re: Scarlet At $10K
 

In reality it's the SI 2K, which seems to have found a niche in 3D films. However, it's rather more expensive camera than the 2/3" Scarlet and perhaps now due for an upgrade.

Although, I've just been reminded that you can window the new Scarlet at 2k, which gives a slightly less than Super 16 size image.

Re: Scarlet At $10K
 

Scarlet is a beautiful camera, really, i mean 4K for $15,000!

I don't see any reason why a production that can afford to use this camera would not use this camera.

none!

Re: Scarlet At $10K
 

Not all productions want to use a RAW workflow, The Alexa has been a popular choice for TV productions using ProRES and even HDCAM SR rather than RAW.

How reliable the new camera is also remains to be seen. There are a number of factors to be considered when selecting a camera.

Re: Scarlet At $10K
 

I'm imagining a lot of Scarlet production will be done at ProRes 4:2:2 as well through external recorders.

Re: Scarlet At $10K
 

I expect many productions will take up the ProRes option, those external recorders are getting cheaper.

Re: Scarlet At $10K
 

I think it was a great move for RED.

I placed an order and look forward to it making my business good money in 2012.

Re: Scarlet At $10K
 

I've had an Epic and Red MX crash and overheat on me durIng several shoots. Very embarassing to me. Even though im still a Red fanatic, my faith in Red is lessened.

Best,
Greg

Re: Scarlet At $10K
 

to me it was the most important part of the deal, I've spend a lot of time playing with R3Ds- love that post production freedom;
I've been waiting for that camera for three years, I didn't get exactly what I've been waiting for, but no doubt Scarlet X is a very good deal, well, at least I'd love to think that way,
mine should start shipping Nov 17, as soon as I'll get it will post comparison to all cameras I have 1D, 5D, EX1 and maybe even G10 :))))
I'm excited

Re: Scarlet At $10K
 

The post route is a decision made for each production. Many productions have little or no grading work done on them and that includes broadcast television.

I had a conversion with one cameraman regarding the 2/3" Scarlet for use on documentary programmes and he made the point that you wouldn't let some producers anywhere near RAW. Basically, they just wouldn't get it.

Re: Scarlet At $10K
 

Yeah, for fast turnaround TV production, the heck with 4K and RAW. Consider all of NBC's Thursday night comedies. Not a one of them needs more than a basic scene matching grade.

But for documentaries, I liked the idea of 2/3" RAW. Focus wasn't perfect? No big deal. You grabbed the camera, set a close-enough exposure and didn't have time to set the color balance? It might be a bit noisy or blown out, but you got the shot and the colors look natural. You shot indoors, outdoors, and under every kind of light imaginable? No big deal, you can match your shots in post.

It's not that documentaries need extreme grading; it's that the material might be all over the place and you don't always have time to get it perfect. Often you don't know the story until after it's shot, so setting a fixed in-camera look might not be the best approach. (A doc about a celebrity honeymoon might change if the next morning, a dead body appears... Don't get any ideas, folks!)

I'm more of an S35 narrative guy, but I can really appreciate the disappointment that many feel about there being no 2/3" announcement this month. There's still a need for a 2/3" digital cinema cam.

Re: Scarlet At $10K
 

I think it's more difficult to hold consistency with the LCDs you get on the cheaper cameras. With the higher end 2/3" cameras you can set up the V/F correctly and set the exposure manually quickly by eye. As one documentary cameraman I know put it "you set the exposure for what looks good".

Re: Scarlet At $10K
 

How do you know when yours is shipping?

Re: Scarlet At $10K
 

Just to verify, Scarlet is S35, not 2/3-inch, correct?

Heath

Re: Scarlet At $10K
 

Correct -- it is the same size sensor as Epic X (in fact, they are factory seconds from the Epic X line).

Re: Scarlet At $10K
 

Thanks for the clarification, Chris.

heath

Re: Scarlet At $10K
 

it's on the red site, AI Canon mount strat shipping Dec1, TI Canon mount start shipping Nov 17,
but with red everything is subject to change,
i guess :)

Re: Scarlet At $10K
 

I won't believe it until people start receiving their RED Scarlets. Because anything can and HAS changed since NAB 2008.

Heath

Re: Scarlet At $10K
 

Yes, RED start shipping on a certain date, but that doesn't mean they don't have a back log of orders. There are a number of products that RED have been shipping for a while, but people are still waiting to receive the item they've ordered.

So, you won't know your camera is shipping until RED confirm it's ready and want the balance of the payment.

Re: Scarlet At $10K
 

oh yeah, that's why I say start shipment,
my rep told me Xmas at best

Re: Scarlet At $10K
 

Here's my guess...
There was probably 1000-10,000 Scarlets ordered Nov 3rd I'd be surprised if Red could deliver more than 500 a month. I think when the Red One went out they were delivering 100/month (thats 2nd hand info though). I'm expecting to see mine (and I ordered it FAST) in March-May, and I'd be pretty damn happy if that was the case. If you ordered a day or two later...

Re: Scarlet At $10K
 

Yep Scarlet looks like a decent deal, cool camera.
But I'm one of "those doc guys" that wants a pro-grade (ideally 10bit) 2/3 camera for around $5k, or less if possible.
There's already the F3 which is a good super35 cam in the $10-15k range, and there are decent $5k super35 cams with the AF100 and FS100.

But 2/3 or 16mm would be great for narrative filmmakers on a budget and documentary people. Just to get a decent parfocal zoom lens in the 2/3 or 16mm size is a lot easier to build, buy, and focus.

Still waiting for that. Now we have all these cool super35 cams but to get a decent modern 2/3 cam costs what, $18k?

I'd rather spend $4k on the body and $6k on a decent 16mm zoom then $12k on the body and then be stuck with primes because all the super35 zooms don't have much range and are crazy expensive.

The Ikonoskop RAW DII looks cool.. just wish it was half the price and came packaged with a 8x zoom like they were trying to do with the original 2/3. That Red 2/3 cam would have actually shaked things up... hope it still happens.

Re: Scarlet At $10K
 

Chris,

I agree with your voice of reason. They would have had me at 2/3".

Re: Scarlet At $10K
 

I think people would have been disappointed with low light performance at 2/3". I find 4/3 a nice compromise, I hope Panasonic continues with that size.

Re: Scarlet At $10K
 

There's no question that the documentary community suffered when the 2/3 Scarlet product got the axe. Many would like an inexpensive alternative to shooting Super 16. Four thirds is nice (very nice), but there's a lot of S16 and 2/3" glass out there that begs to be used with a modern digital solution.

Hopefully, RED is aware of this market and fills the need - but more quietly than they did during the Scarlet saga.

Re: Scarlet At $10K
 

I agree, 2/3" was going to be a win for me too. I gave up on Scarlet earlier this year as it just seemed like things were being held up for a reason. Now we know that reason.

The 2/3" chip broadcast market is such a core market for the larger companies that I do not hold out much hope for an inexpensive 2/3" camera. Red gave an opportunity as it is outside of this circle but I do not see this product from them any time in the near future.

All of these large chips flying around and all we want is 2/3" ! Seems like it would be easy to deliver but there is more involved.

Re: Scarlet At $10K
 

RED were pushing how well the 2/3" looked at low light levels during demos at the various trade shows. How satisfied some people would be in reality is another matter, given the black cat in a dark coal cellar ISO's now available on the 35mm sensor cameras from Sony and Canon. In the end it really depends on the type of subject matter you film.

Re: Scarlet At $10K
 

Considering how the F3 and probably the C300 are considerably better than Epic in low light I don't see how S35 Scarlet and especially the now defunct 2/3 Scarlet could be considered good under those conditions.
It's ironic but Scarlet may bring in users who are more publicly critical of some of the Red shortcomings. Red needs to get past the teething stage with the reliability of its cameras as a larger market with direct Japanese competitors won't be as forgiving as most of the current fan club.
For all the hoopla for Red specs the actual sensor performance/sophistication doesn't look particularly good compared to what Sony and now Canon do with their CMOS expertise.

Re: Scarlet At $10K
 

There's a 3k 2/3" market out there, with quite a few high quality 16mm and Super 16 lenses out there to be used on productions. I suspect the price of these will have dropped a bit now that the 2/3" scarlet has been put on the back burner, at least for a while or until someone comes up with one.

All the current 2/3" single sensor cameras are 2k, which probably don't get the best for 1080p in resolution terms, but do still gather attention and are working on a number of films.

It's nice to have the option of the extreme ISOs, but practise as long as it's pretty clean at say 3,000 that will cover most productions.

Re: Scarlet At $10K
 

Much of the 2/3" market is for live applications where one must balance low light performance with the ability to hit critical focus with an EVF. For live capture, whether it's studio news, ENG, sports, or events, it's a 1080 market, rather than a 4K market. RAW isn't helpful for live shoots in the moment. For RED to be successful in this segment, it needs to compete on live production features in the studio and for ENG-style shooting. Those requirements don't necessarily match the current EPIC modular approach.

3K isn't exactly right either. Frankly, Canon's C300 nailed it. With a true qHD sensor, one can simply read out the pixels for 1080 16x9. De-Bayer it and you can record 4K when needed.

There is certainly a 2/3" professional market. But Scarlet was originally designed for budget narrative shooters (and soccer moms). To be successful in 2/3", RED needs to focus on the traditional 2/3" market needs first with 4K, fast frame rates, RAW, and HDR as secondary features that happen to expand their reach to the filmmaker who wants a shallow DOF look.

Re: Scarlet At $10K
 

I don't think soccer moms ever entered the equation other than as a good one liner. Much of the demand for 2/3" Scarlet seems to be as a 16mm film replacement, for those more personal pieces where the control of RAW can work, The live studio and ENG is well covered and doesn't really need or have the time for that level of post involvement.

What has been shown on the REDUser threads on the Scarlet is that not everyone wants a shallow DOF effect. This works with some stories, but not others, plus the increased risk of out of focus shots when filming fast moving subjects.

The fixed zoom Scarlet did offer a lot to those documentaries that in recent years have been shot on 1/3" cameras, often because the budgets didn't allow the use of more expensive cameras. I gather there was problems maintaining the focus as it zoomed, so there appears to be some more development required. Although, RED seemed to always be upbeat about this lens until after the new Scarlet was announced.

Re: Scarlet At $10K
 

Personally I would welcome the 2/3" Scarlet with fixed lens. Frankly, I was waiting exactly for this, but at certain point it became obvious, that it is not going to happen. Which is a pity. As much as RED ONE was a disruptive technology, I fail to see current Scarlet as such. It is of course natural to try to increase one's yield by utilising chips that fall outside of spec, CPU companies do it all the time. But it's hardly a breakthrough in any way. A good analogy would be Intel i7 = EPIC, and i3 = Scarlet.

I think comparing 2/3" to new Canon or Epic is like comparing apples and oranges. I won't take C300 for a three weeks trip to Siberia, I won't take it to do ENG work or documentary about sport or martial arts events. Shallow DOF is not something you always want, and like other people said - there is a market for good, inexpensive 2/3" replacement of Super 16mm. To have a 2/3" sensor at 120 fps with HDR would be amazing, even if it only recorded 2K, and didn't have superb low-light peformance of 4/3".

There was a possibility to fill in that gap, but it looks like it's not going to happen, with RED being flooded with orders for their cameras. Perhaps other companies will step up, but I'm not holding my breath.

Re: Scarlet At $10K
 

Thanks to everyone for their input.

Please continue the discussion at RED's official forum:

Reduser.net :: The online Community for digital filmmaking

Much appreciated,