Re: Sony announced new A7r mk2, RX10mk2 and RX100mk4 all with internal 4k
 

To be clear, I certainly was not dismissive of the full-frame mode and even indicated that I'd still likely prefer it over S35. I still think Sony is making it sound like S35 mode will have less moire and processing artifacts. But yes agreed time will tell. I wish they'd hurry up and release some full frame images.

Re: Sony announced new A7r mk2, RX10mk2 and RX100mk4 all with internal 4k
 

I really don't know. I've never used a speedbooster on a Sony camera. I've used the full frame Metabones adapter with Canon lenses, and the autofocus was very slow on a A7II. But the A7RII is reported to have solved this. Whether this would apply to a speedbooster has not been discussed by Sony. More will be revealed over time. I'm personally not very interested in this, I'm not a fan of lens adapters, and I'll just use my wide angle lenses in the Super 35 mode with the A7RII. But the idea is intriguing if it comes to be.

I'm more interested in whether Sony and third party APS-C lenses will work in the Super 35 mode. There is a great selection of these lenses. I'm pretty sure this is going to work, but again, Sony hasn't discussed it.

Re: Sony announced new A7r mk2, RX10mk2 and RX100mk4 all with internal 4k
 

I think what I and others have been trying to say, and it's my fault perhaps for not being clear enough, is that there are several early articles, videos, etc. that are touting the super 35 abilities and downplaying the full frame 4k abilities. Sony, bless 'em, is like most other camera manufacturers in that it allows its marketing department to sometimes painfully oversell a product and under deliver (auto focus in video mode on the a99 comes painfully to mind). If Sony has included an incredible full frame, no compromises 4k functionality, and chosen not to play up that fact at all, and hide videos of how great this mode will be and only show videos of the super 35 mode, then the execs at Sony must have been visited by 3 ghosts last Christmas and changed their ways:)

Re: Sony announced new A7r mk2, RX10mk2 and RX100mk4 all with internal 4k
 

Yes, but AFAIK those have been by people who haven't had the facilities or access to the camera to perform any real quantitative tests. Until somebody does exactly that, it's dangerous to draw too many conclusions from slight inferences in marketing press releases - which unfortunately is exactly what has been happening. On top of that, conclusions have been reached by extrapolating from other camera tech - in a fashion which is sensible on the face of it, but when you think about what the implications of a sensor with twice the desired resolution *MAY* be, those certainties go out the window.

If it is the case, the rule book has to be rewritten.

The first test that could be done to try to prove or disprove whether what I'm saying is true is to first lock the camera off, ideally looking at something like a ruler laid horizontally. Then take a still frame using full frame max resolution mode, then shoot some 4K full frame 4K video without moving the camera, and compare the angle of views of the two results.

The max resolution for stills is 7952x5304. If my theory is correct, it must use 7680x4320 if it's doing the 2x2 read for video in this mode. The implication is that if I'm right, we'll see a slight reduction in the angle of view between the still and video modes - video mode will be a bit tighter than stills. It's possible to predict how much it be which is the difference between the horizontal counts, divided by the total, and multiplied by 100 to get a percentage. That's about a 3.5% crop.

So - does that happen?
Well, no need for supernatural explanations! I can think of two other possibilities, always assuming I'm right!

Conspiracy would be that they want to keep the exact details from their competitors for as long as possible, in which case they are going to appreciate what I've said like a hole in the head!

Cock-up would be that in many organisations there is a big gap between the designers and engineers and the marketing and sales people - and it's the latter who tend to write the public facing literature. Believe me on this one! And all too often the marketing people don't fully understand what the technical people tell them, let alone there being issues with needing to condense it into a public friendly form anyway.

And in general, I normally favour cock-up over conspiracy...... And either of those are more likely than 3 ghosts coming a-visiting! :-)

Re: Sony announced new A7r mk2, RX10mk2 and RX100mk4 all with internal 4k
 

I'm not worried about Sony color at all: Rakesh Malik

That I think is the most sensible statement so far on this thread. :)

I have no problems focusing with my a7r, so it wouldn't worry me.

I find it amusing that in most discussions about the a7s, people seem to assume that its defining characteristic is its high ISO support, which IMO should be a tertiary consideration, at most. Far more useful is its very wide dynamic range (comparable to what you get with an Alexa or a CineAlta), its very wide color gamut, and as a fringe benefit, its high sensitivity.

Worse? Not likely, based on the quality of what the a7s can record internally.

Re: Sony announced new A7r mk2, RX10mk2 and RX100mk4 all with internal 4k
 

I look forward to trying out the MkII.

I like the A7s, but it sounds like the MkII has addressed a couple of things lacking = internal 4K recording, usable auto focus and an even better viewfinder + 8K stills.

Re: Sony announced new A7r mk2, RX10mk2 and RX100mk4 all with internal 4k
 

Here are the first high-ISO still image samples. Looks as good or better than my 6D so I think I'll be happy with it.

First High ISO (12800, 25600) Sample Images of Sony a7RII | Camera News at Cameraegg

Re: Sony announced new A7r mk2, RX10mk2 and RX100mk4 all with internal 4k
 

Do you think the A7R II will video autofocus better than the Panasonic GH4 which really sucks on video autofocus.

As to low light video, I am a bit uncertain which would provide better footage, using the full frame feature which supposedly has more issues, or the super 35mm setting for the sensor.

Re: Sony announced new A7r mk2, RX10mk2 and RX100mk4 all with internal 4k
 

News Shooter | Sony a7R II first impressions: Hands on with the surprising 4K camera

Granted this a preproduction unit but I'm disappointed in the rolling shutter performance.

Re: Sony announced new A7r mk2, RX10mk2 and RX100mk4 all with internal 4k
 

I think it's worth quoting something else from the link above link (my emphasis):
All that is definitively known about the various modes is that it does some form of pixel-binning in the full-frame modes, and also s35 HD - it doesn't in 4K s35.

That has then been widely interpreted as it must mean the full-frame modes won't therefore be as good as the s35 because of the binning - but as I've suggested before that may be a wrong conclusion. High quality via binning relies on the sensor dimensions being EXACTLY twice the format resolution, and that is mathematically possible for a 42Mp sensor.

I'm still waiting to see more definitive tests (esp crop comparisons of the various modes) but reading "The second big surprise is that the full-frame 4K mode also looks remarkably good. ........ The 4K full-frame output of the a7R II is really excellent." tends to make me think it is indeed likely that it is using 2x2 binning for ff 4K. Having less rolling shutter in the FF mode would also be in line with the theory - more photosites to read out, but much less processing to do.

And that really would make the A7R II quite special.......

Re: Sony announced new A7r mk2, RX10mk2 and RX100mk4 all with internal 4k
 

disregard, apologies

Re: Sony announced new A7r mk2, RX10mk2 and RX100mk4 all with internal 4k
 

I have a stupid question here.

Assume somebody is mainly interested in acquiring some equipment around the $ 3000 price point for video only.

Why spend 3000 bucks on this Sony A7r 2 when for the same price you can have a ursa mini shooting ProRez 444? I still believe that the 4K sensor camera, because it comes with free Resolve and the amazing color grading capability of ProRes is better than the Sony. I understand somebody taking the sony over the Ursa Mini 4.6K, which I think is probably over kill for most people, but why pick it up over the 4K, considering the incredible advantage of a color space offering 444?
Am I missing something here?

Re: Sony announced new A7r mk2, RX10mk2 and RX100mk4 all with internal 4k
 

For me its about the full frame sensor and the look that that gives me with my full frame lenses.
At the moment I have a 5d3 and Im considering the new sony. I wouldnt jump ship for a crop sensor. I dont do much grading (dont have time) so really its what can be produced in the camera itself that applies to myself. Im not even iterestedn in Slog2. Too time consuming for my work to be messing with it.
So color space is all great but for me I need a light small good in low light full frame camera that shoots 4k internally and looks like a photography camera. Too much to ask? Apparently not. :)

Re: Sony announced new A7r mk2, RX10mk2 and RX100mk4 all with internal 4k
 

I'm pretty sure the URSA mini is a repackaged Black Magic Production Camera. It's not going to be great in low light and the dynamic range is good, but not anything special. For wedding filmmakers such as myself 4k at ProRes 444 isn't practical. I need an efficiently compressed codec. The Sony will also make a great stills cam for those of us who do both. Also if we need a more robust codec for a specific shoot we can always rent or buy a shogun. There's also the in camera stabilization which is very attractive for handheld work and the short flange distance that lets you adapt pretty much any legacy lens ever to it. There's a lot of win in the A7R II.

Re: Sony announced new A7r mk2, RX10mk2 and RX100mk4 all with internal 4k
 

OK,
your answers make sense, both of you. In both cases we are dealing with people not interested in narrative but who are working at filming weddings. Sure I understand.
The fact that the Ursa Mini 4K is a repackage BMPC is not a bad thing.
I guess if you don't do fiction why bother to color grade and why bother with any codec in 444

Re: Sony announced new A7r mk2, RX10mk2 and RX100mk4 all with internal 4k
 

Also from my past experience with the Blackmagic 2.5K and pocket cameras, just setting up the cameras and all that necessary rigging for a shoot was a work in itself. Not to mention a number of firmware glitches and design quirks that often held back the shoots. Assuming you can and have the time to get everything right I believe the newer 4K capable models will give you a nice image with a distinctive look in a way the Sony A7R II probably can't. But IMHO the $3,000 for the Sony also buys a peace of mind for a lot of people aside from a camera that shoots 4K.

Re: Sony announced new A7r mk2, RX10mk2 and RX100mk4 all with internal 4k
 

And why bother with shooting in 444 with a sensor that doesn't actually give you that?

Re: Sony announced new A7r mk2, RX10mk2 and RX100mk4 all with internal 4k
 

Has anyone here gotten to play with an A7RII yet? I have mine ordered but who the heck knows when they'll ship...

Re: Sony announced new A7r mk2, RX10mk2 and RX100mk4 all with internal 4k
 

I was interested in the A7R mkII until I saw various reports of it overheating and shutting down after a short time when recording 4K. Maybe this is something Sony can hopefully fix?

New Shooter article mentioning overheating:
News Shooter | Sony a7R II part III: 5-axis stabilisation and heat issues – going handheld to tell the story of a London busker

B&H review mentioning overheating:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1159878-REG/sony_a7r_mark_ii_digital.html

Re: Sony announced new A7r mk2, RX10mk2 and RX100mk4 all with internal 4k
 

I've had a A7RII for a few days. The 4K video quality for both full frame and S35 is very good. S35 performs really well in low light (it's not an A7S, but it is better than anything I've ever had). I've played quite a bit with Slog2; this has exceptional dynamic range. But EOSHD has published a flat profile for the A7RII they call CINEFLAT that is more like a Canon LOG style, and it seems to give better color and better control of color in post. I've tried this and am switching to it - I expect this profile will be a winner for serious video.

Rolling shutter is high, so you won't be doing fast pans - as we're all used to with CMOS sensors. There have been reports of shut down with over heating with the S35 mode before the 29 minute limit. I have not had this problem, and many users report trying to make it fail and they can't, but it is something to be concerned about.

Of course it is an amazing stills camera.

Re: Sony announced new A7r mk2, RX10mk2 and RX100mk4 all with internal 4k
 

Is the 29 min. limit a pause and rest the camera for a few minutes or an arbitrary limit that you can re-start right away. Thinking of using the RX10 Mk11 for low-budget theater shoots that can last 2 hours, shooting in 4K. Thoughts?

Re: Sony announced new A7r mk2, RX10mk2 and RX100mk4 all with internal 4k
 

It's an arbitary limit and you can re-start right away. But that fraction of a second before you start recording again might be where you miss an important part of the performance. It wouldn't be that much of a problem if you're shooting a person speaking at an event, for example, but theater might be a problem. The other problem is that you intend to shoot in 4K and not HD. As it is now when shooting in 4K with the A7R mkII, it will likely overheat during use, and you'll have to wait until it cools down to use it again.

Re: Sony announced new A7r mk2, RX10mk2 and RX100mk4 all with internal 4k
 

Thanks for the info Ed. Sorry for the late reply, irregular schedule and all that. So overheating is an issue for longer shots, damn. Guess I'll wait for the next models. For this particular client, even an FDR-AX100 is pushing the budget, And the HFS feature is awfully sexy.

Also Sony, keep coming with those video friendly lenses. Ah, for a constant arpeture, parfocal zoom lens that is light and costs less than a car that works with larger imagers. Blackmagic might actually sell their studio cameras if they could find a MFT version. Oh, well... And thanks again Ed.

Re: Sony announced new A7r mk2, RX10mk2 and RX100mk4 all with internal 4k
 

Reports of heat issues seem to be coming in on the A7rMk2, and the RX100M4 of course has a very short clip duration of 5 minutes for 4K, but so far at least the RX10M2 hasn't been reported to have heat problems (yet?).

The RX10 update may be the "magic" combo of size and engineering to be able to dissipate heat well enough for the sensor size and processing horsepower... I'm watching for reports of overheating carefully, as I had some early "small body" Alpha SLT's that definitely were quick to overheat! Seems to be an ongoing engineering challenge!

Re: Sony announced new A7r mk2, RX10mk2 and RX100mk4 all with internal 4k
 

There are a lot of reports that having the LCD flipped out from the body delays or even eliminates overheating depending on ambient conditions. At least the trend line is in the right direction.

Re: Sony announced new A7r mk2, RX10mk2 and RX100mk4 all with internal 4k
 

I just "heat stress tested" my RX10M2, no overheat problems in low-mid 70's ambient temps, about an hour and 20 minutes of continuous running (hit the record as soon as it turned off at 29:50) before the battery expended and cam shut down, continued for another hour or so after putting in a new battery - looks good enough, though that's no guarantee in hotter conditions I'd suppose!

I believe that the LCD being folded out provides better overall airflow and cooling to the actual body of the camera - I started with the LCD "in" and then flipped it out after the first 29:50 clip... camera body definitely gets warm, but never saw any heat warning from the camera!

I had an older A55 that could just barely make 15 minutes before overheating... quite pleased to see the RX10M2 be as reliable as the old RX10!


SO, for Eric, you'd probably be just fine with the RX10M2 for your purposes, as long as the theatre isn't an old hotbox with no A/C <wink>. Presuming there's an intermission for a battery swap, and you can find a "pause" or two in the action to "double tap" record before the 29:50 limit, the camera should serve the purposes well enough!

You might even consider picking up a RX10M1 (they are ridiculously cheap used on ebay right now...) for a second camera - zooms and close ups to intermix/cut with the M2's 4K? You'd get some very nice 1080/HD results! In fact, if budget is a big issue, the HD from the Mk1 looks pretty darned good next to the 4K for most intents and purposes... I can see the difference on a 4K monitor, but it's not THAT huge - the advantages of pan/crop in post of course come with shooting 4K, but 1080/60p looks mighty nice! If your cams are manned, you could practically pick up TWO Mk1's for the going price of a Mk2...

Re: Sony announced new A7r mk2, RX10mk2 and RX100mk4 all with internal 4k
 

With regard to heat measurements, Harbor Freight has a non-contact infrared thermometer on sale at $25.99 with their Super Coupon.
Non-Contact Infrared Thermometer With Laser Targeting

This is a really handy little item to have around the house, car, or the boat. Or even the wife if she says "feel how cold my hand/ foot is." But you can use it on the cam, too. )Tell the wife you had to buy it for medical reasons.)