Re: Aja has an $8,995 S35 4K camera, the Cion
 

The short film you found was shot shortly after NAB. We used the project as an opportunity to gather on-set operational information. During this particular shoot, there was only one color profile, one gamma profile and one exposure index value that was available to the filmmakers so they were quite limited. Both the picture and feature set has been improved upon significantly since this was shot.

I thought it was worthwhile to share these details.

Thanks,
Jon Thorn
Senior Product Manager
AJA Video Systems

Re: Aja has an $8,995 S35 4K camera, the Cion
 

Just my opinion here, but I reckon AJA have slipped up a bit here. I think they've missed a whole load of sales that they would have had if the Cion had shipped before September. At that time it was several thousands of £ cheaper than the competitor from Sony (the F5), while now it is several thousands of £ more (because the Sony has veiwfinder and battery / charger included) than the competitor from Sony (the FS7). Like it or not Sony have the established name in the industry with buyers and with the people who hire the buyers, so for people like AJA and Black Magic to compete they need to make something as good, but much cheaper. This is what they did at NAB and hence the buzz about the Cion. For the Cion to do well I reckon it need pricing at around $6,000 - this allows the buyer to spend around $2,000 on a viewfinder and battery / charger and come in around the same price as the Sony. Even at this price I'm pretty sure the vast majority of people would go for the FS7. That's my take on it, others may differ.
Steve

Re: Aja has an $8,995 S35 4K camera, the Cion
 

This will be a very long post in order to help answer some of the questions that have been posed by Steve Phillipps and others in the thread. Therefore, I apologize for the length of the post in advance.

Every product I have ever proposed or been involved with developing at AJA has been originated by asking myself the following three basic questions:
1) What tool could AJA create to help improve people's work?
2) What features do people want?
3) Can AJA build it?

I developed the idea for the first Apple ProRes tapeless video recorder, the AJA Ki Pro, in 2007. (That year is not a typo; because complex products take time to develop, it reached the marketplace in 2009.) The Ki Pro was a success because it allowed a diverse (and disparate) group of cameras in the marketplace to be connected to the device with a wide array of connection types (SDI, HDMI, component), it could record to a high-quality edit-ready codec instead of one of the myriad of codecs being offered by the traditional camera manufacturers at the time and it could get all of these cameras to the same format (SD or HD) via up/down or cross conversion. Following the success of the original Ki Pro, I was asked many, many times if AJA would ever consider building a camera.

Why were people asking AJA to build a camera? Primarily, people wanted a camera that could record to a post-production friendly codec like Apple ProRes. People also expressed an interest in seeing cameras with a wider array of connectivity: SDI, HDMI, timecode, balanced analog audio, etc., etc. During this time, many of the traditional camera manufacturers had begun to "tier" their offerings; sometimes cameras were stratified by little more than the connection types used on the cameras.

AJA had a significant portion of what people seemed to want - a popular edit-ready recording format and the ability to offer an array of connectivity - but we did not have at that time was experience with sensors or the mechanical components associated with an optical system. People continued to ask me, "Will you ever make a camera?"

In 2010, I made my first proposal at the company to produce a camera. In addition to a traditional market requirements document, I had also sourced a small camera head and so my "pitch" to others at the company involved showing that small camera head sitting directly in front of the Ki Pro. People were skeptical. Honestly, when you consider building a camera, you should be skeptical. Building a camera is not trivial; it requires a huge amount of time and a huge resource investment. I was asked to continue to develop the idea. So essentially I had answered the first question, "What tool could AJA create to help improve people's work?"… but I had a lot more work to do.

The second question, "What features do people want?", is always the "fun" question to answer if you are in product development. If you burden a product with too many features, you probably make the device too difficult to bring to the market in a timely fashion and you may "overshoot" what people really want. If you "overshoot", you will likely also unnecessarily burden your product with costs. Conversely, if you under-deliver on a feature set, you often aren't even considered a part of the conversation when products are being evaluated. I came from a camera background. I have a passion for cameras. I've toted around everything from massive 35mm camera rigs to tiny DV cameras. My heart though has always belonged to the 16mm and Super 16mm cameras that I learned to shoot on: ARRI SR I, II and III, Aaton LTR and XTR, Eclair NPR and ACL. Somehow, over the last decade or so, the traditional camera manufacturers decided that a certain "tier" of cameras should have a certain shape. That shape involved a "pony-tail" viewfinder and the notion that the camera needed to be held out in front of you without any help from your shoulder. The lens would also be fixed on such a design, not interchangeable. If you didn't like or want this, you'd be asked to pay more money to obtain some ergonomics. So I believed whatever camera AJA made needed to be ergonomic. To me, that meant it sat on your shoulder, not out in front of it. At the same time, it could not be what I sometimes refer to as "soul stealing"; if it was too heavy, whatever ergonomics that had been achieved would be a moot point.* It's like a "sports car"; if the curb weight is too high, all the power in the world won't improve a fundamental issue with the design. So, personally, I wanted a camera that was comparable to Super 35mm… but in a 16mm/Super 16mm form factor. Sometimes you do think about what you want while answering the basic questions… because you believe firmly that what you want is what others will also want.

What should the image look like? Now we enter the most nebulous part of a camera design… Some people talk a lot about a "film look." That is a very, very subjective term and it means something different to everyone. Having said this, most video cameras tend to feel too "cold" to me. Somewhere over the last few years it felt like everyone producing cameras had become afraid of the rich blacks, of the rich colors… things I felt were hallmarks of photochemically produced moving images. I was lucky enough to shoot film in the 1990s, during the rise of Kodak's Vision film stocks. So every time I looked at a sensor for evaluation, that was something that influenced me. I thought that "look" was missing in other digital video cameras that were being offered. Other looks will be possible to produce as well if this isn't something that interests you.

In closing, the CION camera wasn't produced to compete with the Sony PXW-FS7; it was made to answer the questions noted at the beginning of this post. It was made because it was something people were asking AJA to produce. Any comparison of the AJA CION to the newest Sony product - with our first effort at producing a camera - could honestly be taken as a compliment. The development and introduction of the CION pre-dates the introduction of the Sony PXW-FS7. The AJA CION is a "from the ground up" effort which is why it has taken us time to produce. The Sony PXW-FS7 of course calls on elements that have been developed by Sony over time and can be found in pre-existing products. While both cameras seem to share some similarities, they have many differences. From an included connectivity standpoint, the AJA CION has more in common with the Sony PMW-F55 than it does with the Sony PXW-FS7. To make the Sony PXW-FS7 connectivity closer to the AJA CION, you would need to add the optional XDCA-FS7 unit (roughly $2,000 USD) to the cost of the PXW-FS7. If you want a PL mount for the PXW-FS7, you'll need to source an adapter and factor that into the cost. In fairness, if you want the CION to be comparable to the PXW-FS7, you'll need to source a viewfinder of your choosing for it. (For the Sony PXW-FS7, my understanding is you will need to use the viewfinder specific to that model; the viewfinders designed for the PMW-F5/55 aren't apparently compatible.) These types of comparisons can go on at length. In the end, only you can decide which camera suits your needs. Everyone's needs differ. Everyone's tastes differ. I'm happy AJA will be able to offer you the CION soon.

Sincerely,
Jon Thorn
Senior Product Manager
AJA Video Systems

Re: Aja has an $8,995 S35 4K camera, the Cion
 

What a fantastic, informative post thank you Jon!

Re: Aja has an $8,995 S35 4K camera, the Cion
 

Although I truly enjoyed reading Jon's lengthy post, to me this camera now seems even more like vaporware. Most everything was covered in Jon's post (sans his childhood pet) but yet no shipping date. I'm too old for sale pitches like these (deja vu all over again, Bill Southworth, etc.). Sorry.

-- peer (would love to purchase this camera if it existed)

Re: Aja has an $8,995 S35 4K camera, the Cion
 

Jon-
Great post and maybe it will enlighten those who are not familiar with the process, time and effort in bringing a camera to market. We're excited here at EVS to sell this camera and, based on our customer inquiries, feel the camera is going to be a success......now we're just waiting to find out when we'll get our first batch!

Jim Martin
EVSonline.com

Re: Aja has an $8,995 S35 4K camera, the Cion
 

I'd rather they take their time and get it right. Too many companies give in to pressure and release things before they're ready.

Re: Aja has an $8,995 S35 4K camera, the Cion
 

Yes - but I likewise don't think it helps in the long term when companies announce product too far ahead of it actually being available. I suspect they do it in the hope that potential customers will wait for it and not purchase something else in the meantime - in practice it too often seems to backfire and just gives rise to "vapourware" speculation - as well as allowing their competitors more time to respond.

In this case I suspect AJA have lost out to Sony and the FS7 by too early an announcement - AJA announced months before, but it looks like the FS7 will be first to ship.

As far as Jons comments as such, then I'll agree with most of it in principle, but in particular what was music to my ears was "So I believed whatever camera AJA made needed to be ergonomic. To me, that meant it sat on your shoulder, not out in front of it." be nice is all manufacturers realised that!

Re: Aja has an $8,995 S35 4K camera, the Cion
 

Much appreciated, Jon! Now published on the front page:

Exclusive: AJA’s Jon Thorn answers questions about the Cion

Re: Aja has an $8,995 S35 4K camera, the Cion
 

Jon-
One thing that I've brought up with your reps regarding the CION.....you have the camera coming in PL mount only and that is going to be a problem...you have a great $9000 camera that you are forcing people to buy $5000 lenses. At NAB, your sales force was pitching the 3rd party PL to EF adapters as a way to use EF glass. The problem is the adapters don't work 100%...none of them get far focus because of the flange focal distance issue. Have you guys looked at offering the camera in EF?...or are you working on a better work around or a neutral mount that can include those 80+ million pieces of glass that are out there?...and I'm not sure if it is even do-able. The main thing is we want you and ourselves to sell a lot of these cameras and I'm a bit worried about this issue effecting that.......

Jim Martin
EVSonline.com

Re: Aja has an $8,995 S35 4K camera, the Cion
 

Hi Jim,
I think you're a bit confused about how the alternative lens choices for the CION are accomplished. I'll try to clarify this. The entire lens mount may be swapped out on the CION. This is not just an adapter connected to the existing PL mount, but rather an entirely new lens mount. You can see images of this on the following web page:
AJA Announces CION Support From Top Camera Accessory Manufacturers - Top Stories - News - AJA Video Systems

This means that virtually any type of lens mount may be created for use with the CION (as long as the lens mount and the associated lenses offer coverage of the sensor). Swapping the lens mount is accomplished via four bolts so switching between mounts is pretty painless. I appreciate that not everyone will want to use PL mount lenses so the camera was designed from the beginning to accommodate using other lens mounts.

I hope this is a helpful clarification,
Jon Thorn
Senior Product Manager
AJA Video Systems

Re: Aja has an $8,995 S35 4K camera, the Cion
 

Jon-
Thanks for the clarification......we've had many clients who are planning to buy but were a bit confused on the lens options and were concerned that 3rd party adapters were not going to work 100%.

Jim Martin
EVSonline.com

Re: Aja has an $8,995 S35 4K camera, the Cion
 

As I'm sure you're aware, I wrote an article recently here at DVInfo that was highly critical of the Cion demo footage that was released a short while ago. While I appreciate your post here, I find it odd that you spent so much time stating that the Cion was not designed to compete with the Sony FS7. That may be the case, but given that they are coming out at approximately the same time (assuming the Cion will ship as promised, in the very near future) at roughly the same price point it's hard to see how they wouldn't compete, even if they aren't meant to.

The FS7 seems to be a mature camera. I'm had some hands on time with a pre-production prototype and while some software bugs are being ironed out it's a very mature camera. It has a number of looks built in, including Sony's attempt to emulate film (by taking some imaging cues from Alexa), and while I don't believe it offers ProRes, cameras aren't generally designed with an emphasis on post. Their footage should be easy to work with in post, but the primary purpose of a camera is to make it simple for someone like myself to create great images. Sony has that down, but so far you've shown me no evidence that the Cion can do the same.

I'm not talking about making images that are comparable to the FS7, but simply nice images, period. The demo reel that I saw was clearly shot by someone who was not all that experienced in shooting sophisticated images along the lines of what I would use the camera to produce, and there was an awful lot in the images that I found distasteful: magenta flesh tones, clipped highlights with rings around them, minimal shadow detail, blues that shifted green, etc.

Beyond that there was much that wasn't shown at all: high contrast imagery, tungsten-lit environments, etc. The impression I came away with was that the camera doesn't handle highlights gracefully, may have difficulty resolving color accurately under tungsten light, the color science is still very much a work in progress, and the stated dynamic range of 12 stops may be optimistic.

For a company that's determined to offer a camera that's a game changer, it appears that very little money or effort was used to produce a reel that would convince us of this.

Given all that, the last thing on my mind is whether it allows me to record ProRes or not, or whether its ergonomics are satisfying. First and foremost I want pretty pictures. I'll take an Alexa covered in spikes that records to 8-track cassettes long before I'd settle for a perfectly-balanced mink fur-covered GoPro that records to ProRes.

So, like it or not, Cion is in competition with the Sony FS7. Your task is to prove to us not that it can shoot the same images as the FS7, but that it can shoot pleasing images at all. So far I've seen no test footage that convinces me that Cion has cleared basic technical and artistic hurdles, which--in my mind--is necessary not for the camera to compete with the FS7, but for it to be considered a viable professional option at all.

When can we expect to see a new round of footage, shot by a professional cinematographer, that shows us how the camera responds favorably in all the circumstances I've outlined above?

Re: Aja has an $8,995 S35 4K camera, the Cion
 

Agree 100% with all of that Art.
Steve

Re: Aja has an $8,995 S35 4K camera, the Cion
 

Thank you for sharing your opinion with us.

Thanks,
Jon Thorn
Senior Product Manager
AJA Video Systems

Re: Aja has an $8,995 S35 4K camera, the Cion
 

Many thanks to you, Jon, for being here and taking the time. Much appreciated!

Re: Aja has an $8,995 S35 4K camera, the Cion
 

I apologize for Art's tone.

I may or may not buy a Cion (there are several contenders, but I am certainly in the market for a new camera in this range), but it never ceases to surprise me how personally some people take the production of a broadcast videocamera.

I promise that, unless you come and punch me in the stomach, I will not treat you like you've punched me in the stomach.

I appreciate your candor and verbose responses to this forum, I find them insightful, and if anything, the look behind the curtain moves me closer to a Cion and farther from an FS7, Ursa, etc.

Re: Aja has an $8,995 S35 4K camera, the Cion
 

Something I've learned the hard way over the years, try not to read too much into any post regarding its tone. At the end of the day, it's just text without the benefit of inflection and sometimes it's easy to misinterpret the emotion behind it. It's certainly possible to be critical and cordial at the same time, and I think Art does that very well.

Re: Aja has an $8,995 S35 4K camera, the Cion
 

Agree with that 100% too Chris! :)
Steve

Re: Aja has an $8,995 S35 4K camera, the Cion
 

Have there been any new additions to the EF mounts being made for the Cion? I've been in contact with Wooden Camera and checked out MTF to see what their EF mounts for the Cion are like. Both are passive. I'm not sure what the use of these would be. How would you change your f-stop if these are not electronic? What is the point of having a passive EF mount? Maybe I'm missing something.

Re: Aja has an $8,995 S35 4K camera, the Cion
 

Hold on, I just found that MFT does make an active version:

https://www.lensadaptor.com/mtf-effe...aja-cion-mount

Re: Aja has an $8,995 S35 4K camera, the Cion
 

Sorry to be posting serially here, updating my own posts, but it seems that MFT's active EF adaptor for the Cion may require another part to work:

https://www.lensadaptor.com/mtf-effect-control-unit-2

I guess I'm going to have to contact MFT directly to see how this all works, but it's looking like an active EF mount for the Cion may wind up costing somewhere in the neighborhood of $1500. That seems a bit extreme to me and I agree with others on this thread that a camera in this price range should be prioritizing a mount for lenses much cheaper than PL lenses. The point of this camera, it seems, is to provide a quality interchangeable lens camera for the run and gun crowd, who generally don't have Amira level budgets. Both PL lenses and these 3rd party mounts seem to defeat that purpose.

Re: Aja has an $8,995 S35 4K camera, the Cion
 

Well, since AJA just announced an actual shipping date ("end of December") for the Cion, I hereby apologize for my previous (above) posts. If this camera is as good as it is beautiful, AJA certainly hit a home run here.

-- peer

Re: Aja has an $8,995 S35 4K camera, the Cion
 

This looks like a great camera and they had me until I went to the specs. Only 60fps in 1080p then they lost me, too bad.

Re: Aja has an $8,995 S35 4K camera, the Cion
 

The Cion is now shipping:

AJA CION Ships Today | Film and Digital Times

https://www.aja.com/

Re: Aja has an $8,995 S35 4K camera, the Cion
 

It might mark me as a naif (and it's probably accurate) but why is 60 such a deal breaker these days?
Seems like it wasn't only a couple years ago.

Re: Aja has an $8,995 S35 4K camera, the Cion
 

Murray,
It might not be for you which is great. But, for me I need at least 120fps for fast action sports that my clients demand, 240fps is even better. Beyond that the camera looks nice.

Re: Aja has an $8,995 S35 4K camera, the Cion
 

I do have to say that camera looks well thought out. Be very interested what the all up cost is to have one ready to go without glass and batteries.

Re: Aja has an $8,995 S35 4K camera, the Cion
 

AFAIK it CAN do 240fps in 2K and 120 fps in 4K, the catch being that you need an external recorder to make that work, which adds non-trivially to the cost ($2k).

Re: Aja has an $8,995 S35 4K camera, the Cion
 

Funny, I see 120 @ 4k but no 240 @ 2k. And no pre-record cache. https://www.aja.com/en/products/cion#techspecs

Re: Aja has an $8,995 S35 4K camera, the Cion
 

So the camera is $9K then VF for $2K, then recorder for $2K, so $13-14K for base camera. At that point it is only media and glass. So direct competitor to Sony F5? Not the FS7

Re: Aja has an $8,995 S35 4K camera, the Cion
 

Oh I don't doubt there's reasons of various sorts. I'm waiting for some competition for the FS700 myself.
I was just idly wondering. It's something I've seen growing quite a bit around here the past couple of years. Every time a new camera comes along people look at the specs and check if it does at least 60frames at 1080 or over. If not, no sale.
I guess its just ever rising standards at work. I'm a bit out of touch so I was just curious if it was anything specific.

Re: Aja has an $8,995 S35 4K camera, the Cion
 

I'm trying hard to like the FS7, but the Cion has that "big boy camera" look that the FS7 doesn't. My kingdom for something I can shoot with on a tripod, then pop onto my shoulder when we need a handheld shot, not have to fetch a shoulder mount and fumble to attach it.

Re: Aja has an $8,995 S35 4K camera, the Cion
 

Mike, I am not really sure you know what you are saying by experience? "Big Boy Camera"? I have a FS7 right in front of me and I can go on and off the tripod to shoulder without having to do a thing. Just like I could with my F55, F800, PMW-500, EX3, EX1, C300. All of these cameras can be set up to go tripod to shoulder without having to do a thing.

And with the FS7 I do it with out any additional gear except the battery extension since I prefer to use PagLink V-Lock batteries. Of course I have to add audio and glass but the rest is there and I can switch it to 180fps quickly and then go 4K quickly and do all of it on the media inside the camera.

I think the Cion is a nice camera from what I see, but lets keep to the facts and not add hearsay from the web.

Re: Aja has an $8,995 S35 4K camera, the Cion
 

Mike, I forgot one. MTF PL to E adapter I have added which I forgot to mention. Using Sony E glass or EF glass to me is just not what I am going to do. I want PL quality manual glass. Now, saying that I will give the Sony 28-135 a go.

So the Cion has it over the FS7 being a PL mount camera from the get to. And as I said in my early post on this thread if they had 180-240 fps in 1080p in the camera I might have gone that direction. It does look very nice for hand held work. But the only way to tell is go a 12-14 hr day of hard hand held work to really know how the camera works. A rental would solve that one.

Re: Aja has an $8,995 S35 4K camera, the Cion
 

I've held the Cion and the FS7. I think the Cion looks like more of a "big boy camera" and the FS7 looks more like something you'd see on a student film. That's not hearsay from the web, it's my opinion as a guy who is in the market for a camera in this range. I understand that on the inside they both have pros and cons, and that they both create a good looking image, but the fact of the matter is that I am not judged solely on the final product, but also on a layman's impression of the equipment I'm holding.

Re: Aja has an $8,995 S35 4K camera, the Cion
 

My apology Mike,

You are more then entitled to your opinion an have more experience with the two then I do since I have not held the Cion. So mybe I am the one with hearsay. Hope you make the right decision for your work an it works well for you, they are both great options.

Re: Aja has an $8,995 S35 4K camera, the Cion
 

Paul,

Wrung my hands for the last few weeks. Couldn't decide WHAT to do. FS7, Cion, Ursa... Needed a tax writeoff before the end of the year. At the end of the day... decided to buy two new computers and upgrade to Creative Cloud for editing, and do nothing for cameras this year.

The one thing you can guarantee about cameras is that whatever I really wanted last year... They'll roll out somethingI want even more next year!

Re: Aja has an $8,995 S35 4K camera, the Cion
 

Mike,

I was in the same position an sold my PMW-300 an went for the FS7 in Dec. Having owned the F55 I am very happy so far with the FS7. Will know for sure in the next two months after a bunch of jobs. I did give the Cion a close look. Be nice to try one.

Early 2014 I went for the new MacPro, Pegasus RAID, with a few new monitors, an switched from FCP7 to PP CC. Took a while to get the computer an PP to work well together but now I am very happy with the change. Hope you find the charge suits you also.

It is silly how often we change cameras.

Re: Aja has an $8,995 S35 4K camera, the Cion
 

Hi all,
High frame rate is very important to use advantages of the camera. but CION can only up to 60fps to own internal recorder. my questions:
1-) Is there any plan to produce external AJA 4K RAW recorder up to 120fps?
2-) Is it possible to record HD or 2K 120-240fps with a firmware update of CION?

- I've found Codex Onboard S+ it can record Canon Cinema RAW 4K 120fps, and they have Canon, ARRI, RED and SONY workflows but not AJA RAW?
- Another 4K raw recorder is Convergentdesign it supports Canon, ARRI and Sony also but not AJA.
- Blackmagic can record also RAW on self.
It looks AJA needs an own RAW recorder for CION immediately, right?