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-   -   The more I learn... (https://www.dvinfo.net/forum/dvd-authoring/469599-more-i-learn.html)

Thomas Moore December 17th, 2009 01:31 PM

The more I learn...
The more I get confused :(

Reading another thread in this sub-forum I just saw a statement that DVD specs only allow 24P or 60i... and that a 30p project (29.97) should be converted to 60i prior to creating the MPEG file to put on DVD.

I use Sony Vegas9c and tmpgenc 4.0 xpress to create my MPEG file in the following workflow:

1)1080 or 720 30p (sometimes 720 60p on a 30p timeline) finished Cineform Neo Scene file render out full size to a Lanscos .avi. Settings in Vegas are for progressive not interlaced...

2)Import into tmpgenc (this is one of the things that confuse me) which always sees my file as interlaced (Vegas will see this rendered .avi file also as Interlaced) which I have been forcing back to progressive thinking that was what I was supposed to do.

3)Render out of tmpgenc as a 2 part MPEG, .m2v and .ac3 file

4)Bring into Sony DVDA which never needs to re-encode this file so I've been assuming that the render out of tmpgenc was correct - although I"m still not getting pristine quality that I would think I should.

So my question is am I doing anything wrong and if so please correct me!

Thanks in advance....

Tripp Woelfel December 18th, 2009 08:01 AM

I cannot pick out anything in particular that you have wrong.

I wouldn't worry too much about TMPGEnc thinking that your file is interlaced. It often mis-reports info on my files that it imports (mostly .mov using Animation or DNxHD) reporting odd frame rates or wrong field settings. I think it has problems reading the format metadata for some formats.

If you select the MPEG for DVD settings, which it sounds like you do, you should get the optimum settings for legal DVD video. So I'm wondering if there's something happening earlier in your workflow that's degrading the quality of your video. There are lots places this might happen.

Can you frameserve out of Vegas like can be done in CS3 with DebugMode? That could eliminate a conversion step that is costing you quality.

Thomas Moore December 18th, 2009 11:11 AM

I run 64 bit Vista so alas no I can't run framserver even in 32 bit Vegas - wish I could....

The .avi file rendered from Vegas still looks good but I do wonder if this is adding to my quality loss even though Lancos is supposded to be lossless...

Thomas Moore December 18th, 2009 02:10 PM

And now more confusion...

I've been rendering out to 720x480 progressive, but I keep seeing that DVD spec is only Interlaced. Saw another thread on another forum that says using the 1080 30p etc should be rendered out to 480/60i and 108024p should be put out to 480/24p for DVD...


Marty Welk December 18th, 2009 06:37 PM

i have some of the same confusion, the options i see are
NTSC interlace or progressive, WITH the output of a dvd device always being interlace ANYWAYS.
meaning it can already be interlace or progressive, and it can be converted (tmpeg properly) to progressive 30p (from interlace), or Psudo progressive 30p in interlace output.
It can be progressive and encoded to interlace , in psudo interlace, for interlace output.

Progressive capture 30p coded interlace is still progressiveLY scanned, even if it is interlace encoded or played back.
interlace originals 60i, coded interlace 60i recoded to dvd in 60i interlace from beginning to end.

the output of the analog connected dvds will always be Interlace, anyways.
the playback on most of the consumer LCDs will be Progressive Anyways.
the playback on consumer CRTs will be interlace anyway.

progressive meaning both interlace FEILDS will just be showing 1/2 the progressive frame anyways, no movement between feilds. then the display device is still showing a 30p even if its being fed 2 SAME FRAME interlace feilds.

lol sure like that helped :-)

i dont know any reason Why a NTSC person cant also make a PAL dvd, with 50 feild and or 25frame, because being DATA on the dvd, does not define the playback system (or region when that comes into play).

better definitions of interlace and progressive , might be needed.
progressive , no movement between feilds , reguardless of it being an "interlace" video or not.

Interlace, 2 Feild recording, which does not DEFINE that there is movement between the 2 feilds, does not define that there is 60 Fields of Motion, only that it is now recorded/played with 2 seperated feilds.

Beginning to end Progressive , Single 30FRAME pieces, stored on DVD as progressive 30p , played back however it is locked to playing back anyways (which can mean interlace playback of ProgressiveLY shot and recorded stuff).

Actual Interlace 60i Capture and recording and playback, where there is 60 FEILDS of motion represented in the 2 feilds, and it has not been converted TO progressive anywhere in the process.

the more i learn, the more i wish there was a stake to shoot these people at :-) were still stuck with backward compatability issues, that came from interlace, and they still havent done crap to get us full frame 60motion, which i think is needed.

Alex Humphrey December 28th, 2009 02:00 PM

I gave up on 30p for DVD/BlueRay/iTunes distribution a couple years ago. Shoot 24p or 60i in NTSC land an you will be a lot happier. (you CAN also shoot 60p as well but that's another thread)

It really doesn't matter that 30p I admit is nicer to work with in it's raw form on your editor and monitor, but it's really only distributiable as web videos. If you can don't shoot any more footage in 30p. If you have important footage in 30p I would figure out your footage you will use and convert it to 24p with BEST settings. With a dual quad core 3.ghz machine it takes about 20 hours of render time for every 1 hour of footage to properly retime 30p to 24p. You can do a similar conversion to 60i with probably similar render times. (I choose to not to shoot or distribute anything in interlace)

You can do short conversions, but you will see ugly jumps in timing. Watch Discovery Channels graphics and see the spinning earth and Discovery logo and you will see what I mean. They went from 30p to 24p without properly retiming on their DVD's and simallary quicky render retime to 60i for broadcast. It looks wrong and timed jumpy. Don't buy into camera manufactor's hype. 30p is not for commercial distribution in any manner.

Peter Manojlovic December 29th, 2009 07:51 PM

Nothing wrong Thomas....
The DVD Player will know to pull out interlaced information from the progressive frames...
You'll be fine to edit and encode in progressive mode...

The progressive frames allow for nicer visual playback on progressive monitors..The playback software on computers should be able to take advantage of 30 progressive frames, rather than needing to deinterlace...

Thomas Moore December 30th, 2009 02:37 PM

Thanks appreciate the input...

William Urschel January 14th, 2010 06:49 AM

WHAT! After 1700 hours (yes, 1700 hours, after hours, according to my 2008 and 2009 time reports) of experimentation with BD and DVD production from EX-1 and FX-1 and some cameras using AVCHD Codec, I settled upon the best solution for my customers - the best DVDs, with the best detail and least artifacts. 720x480 30p - plays on my three test BD players and almost all of my customer machines, and shows up best on their progressive LCDs and projectors. After investing an immense amount of money and time in everything from TMPG to Vegas, and 12 other programs, I now use with most consistant, reliable and best production with the much maligned Adobe Media Encoder (CS4) and Adobe Encore (CS4), and of course, using as editor, Adobe Premiere Pro (CS4). After being a rabid Cineform fan for years, and particularly for its handling of Mini-DV, I have dropped it entirely (latest updated version Cineform Prospect 4k), upon the good advice of others here, as both unnecessary and as introducing artifacts. I am not alone in very successfully producing 720x480 30p DVDs, as evidenced by the statement of many others here using Vegas, etc.. Nuff said!

Seth Bloombaum January 14th, 2010 11:10 AM

Pray tell, William - at what point in an HD workflow do you deinterlace? Resize? With which of the tools above? With what settings?

Ervin Farkas January 14th, 2010 12:12 PM

Clearing the confusion

Originally Posted by Thomas Moore (Post 1461909)
And now more confusion... I've been rendering out to 720x480 progressive, but I keep seeing that DVD spec is only Interlaced. Saw another thread on another forum that says using the 1080 30p etc should be rendered out to 480/60i and 108024p should be put out to 480/24p for DVD... Help!

The DVD technical specs do allow progressive video.

The confusion comes from the fact that analog outputs from DVD players can be either interlaced or progressive. So here is what happens.

Composit and S-video outputs can only be interlaced, therefore cheap players that only have these two formats as output will be "interlaced only". Regardless of how you encode your DVD, the output will be interlaced.

More sophisticated players have component output. And component output can be either interlaced or progressive, some players even having two sets of component outputs, one each format.

And then, of course, there are the digital outputs... yet another story...

William Urschel January 21st, 2010 05:54 AM

Please excuse me, Seth, for my very late reply to your query you posted two above - because of serious illness in family, I've been away and will be.

Since ALL of my shooting (well, almost all, with the exception of some very limited specialty applications) is done in 1080x1920 30p, there is no deinterlacing involved in any of the steps I follow. From the final edit of that 1080 30p timeline in Adobe Premiere CS4,
I use Adobe Media Encoder CS4 to create files for both BluRay and DVD Production, therefore using AME for downsizing to 480. Since I am in my home office versus the studio at this early hour, I do not have the established procedure settings (on my main editing computer, a glorious BOXX) with me at the moment, but as a matter of established practice, for both BluRay and DVD (in NTSC Land), I use the MPEG encoding, High Quality (which, as I recall, then shows up as "4" quality, which I always reset to "5" for both BD and DVD). Then, specifically for BD, since with AME I cannot encode progressive, I go to interlaced, upper field first, then VBR, 2 Pass, and leave the bitrate settings at 25, 30, and 35. For DVD, set to progressive, widescreen high quality, I again reset quality from "4" to "5", VBR 2 Pass, and RESET the bitrate to, as I remember, 4, 6, and 8 (the last, 8, versus the top 9, based upon many warnings here I've seen posted against using 9 because of some players' difficulty in playing discs with the highest bitrate?). I think that covers it, and just bring files generated by AME into Encore CS4 and handle everything in the usual way.

For years I used and loved Cineform Aspect, then Prospect for processing, downsizing (when I finally moved to HD cameras), and archiving with great success. When I purchased my first Sony FX-1, I obtained the very best downsizing from the 1080x1440 60i original to 720x480 for DVD by using Cineform versus oodles of other apps. And likewise with other HDV cameras. But when I purchased the EX-1, similar software processing resulted in garbage DVD results. Further, unlike any HDV 1080 output, the far greater detail provided by the EX-1 showed up on all of my flat panel and projection screens in the original high definition with highly objectionable twitter on fine horizontal detail or horizontal sharp edges, etc.. And using Cineform, the only way I could get rid of it was to use one of Adobe Premier's anti-flicker settings, which, of course, reduced the splendid sharpness of the EX-1 results. And then to render the timeline in Premier for the anti=flicker setting took horrendous lengths of time. So after all that experimentation, and after Adobe apparently and finally fixed a series of the CS4 products, I ended up with the procedure outlined above.

I hope this is reponsive to your query.

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