Re: Canon USA introduces EOS-1D C Digital SLR camera featuring 4K
 

For a moment there I was beginning to sweat it. Having decided a fortnight ago to jump from the mark II to 5D3 to practically eliminate moire and aliasing, I thought I'd jumped too soon before the 1D C announcement.

Fortunately I can breathe again knowing not only is the 15K price tag out of my price range, it seems the camera won't be capable of producing 25fps footage for the European Market either. A non-starter.

The 5D3 is still not perfect for me, I really need 1080p/60fps minimum and I was shocked not to see it on the mark III. Canon are testing my loyalty right now!

From reading this entire thread, it appears a lot of people are getting rather impatient with Canon. Can't say I blame them.

I was one of those little folk swept up off my feet into their wonderful 5D mark II revolution. Although that was a game changer for me, it's a shame their little accident that recruited an army lacks the leadership to take the movement forward.

[EDIT:] A friend saw this post and sent an SMS, 'Did you not see the FS700 announcement?' ... Actually, I hadn't as I've been working flat out on a shoot all week and had only been keeping my eyes open for the NAB announcement on Canon's 4K DSLR. Now that I have, I think you know what I'm going to be saving up for until end of June. My only regret is buying the 5D3 too quickly afterall...

Re: Canon USA introduces EOS-1D C Digital SLR camera featuring 4K
 

i've been waiting for a replacement for mk2 for months.... end up i got a used FS100 for couple hundreds more... i am happy with it. Can't wait til the C100 announcement... and i think canon won't sell it cheap

Re: Canon USA introduces EOS-1D C Digital SLR camera featuring 4K
 

Don't get me wrong, I fell in love with my 5d mkII the first time I held it. It changed how I shoot and lit a fire in me that still has not gone out.

I also think this announcement is what the Nov 3 2011 announcement should have been. The specs on both the cameras look interesting, but here is my problem. They are just off the mark(price) ever since the C300. I mean why would I spend that $15 grand on the 1D-C for 4K 24fps when I could drop that into a Scarlet and get 4k at 24 - 30fps, not to mention shooting in RAW and on top of that I get HDRx.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to preach Red here, and the Scarlet has it's own hurtles to jump, media is expensive as hell, and the batteries are not the best. I chose a Scarlet over the C300, but Canon you really have forgotten about the market and the people that really kicked off the DSLR movement for you. Stop dreaming about Hollywood and come back to us.

Re: Canon USA introduces EOS-1D C Digital SLR camera featuring 4K
 

Just one question:
why does everyone seem to interpret "Full HD 1920 x 1080 video at selectable frame
rates from 24p to 60p" as "you can only chose between 24 or 60fps?

I interpreted it as "you can chose framerates that lie between 24fps and 60fps".
Did I miss something?
Or is Canon silly enough to make the framerate mistake again? :-p

Re: Canon USA introduces EOS-1D C Digital SLR camera featuring 4K
 

here is a link to canons take on digital cinema options (C300 C500 EOS 1D C)

Canon Cinema EOS | Products: Cameras

Re: Canon USA introduces EOS-1D C Digital SLR camera featuring 4K
 

Actually this response seems more 'Twilight Zone' to me. First off, punching in to the center of the shot isn't likely to work very well unless your subject is perfectly centered, which isn't usually the case for me, and wouldn't work at all in situations like cutting from a wide two shot to a cu of one person. Whereas in post you can completely reframe each shot with a 4k source based on what was appropriate for the particular shot.

But that aside, you're saying that as you shoot an interview you can consistently predict when you'll need to cut to a different angle? Frankly, that's amazing to me, and we clearly work differently. When I shoot an interview I usually cut most of it out in post. When I need to cut in the middle of a shot, and I either don't have or it's inappropriate to cut away to b-roll to cover it I'll often cut to the other angle rather than have a jump cut. I may be wrong in assuming anyone else works that way, but personally I can't imagine how I would predict exactly when those cuts would happen ahead of time, on the fly, during the shoot, every time.

Honestly, this is the real reason for my original post. There seems to be a common attitude recently when discussing many of these new cameras that if it doesn't fit into one's particular workflow or needs then the manufacturer is crazy for releasing that particular camera at all. I'd venture there are more ways of working in the video world now than there ever were, and we've got an incredibly diverse range of cameras to meet any one of those. Almost your entire post is dedicated to explaining why anyone who thinks differently than you is wrong. I get it - the DSLR form factor doesn't work for you. There are plenty of other cameras to chose from, and you've clearly found ones that do work for you - but that has nothing to do with what anyone else might choose, it doesn't mean that their choice is any less valid than your own, and it certainly doesn't mean there's no use for a 4k DSLR if you're not delivering in 4k today.

Re: Canon USA introduces EOS-1D C Digital SLR camera featuring 4K
 

I agree. I originally ASSUMED this was just an oversight in the marketing blurb but I've just seen an Engadget video taken at NAB of the camera where near the end they show the LCD with "all" the frame options displayed. Clear as day, 25p is not on the list. Canon must be bonkers! I'm sure the DvInfo crew attending NAB will quiz them on this!

Re: Canon USA introduces EOS-1D C Digital SLR camera featuring 4K
 

I know on a 550D you need to switch the camera to Pal in order to use 25P this is done in a separate menu to the rest of the frame rate options. Perhaps there is Pal/NTSC buried deep in the menus?

Re: Canon USA introduces EOS-1D C Digital SLR camera featuring 4K
 

Good thought Sam. Hope you're right!

Re: Canon USA introduces EOS-1D C Digital SLR camera featuring 4K
 

The EOS-1D C does not allow you to change it via the internal Menu. The specs detail that it has Pal 25P in all the lower resolutions except the highest 4K which is ONLY 24fps.

It details all the Pal options, yet nothing for the highest video resolution. Very strange for Canon to do this...unless the spec-sheets are incorrect.

Canon official details NO 25P:

http://cpn.canon-europe.com/content/...c_explained.do

Almost 80% of the world use 25P (and Secam), including Bollywood in India (which is bigger than Hollywood in films produced), Australia, South Africa, Europe etc...

Latest news update from those lucky enough to handle the EOS-1D C is that you definitely need to drop to 2K to use 25P.

Re: Canon USA introduces EOS-1D C Digital SLR camera featuring 4K
 

Why are you so surprised? This whole EOS-C evolution is driven by Canon USA, their engineers and American cinematographers, etc. Not wanting to generalise, but USA folk can be quite insular sometimes... "The World" is often seen as just USA only.

Reminds me of the 'international' (sic) competition ran by Canon USA and Vimeo a couple of years back, "The Story Beyond The Still" which was... Open to US residents only!

It's a crying shame. Look at who Sony recruited to tell their engineers what developments they wanted to see out of the FS700... An international team of cinematographers consulted. You really need that input to engineer something for international use. What did we get? 50/60Hz switchable, etc...

You gather a group of American DoPs, engineers together to brainstorm the developments required for the next upgrade, you're hardly going to get one of them standing up saying, "We'll need 25fps in there too for our British counterparts!"

Re: Canon USA introduces EOS-1D C Digital SLR camera featuring 4K
 

Off topic. Kris, if your anywhere near the runway at Gatwick a Virgin plane has just made an emergency landing there - evacuation with chutes deployed etc. No word yet on any details yet. Hope all got off OK (these things usually result in the odd broken leg).

Re: Canon USA introduces EOS-1D C Digital SLR camera featuring 4K
 

I can imagine someone standing up in the Houses of Parliament, shouting "Here, here!" :)

Re: Canon USA introduces EOS-1D C Digital SLR camera featuring 4K
 

Can't believe I'm reading this "nationalistic" stuff. Is it really necessary, Kris? Jesus, haven't we learnt yet, take away the accent and the address and we're all the same.

Re: Canon USA introduces EOS-1D C Digital SLR camera featuring 4K
 

Except for frame rates.

Re: Canon USA introduces EOS-1D C Digital SLR camera featuring 4K
 

Is the lack of 25p such a deal breaker or is it just an inconvenience? The difference between 24p & 25p is only 4% & for years we in PAL-land have been viewing 24fps Hollywood movies on DVD speeded up 4% & nobody noticed. I could understand if the camera only had the old NTSC 30/29.97 rate then it would be a really big issue. The only real problem that I can see is if you wanted to intercut footage of the same scene shot simultaneously with other cameras that only shot 25p (e.g. a PAL Canon XF305 without the $400 24p/30p firmware upgrade).

Re: Canon USA introduces EOS-1D C Digital SLR camera featuring 4K
 

I was wondering who it was who decided on an ugly box covered in innumerable little buttons
Evidently that is exactly what they did with the C300/C500. Previous Canon camcorders were not world cameras by default but either PAL or NTSC (or HD equivalent) e.g. to upgrade a PAL XF305 to shoot 24p/30p costs around $400 & similarly to upgrade an NTSC XF305 to shoot 25p.

Re: Canon USA introduces EOS-1D C Digital SLR camera featuring 4K
 

I like the EOS 1D C for some unaccountable reason.

The codec is easy to manipulate with either still image processing tools, or even homebrew code. (Reading JPEG files is straightforward.) It writes onto commonly available media. And it's a compact device. In fact I've got a couple of ideas where this would fit really well.

I'd be interested to know what the bit rate is, and does it suffer from rolling shutter.

As for the 25 fps thing, I wouldn't be surprised if that turns up in a firmware update. It doesn't significantly more bandwidth than 24 fps, so I doubt that the camera's hardware is the limiting factor.

Re: Canon USA introduces EOS-1D C Digital SLR camera featuring 4K
 

This reasoning reminds me a bit of the early 90s when quite a few were perplexed to why we started developing tools for 24bit/96kHz audio. Their argument back then was that the 24/96 was just a fad "since no one could possibly hear the difference between it and the established 16/48 standard". I.e., not realizing how useful such dense & linear material would be in post processing. The same goes for video shot in 4K -- in post you'll have more leverage to crop, zoom and tweak it beyond any regular HD footage -- no matter if its final destination is "only" 1080p.

-- peer

Re: Canon USA introduces EOS-1D C Digital SLR camera featuring 4K
 

Yes Peer, but just like then, people can't hear the difference between 44k, 48k, or 96k. As a producer I've been involved in a number of blind tests like this comparing the highest spec audio gear, preamps etc.

David's point is still the most relevant. For the vast majority of people buying any and all of the cameras and post gear we're discussing, the end result of their work will be shown at significantly lower res than 1080p let alone 4k, either regional, local TV, and more and more web distribution.

Not that deeper color space and bit depth aren't important - they are. When I produce a project there's a good chance it will be broadcast in HD, SD, on web and shown on large screens at events.

That's where a camera like the BM looks promising with great latitude and color space. 4k has real value, but in the list of priorities to 95% of the camera market it's just a gimmick right now simply because the work that they're producing and distributing will not benefit from it in a practical space.

We do a ton of post and grading and pro res 4:2:2 does everything anyone needs for anything from broadcast down.

Re: Canon USA introduces EOS-1D C Digital SLR camera featuring 4K
 

Yes Jim, but just like then, this isn't the issue at hand. Nor was this the reason why 24bit/96k was developed -- it's for signal processing in POST.

For example, any FFT process (phase vocoders, convolution, etc.) require high bit & sample rates in order to stay within an acceptable fidelity -- no matter if the final destination is only 16bit/48k.

Just like high quality slow-motion needs to be shot with high frame rates (and/or with high shutter speed for post processing in Twixtor, etc.) -- no matter if the final destination is only 24 or 30p.

Hence, it depends on what the initial recording will be used for. If it has to go through post signal processing, yes then you'll definitely hear the difference. But if you just gonna listen to it straight out as recorded, you'll most likely not hear any difference between 96k/24bit and 48k/16bit (or even 44.1).

So again, this is the reason why I'm in the market for a 4K camera -- I tend to spend most of my time in post, and therefore love to have that extra wiggle room, whether it's for audio or video.

-- peer

Re: Canon USA introduces EOS-1D C Digital SLR camera featuring 4K
 

<<Just like high quality slow-motion needs to be shot with high frame rates (and/or with high shutter speed for post processing in Twixtor, etc.) -- no matter if the final destination is only 24 or 30p.

Hence, it depends on what the initial recording will be used for. If it has to go through post signal processing, yes then you'll definitely hear the difference. But if you just gonna listen to it straight out as recorded, you'll most likely not hear any difference between 96k/24bit and 48k/16bit (or even 44.1). >>

I definitely understand why you'd want 4k Peer, but these are two different points.

You need the extra frames to create quality slo-mo - it's the difference between useable and unusable footage but that's not the case for most situations with a quality codec and 1080p or 44k audio for post.

I've produced music for radio and TV for 25 years and rarely have used 96k sources mixing on large consoles and applying tons of EQ and effects and the results sound great - full broadcast quality.
These days virtually all radio is delivered as MP3.

Likewise, a Pro Res 4:2:2 signal is very robust and capable of the grading and finishing we do for film and broadcast.

4k is nice but it's not necessary for quality work for what the vast majority of people and their deliverables in the real world.

Re: Canon USA introduces EOS-1D C Digital SLR camera featuring 4K
 

I'm sure I had a thread about the 1DC and Shane Hurlbut and his idea that it 'crushes' the Alexa & Epic....or perhaps I just dreamt it (or I'm juggling too many forums)!

Anyone see that?

Re: Canon USA introduces EOS-1D C Digital SLR camera featuring 4K
 

I think that thread was crushed as well.

Re: Canon USA introduces EOS-1D C Digital SLR camera featuring 4K
 

It's temporarily out of public view while I clean it up. Too many
personal attacks and other other garbage. It'll be restored shortly.

Re: Canon USA introduces EOS-1D C Digital SLR camera featuring 4K
 

Why would Canon leave out zebra and peaking on the 1D C? That's just plain bizarre. Is that understood to be an intended omission, or might it just be a limitation of the pre-release firmware? As an intended omission, I cannot fathom the reasoning except that perhaps Canon's marketing department felt the need to deliberately sour the thing. Hmmm. :-/

Re: Canon USA introduces EOS-1D C Digital SLR camera featuring 4K
 

'cause it's being made by the still division.....they're still behind the curve in video......my guess.

Jim Martin
Filmtools.com

Re: Canon USA introduces EOS-1D C Digital SLR camera featuring 4K
 

great explanation!

since i started recording and mixing at 96k, everything sits much better in the mix and it seems stacking a lot of things doesn't build up the unwanted sludge. much cleaner, tighter results which then translate better when heard at lower resolutions on various systems.

i would never record again at a lower resolution! just like i would never shoot jpegs instead of RAW for photography, even though jpegs are my delivery format.

though the cost and workflow for RAW 4k scares me, i would love to be working at the highest possible quality- even if i was just uploading to youtube!

Re: Canon USA introduces EOS-1D C Digital SLR camera featuring 4K
 

Here here, Dave.
You will never do wildlife weddings sports events with a DSLR. Put a big zoom on it & try & freestanding, no tripod & film an animal at distance. Impossible. Need a shoulder mount camera. Canon, please divorce the Video & Stills departments & make a real shoulder mount Video camera again with interchangeable lens please.
Pete Constable

Re: Canon USA introduces EOS-1D C Digital SLR camera featuring 4K
 

Pete, I've regularly shot weddings, sports and events on DSLR's, as have many others. To me, shooting surfing, a shoulder-mounted camera useless. So, as you can see it all comes down to personal requirements and opinions. For some, the DSLR form factor is a great thing. For others, it is the scourge of the Earth. Either way, it is never particularly wise to tell other people what they would "never do"!

Re: Canon USA introduces EOS-1D C Digital SLR camera featuring 4K
 

Quite right, John -- the fact is that DSLR is very popular right now for weddings.

Re: Canon USA introduces EOS-1D C Digital SLR camera featuring 4K
 

Almost all wildlife shooting is done from tripod anyway. DSLRs are perfectly fine on a tripod, especially with a flip screen or secondary monitor. Besides the fact that I can shoot much steadier with my 70-200mm IS lens on my DSLR than I can at a comparable focal length with a shoulder mount camera and no IS.

I've shot with both shoulder mount and DSLRs. I like the DSLR form factor for it's compact-size and it allows you to move into more positions than a shoulder mount does. The ergonomic challenges have more to do with lack of professional controls than it has to do with form factor. The C300 is an example of combining the best of both worlds.

Re: Canon USA introduces EOS-1D C Digital SLR camera featuring 4K
 

Agreed Chris. Also they will remain popular with those who master them.
IMO DSLRS strongest point is the way people behave when its being pointed at them.
The unobtrusive nature of a stripped down DSLR is perfect for events.
Tricky to use though :)

Re: Canon USA introduces EOS-1D C Digital SLR camera featuring 4K
 

Please Pete... Don't ever say what other should or shouldn't do with what camera. It is NOT aboute what camera you hold in your hand, it's about what you do WITH it.
I've been shooting professional with DSLRs for years and most of that is wildlife. All wildlife films is NOT about 2000 mm of a running lion. Some of my film would not have been done with a shoulder mount camer... They are hard to mount to a microscope, just saying...
DSLRs is not for everyone and not for every project, but a professional camera is not about how big or what ever... It about if you can get it done or not with the gear you can get your hands on.
If an iPhone and iMovie app is the only gear you got and you can get the job done, that the right camera for that situation. All cameras need some work-around.