Re: Blu-Ray disc use receding faster than expected
 

I would upload all video to a clients YouTube or Vimeo, but they want the flexibility of a DVD of not needing to be online to view it.

In addition, I would prefer to put daily video on a USB drive, but branded 2GB units cost $5 each while a DVD still costs 20 cents. I can't use non-branded cheap chinese USB drives because they always fail. I can't absorb an expense that goes from less than $10 to over $100.

Re: Blu-Ray disc use receding faster than expected
 

Sorry but here is MY "ya-but"...

I just finished a project for a healthcare client that will be PRIMARILY viewed in HD on their website BUT they also have locations that can't stream video due to IT blocking streaming media so they requested 200 DVD-Video copies also because of the navigability. We delivered two videos in 6 languages so the ability to navigate IN THE APPROPRIATE LANGUAGE to the right content was key.

Every healthcare office in their system has a TV and DVD/VHS combo player sitting on a cart, not a BluRay.

Please don't presume that just because YOUR business model doesn't support DVDs in this day and age that there is ZERO need..

And yes, the SD material ISN'T as pretty but the message is FAR more important than "pretty".

Re: Blu-Ray disc use receding faster than expected
 

very cool project shaun
thanks for the info
and please don't take anything I say personally, as I'm not intending disrespect for anyone's work nor am I professing to know anything
btw speaking of professing, back in the late 60's my radio instructor, Essa W. Joung worked in Winnipeg on "Jake and The Kid" a great CBC radio play based on stories by W. O Mitchell but those days were black and white and a whole nother story

Re: Blu-Ray disc use receding faster than expected
 

You can count the days when you will not see these anymore... go into any BestBuy and see what the cheapest "tv" they sell and the cheapest "dvd' player.

A 32" flat screen is now about $200. A 40" flat screen is under $300.

They DON'T sell DVD players anymore, they are ALL Blu-Ray players - backward compatible to play DVDs... they start at $49.. $200 for a top line Bliu-Ray player. Yes.. $49 for a Blu-Ray player. Wal-Mart was blowing out DVD players for $25... last Christmas. $25!

I also noticed that Sony DOESN'T MAKE A FLATSCREEN TV under 50" any more.. I bought a 40" Bravia last year... they don't make them that small anymore.. discontinued. The average 40" "lower quality" flat screen TV was well under $300.

How much lower do they have to go until EVERYONE has a 40" flatscreen and Blu-Ray player? I would say less than a year.

DVD format is not dead, as mentioned the navigation is still a useable format.. but the DVDs will be played on.. Blu-Ray players.

I also did notice quite a few UHD and 4K screen under $1000. Some large ones went up to $7000. It was just a few years ago when a 55" 1080p flatscreen was $2000... now they are $500.

Re: Blu-Ray disc use receding faster than expected
 

We can only hope Derek, but one year is way too optimistic imho.

You will know that day has arrived when one can roll up at a live event they are filming and ONLY offer Blu-ray (without sacrificing sales). How long do you think it will take for that scenario to happen? If ever...

Re: Blu-Ray disc use receding faster than expected
 

Streaming will replace Blu-Ray. Or a thumb drive hoked to USB3.

You will not see people going out to buy new DVD players (because they don't make them anymore) or even a Blu-Ray player. Can't buy a VHS player either.

Consumer are caught in the middle of a huge tech change, which will make streaming the fastest and easiest choice for consumers.

For filmmaker and content creators... many new cloud based companies are starting to offer streaming servers. They will compete with Vimeo and YouTube. Creators will just upload their final products to servers... and customers will be glad to just get a url link to what they just purchased.

Take a look at FileFactory.com. They are similar to DropBox. They are now offering UNLIMITED hard drive space for $199 for 5 years. *unlimited storage but a monthly bandwidth limit. The bandwidth is the gotcha, but as each month goes by, they keep giving more bandwidth for lower prices. And they cloud ISPs are now offering video streaming as part of there services.

So you want to shoot in 4K and deliver to a client? Send them a URL.

Re: Blu-Ray disc use receding faster than expected
 

Streaming works in some cases, but not on an airplane or other non-connected situation. We will always need local storage (maybe downloaded, rather than removable).

We don't stream from our cameras do we? We use local, removable media. :)

Re: Blu-Ray disc use receding faster than expected
 

This debate is highly dependent upon what type of work you do. Single client, corporate work is obvious. Multi client for distribution is where it is so messy. Streaming and downloads are fine for large, well known companies like Apple and Amazon. For the rest of us, physical media is a much better option right now. A least for me. It is tough to reliably expect many people to go to a certain website (that they do not know) and make a purchase or download something they purchased a ticket for etc... It may sound simple and easy, but I would not want to trust sales on it.

Re: Blu-Ray disc use receding faster than expected
 

Cloud services are working on streaming video as a number one feature, it's not going away... why would ANY "client" actually need to have video files locally when they can stream to watch it to a computer, tablet or cellphone. Video delivery is going to be streamed. Physical devices will go the way of Blockbuster video.

You may prefer local media, and keep buying hard drives.. while the rest of us will be uploading to a more cost effective "cloud".

Cloud costs a now coming down to lower than physical media. Watch DropBox, Hightail and FileFactory. Three billion dollar cloud companies poised to get into video streaming services.

Re: Blu-Ray disc use receding faster than expected
 

[QUOTE=
We don't stream from our cameras do we? We use local, removable media. :)[/QUOTE]

Yes I have several events that are live steamed from the camera to ustream and nary a local media insight
Weiyun offers 10tb streamable storage "free" and it works, but it's somewhat difficult to setup and use because of the language issue

I'm going to coin a phase here: Internetosphere - A data stream band encircling the globe to and from which all our stuff can be put or retrieved on any conceivable device for real time viewing and we'll probably do it sort of like WiFi, IE effortlessly and most likely at near or $0 cost

Re: Blu-Ray disc use receding faster than expected
 

Corporate entities with serious Intellectual Property concerns and network security risks routinely disallow streaming services. I have worked in several healthcare facilities and streaming services including YouTube are often actively disallowed on the internal network connections due to bandwidth restrictions as well as security concerns. I have also had issues where certain PowerPoint slides are embargoed on outbound webcasts due to the streaming servers being international and falling under US jurisdiction which is problematic for unreleased research.

The issues are much broader than "DVD sucks! SD sucks! Everyone should stream my gorgeous footage in 4k on YouTube because it looks better"

Re: Blu-Ray disc use receding faster than expected
 

re: "Corporate entities with serious Intellectual Property concerns and network security risks routinely disallow streaming services."

The new cloud streaming services will be professional companies that offer secure networks... we are talking a trillion dollar cloud market.

Stop trying to make it like progress in cloud and streaming is not happening. It's like arguing that ISPs are not "secure" for running a website with "intellectual property".

DVDs are a VERY LOW resolution format.. it's going away. If you are shooting a video for web or streaming, it will never be in SD format. And the options of streaming video on a secure company intranet.
Does the hospital have email? Is that secure? Then they have a secure intranet that can offer videos.

As a filmmaker, it is your job (read that as opportunity) to educate the customer the differences between SD and HD.. let alone 4K.

4K is what will push the streaming services into a profitable venture.

Re: Blu-Ray disc use receding faster than expected
 

Even for home use most people are bandwidth constrained, with 4k likely to further inhibit performance. Jerky video isn't pleasant to watch. Yet the ability to download the streamed video for later viewing may be prohibited by the licensing terms associated with the material, the assumption being that downloading increases piracy risk. At least this was the case last I looked into it.

Re: Blu-Ray disc use receding faster than expected
 

20Mbps for 4K streaming... here in the New York tri-state area my FIOS connection is 80Mbps, and ALL the other cable services offer 50+Mbps.

via Netflix Press Release:

Netflix Now Streaming in Ultra HD 4K

We’re excited about the picture quality we’re seeing in Ultra HD 4K, and we’re even more excited that expert reviewers of the first TVs capable of streaming Netflix Ultra HD 4K, including the Samsung HU8550 and HU9000, seem to agree. This is just the the beginning, expect more TVs that support Netflix in Ultra HD 4K in stores soon from Samsung, Sony, LG, and Vizio. If you buy one of these new TVs, just connect it to a power outlet and the internet, turn it on and sign into Netflix. Ultra HD 4K streaming will work out of the box.

To get the highest quality Netflix experience in Ultra HD 4K, we recommend available bandwidth of at least 20Mbps. This provides enough throughput for the stream, which is about 16Mbps, plus headroom for service variability. And speaking of variability, there are many things that can affect the data throughput to a specific device on your home network. One of those variables is how a broadband provider chooses to handle incoming bits from Netflix. Any broadband provider that’s directly connected to Netflix will deliver a better experience, especially during primetime.

...but you have steered to discussion to 4K.. we were discussing HD streaming vs SD DVD delivery.

Please show me a corporate client willing to hire a video production team that DOESN'T have the ability to stream 1080P HD content on their internal intranet. Cloud services can host the video content (if the client does not want to host the servers themselves), and a simple website can be the player to low-end desktops, tablets or even cellphones. This is not new technology!

Re: Blu-Ray disc use receding faster than expected
 

And this is the key, vital point here. Sorry, but there's a general tone in this thread of "my solution is best because.....". In practice, it depends on circumstance. Who's the work for? Is it important now, gone tomorrow? Is it's worth in future value? Is streaming even viable (due to connection issues)? There is no one size fits all.

There is no doubt that for certain applications, streaming is the way to go. For others, forget it. For such as wedding videos, if I was the client, there may be a lot to be said for having a streamed option for aunties and uncles living hundreds of miles away to see - but would I regard that as a serious option to be able to watch in the future? In ten, twenty, even thirty years time? No. No way.

And for all the reasons given earlier, then *AT THE MOMENT* an optical disc (be it DVD or Blu-Ray) must be the best choice for something that can be put on a shelf for years and have a decent chance of being viewable in the future.

As far as "DVD or Blu-Ray?" then why not supply both for such as a wedding? Assuming an HD camera, the shooting, editing, even authoring is the same amount of work is common in each case - it's then a matter of rendering the same project first to DVD, then to Blu-Ray. Very little extra work, and not much extra in blank material.

Re: Blu-Ray disc use receding faster than expected
 

Which is why there is Blu-ray to supplement it.

Yes, with attachment sizes limited to 25MB. There's a winner for you.

No it isn't.

No it won't.

Re: Blu-Ray disc use receding faster than expected
 

Gary Huff - "Yes, with attachment sizes limited to 25MB. There's a winner for you."

So... do you think a URL link in an email will be over 25MB? Are you sure you know how this works?

Re: Blu-Ray disc use receding faster than expected
 

Yes, and I don't think you do. Just because you can send links in a URL doesn't mean you can stream videos over your Intranet.

Re: Blu-Ray disc use receding faster than expected
 

Yes it does. When you use a cloud service to host your videos, all you do is include a link or embed your link on the internal company intranet. A normal corporate network can easily handle the playback traffic. That is the entire point of outsourcing your streaming video needs to a professional cloud service. Dropbox, Google, HighTail, FileFactory, among others all all getting into cloud video services.

Go to any company, have every employee launch a video on YouTube or Vimeo at the same time, and see if it works. Not an issue. And not every employee will ever have the need to stream all day, at the same time.

Need to have 30-40 employees watch a training video. No problem.

I think you really should stop making a fool of yourself in this discussion, it is obvious have very little experience with hosting video for streaming.

Re: Blu-Ray disc use receding faster than expected
 

If the cloud hosting is outsourced to a company not on the internal network (e.g. Dropbox, AWS) then the data must share the bandwidth on the company's Internet feed. Companies tend to have a lot more Internet bandwidth than home users because they have more users, but that doesn't mean every user gets a firehose for Internet access. In some cases a company might establish a dedicated feed to an external vendor, but that's often bandwidth limited due to the cost involved. It's true that internal bandwidth (intranet) speeds are faster because the hardware is available to provide that inexpensively.

Re: Blu-Ray disc use receding faster than expected
 

That is not streaming a video over your Intranet. That is streaming a video via your Internet connection.

Re: Blu-Ray disc use receding faster than expected
 

Derek,

Apparently NY is unique in the US. I live only 18 miles from an international airport and only got access to broadband cable 3-4 years ago. Telcos have very limited reach, so I don't ever expect FIOS or DSL here. As in most areas of the country, I live in a broadband monopoly area. I pay $100/mo for poor service. I won't be bringing flowers to Comcast any day soon. More appropriate items might include pitchforks and torches.

For some humor on the topic, this is a must-read. The comments echo the author's experiences:
An Open Letter to Comcast / Xfinity | Ramblings

BTW, I was at an event in Hollywood last week where Netflix and Comcast were featured speakers on one panel. The Netflix technical representative recommended 25 mbps or more for a consistent 4K experience. Behind the scenes, the organizers had specifically asked the speakers not to bring up net neutrality as it could be divisive. What was the first question from the audience? Net neutrality, of course! Responses were, um, properly restrained. :)

Anyway, don't assume that the Internet infrastructure in NYC is any more representative of the rest of the country than it's public mass transportation system is. And if net neutrality is dead, the cable monopolies won't only have power over their subscribers. They will have power to throttle back services as well.

Then we have the proposed Comcast, Time-Warner Cable merger. Gee, that will help.

Subscription TV and ISPs Plummet, Cell Phone Satisfaction Climbs-American Customer Satisfaction Index

"Customers rate Comcast (-8% to 57) and Time Warner Cable (-14% to 54) even lower for Internet service than for their TV service. In both industries, the two providers have the weakest customer satisfaction."

Re: Blu-Ray disc use receding faster than expected
 

When you hire a private secure cloud service for your video streaming needs, it IS part of your "intranet".

So I guess you now admit it CAN be done? Streaming 1080P video to a client's computer.. in the U.S. is possible.

But you made the argument to deliver SD on DVD, because 1080P video streaming is not working in the U.S.? Or what is your argument? What was your statement about limited email attachment size... oh never mind.

Let's get some facts straight. In 2014 (according to Akamai reports, do a Google) .. the United States rates 10th in worldwide internet speeds. The U.S. average speed is about 10Mbps, up from about 7Mbps in 2013... 5 Mbps in 2012.

10Mbps is fine for streaming 1080Pand 720P. Period.

Now that is the AVERAGE to households. And MOST city areas in the U.S. offer 25+Mbps. I am sorry if you can't get that speed where you live, but MILLIONS of U.S. customers do.

AND Corporate connections are MUCH HIGHER than household averages. If you have a corporate client, it is real easy to ask them if their company portal can handle 1080P video streaming. (It's an opportunity Gary!).

But what about wedding customers? Stick with DVD if your wedding customer doesn't own a $50 Blu-Ray player. Go ahead, argue all you want about exceptions to the norm, but ALL of my corporate clients have no problems with me delivering HD content.

My first post was in reply to a hospital that could not accept HD content. I find that amazing. I do not know the details of the specific hospital in Canada, but if I were selling my video services to a hospital, I WOULD DISCUSS HD solutions. Don't want to sell your client that solution, that is your business model -- but if someone is here on DVINFO stating that you can't sell HD content to clients in 2014, then you deserve be out of business.

This initial discussion was about streaming HD 1080p video. A solution for not having to deliver SD content via DVDs. I am glad we can discuss solutions for 4K streaming, as it is coming... but the bar was set for HD streaming - not 4K. The fact that we can even discuss streaming 4K should tell you where we are with regular HD streaming.

Re: Blu-Ray disc use receding faster than expected
 

Don't tell me... you started shooting five years ago with a dSLR.

I've worked behind corporate firewalls with dedicated IT departments for the past 10 years and one thing I can tell you is that IT folks routinely get bored and look for things to shut down.

Not saying a hospital CAN'T accept HD content, I'm just saying that The Cloud isn't a magical gateway that allows unfettered access to whatever whimsical, magical media you've promised your client without considering access issues.

I currently have a client who is trying to get media to stream from a Vimeo Pro account inside the firewall and can't because the distributed OS on the computers that are part of the Intranet are running Windows XP and a web browser version that won't allow the streaming protocol.

I DOUBT you'd be able to convince an entire health region to update their OS solely because you want to stream HD content to them.

Re: Blu-Ray disc use receding faster than expected
 

The above scenario is fairly common in healthcare facilities in Canada at least (and no, we don't all live in igloos...) where the end user has ZERO control over what is installed/installable on "their" desktop.

This is the reality of "playing" in the Big Corporate Sandbox - some corporations encourage The Web as a resource, others see a massive security risk. And I can't blame them when I receive an email every couple of weeks from some service I subscribe to telling me my password may have been compromised.

Re: Blu-Ray disc use receding faster than expected
 

What a coincidence, just got an email from Tmpgenc promoting a file system that can deal with menus and chapters etc
I have no affiliation other than use a couple of their products
TMPGEnc PGMX? CREATOR - Video, Subtitles, Slideshows and Menus, all in one file.

down side is needing their player which may or may not be a deal breaker

Re: Blu-Ray disc use receding faster than expected
 

It's 2014.

Benefits of using a Cloud Service for Video Streaming:

1. Plays on all modern browsers, including TVs, tablets, phones, ebook readers and computers.
2. Cut and paste the link to embed video into your own websites and emails.
3. Highly scalable, with servers on every continent. No limit to simultaneous streams and viewers get the stream that's closest.
4. Quality will autodetect high resolution and 30 FPS when possible.
5. Completely playerless. Viewers don't require apps or plug-ins to view the video.

Re: Blu-Ray disc use receding faster than expected
 

Derek,

I have been a member of this site for many years. I like exchanging information, interacting and learning on this website. It has a very deliberate, respectful tone.

One thing I have learned after these many years is that we all do different things in this industry. There is no one size fits all. Seriously, there are all facets of possible situations on this forum from broadcast to cinema to complete newbies.

You only have 21 posts, so you are rather new here. Sorry to be blunt and give unsolicited advice, but take a bit of a chill pill. We all love HD and great images but work holds many different realities for all of us. Just because one might deal with DVDs does not say anything about their expertise or abilities. Sometimes it really is just what the client needs or wants.

Frustrating but that is reality.

Re: Blu-Ray disc use receding faster than expected
 

On a side note ....

Cloud = somebody else's web server/computer

There's nothing magical about it except in marketing circles.

Andrew

Re: Blu-Ray disc use receding faster than expected
 

Actually, it is not. You seem to have a tremendous misconception about the differences between an Intranet and the Internet.

That wasn't what you said that I originally responded to:

If by that you meant you can share YouTube links, then the last sentence is nonsensical because the Intranet has nothing to do with it at all. Again, a completely misunderstanding of the difference.

Yes, because of your statement above. What you actually said strongly implied that all they needed to do was to share actual video files via email, because streaming "over the Intranet" like you keep typing it, does not involve YouTube, because that's not part of a company's Intranet. It would involve a package installed on their internal servers that can serve up video.

AMD has such a package, and commonly uses it internally. But most businesses do not, because it's an expense they cannot justify.

Blu-ray is routinely 30-40Mbps. That means your 10Mbps "just-fine-for-streaming" is a third of the potential bitrate it could possibly have. And it may not seem to make much a difference, after all, macroblocking is hard to detect on an iPhone, but if it ever happens to be viewed on a 70" TV (which I routinely use at a business) then it's just as bad as delivering a SD DVD, except you don't have that excuse to fall back on.

Marketing an often a lie, especially when video streaming services are concerned. I just watched a short 3 minute Colbert Report clip in HD and it buffered three times, each time paused for about 5-8 seconds. And my service is advertised as being 75Mbps. Yet something else that you seem to woefully misunderstand.

Clearly you have not had the pleasure of asking a corporate client a technical question of this kind. On top of that, there are things that are outside of your control now, using a third party service to stream video for you. I had a single video go down on Vimeo for a client. Just stopped working. Did they call Vimeo? Of course not, they called me. What can I do in that instance? Provide tech support for a browser? That's what you want to do?

I give the client whatever they ask for. If they ask for SD, that's fine by me. What's the problem?

Personally, I have never had a client as specifically for SD. Only HD.

Re: Blu-Ray disc use receding faster than expected
 

I work for a US research lab that is an arm of a Japanese company. Man, I wish they could view Vimeo content at our offices in Japan, but it's blocked by the corporate IT department. They probably don't want people watching cat videos on the job. So, I often set up an ftp account, forward it, and... few people watch the content as it's more than a click away (at least not in Explorer, and they all use Explorer.)

Next week, we will produce several demo videos. How will we deliver them? As HD files (probably 720p) on data (not video) DVDs. We will FedEx them and hope people insert the DVDs into their computers.

If computer manufacturers had adopted BD drives years ago, it would be a different story. In an office environment, people simply don't have BD players at their desks (even at companies that make BD players!) And if the IT department blocks video streaming sites by policy, ftp and DVD is all we have left.

Re: Blu-Ray disc use receding faster than expected
 

No Gary, I never said YouTube. But I did mention specific video streaming cloud companies, maybe go back and check my posts.. but you keep trying to work around it... it is clear to me you have never streamed video with any cloud services. You make assumptions about my experience, you have zero knowledge of who I am... or the Fortune 100 companies I work for... It is useless to go on with this discussion. You are here just to argue...

If you want real-world solution.. working right now... check out Amazon Web Services. http://aws.amazon.com/cloudfront/
— Amazon CloudFront Support for Custom SSL allows you to use your own domain name and your own SSL certificate to deliver content over HTTPS.
— Support for On-demand Microsoft Smooth Streaming. Use CloudFront to deliver video using the Smooth Streaming format without the need to setup and operate any media servers.

Amazon CloudFront is also not blocked in Japan. And if you are wondering who uses CloudFront.. Netflix uses CloudFront for streaming 4K.

Re: Blu-Ray disc use receding faster than expected
 

There's also Aspera, which was started by IBM: Aspera - High-speed file transfer software

It's super fast and used by Hollywood, but it's not for those who can't write big checks.

Regarding Japan, it's one thing to get a connection into the country and another to get it behind a corporate firewall. Trying to convince somebody in the IT department to change policy can be "difficult".

And then there's China. I was there late last year. The Internet is, um, different there...

Re: Blu-Ray disc use receding faster than expected
 

Need to show a client HD test footage (large files) ... overnight? Forget burning or sending hard drives in the mail.

I have been using HighTail (formerly yousendit.com) for transferring LARGE files back and forth between clients. But for the service to work best, both ends needs to have accounts. You "can" share out files, but if the other person is not a HighTail member, they get slow downloads.

Almost all cloud sharing now offers "unlimited" disk space... the catch is the monthly bandwidth limits. There has been a price war between DropBox and HighTail for the professional market, and they keep increasing the monthly bandwidths - since they already offer plans with unlimited storage, they can't increase that area.

Both DropBox and HighTail will soon be offering services specific for video streaming... at the consumer price range. Amazon and Google and other cloud video streaming is still at corporate prices.

Many advertising agencies use this service for sending big files back and forth (larger than 10GB files). Much faster than FedEx.

Re: Blu-Ray disc use receding faster than expected
 

Well bully for you! That's certainly not the case in many parts of the world, and even where it's available it's not necessarily affordable nor reliable.

Re: Blu-Ray disc use receding faster than expected
 

Im in a hotel room in Manhattan that provides Wi-Fi right now. It's 1 am and I can't stream 720p from YouTube without stuttering.

High speed access isn't universal. One bottleneck is all it takes.

Re: Blu-Ray disc use receding faster than expected
 

First off, average (or 'mean' according to statisticians) can be a pretty misleading statistic.
Outliers influence it greatly. 9 people have a 1 meg connection and 1 person has a 200 meg connection.
The mean (or average) connection speed is about 21 megs.....even though the large majority
are not even close to that speed. In other words, great for you if you can get that speed but
MILLIONS of Americans cannot....especially those who don't live in cities.

Second, speed by itself doesn't mean everything. Since cable companies control a lot of the
Internet bandwidth, they like to do things like give you 20 meg speed...but anything over 5 gigs
costs you 'overage' charges. They don't want you streaming Netflix, Amazon, Hulu Plus,
MLB GameTime, NBA Season Pass, NFL Sunday Ticket or any of the other streaming offerings.
They want you to pay them monthly for cable....hence the streaming restrictions.

Finally, I did some video work for an oil company just a little while ago. It's a big enough company
that you have heard of them, it's a worldwide company, they just happen to do a lot of work in Alaska.
They have their own building in Anchorage and because of 'security concerns' everything is locked
down. Trying to figure out a way to stream video on their network? Forget it, IT wasn't letting
that happen. I had to pay to have a entirely separate internet line installed so I could hook my
laptop up to stream the video for everyone. And they wouldn't let any of their computers touch it.
I was 'taking a risk' with my computer according to them.

Re: Blu-Ray disc use receding faster than expected
 

Of course it is available on DVD. See the official video.


Andrew

Re: Blu-Ray disc use receding faster than expected
 

This thread went OT and started getting personal, so a number of posts were removed from public view. Topic is "BluRay use receding..."