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-   -   Capturing in Pro Res (https://www.dvinfo.net/forum/final-cut-suite/103228-capturing-pro-res.html)

Floris van Eck September 10th, 2007 11:50 AM

Capturing in Pro Res
 
I was wondering if I am able to capture footage from my Canon XL-H1 directly into the Appre Pro Res codec? I cannot find the right settings and I have read at multiple websites that one can capture in Pro Res. So what am I missing? Which settings do I need to adjust?

Then there is live capture but what I want is to capture from tape to my Mac through firewire.

John Cash September 10th, 2007 12:24 PM

Go to audio/video settings under the final cut pro tab. You will see a capture setting drop down bar. There you can choose pro res 422. You can also choose it under "media manager"
I havent had much luck with it so far.
I have captured a clip around 30 seconds long in pro ress , edited and then exported using Quicktime conversion. My prores clip ends up at about 250 meg.
I go through the sae steps with H 264 and the file is 29 meg. Same clip,same size file output . The H264 look better also. Im sure Im doing something wrong as Apple says my file size should be smaller with pro res

Floris van Eck September 10th, 2007 12:54 PM

Thanks John. The problem is that I can select Apple Pro Res in the Sequence tab but not in the Capture tab. In the Capture tab, I only see HDV, HDV Apple Intermediate, DV, DVCPRO, DVCPRO HD but no Apple Pro Res. I also tried to make a custom template there but I cannot select Apple Pro Res.

So I must be doing something wrong I suppose but can't figure out what.

Added:

- Do I need a special capture card to achieve this?
- Do I need to have my camera connected before I can adjust my capture settings?

Andrew Kimery September 10th, 2007 01:30 PM

I don't think you can capture to ProRes over FW. You'd need a Kona or Blackmagic card.


-A

John Cash September 10th, 2007 02:15 PM

I will have to wait untill I get home. I will check it out then. Ill get back to you

David Knaggs September 10th, 2007 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Floris van Eck (Post 742069)
Thanks John. The problem is that I can select Apple Pro Res in the Sequence tab but not in the Capture tab. In the Capture tab, I only see HDV, HDV Apple Intermediate, DV, DVCPRO, DVCPRO HD but no Apple Pro Res. I also tried to make a custom template there but I cannot select Apple Pro Res.

So I must be doing something wrong I suppose but can't figure out what.

Added:

- Do I need a special capture card to achieve this?
- Do I need to have my camera connected before I can adjust my capture settings?

Hi Floris.

Andrew is correct. You definitely need a third party capture card for ProRes.

Here is a direct quote from the Apple website
( http://www.apple.com/finalcutstudio/specs.html ):

"Capturing HD resolution video using the ProRes 422 format requires a Mac Pro with an Intel Xeon processor or a G5 Quad computer and a qualified third-party capture card."

Floris van Eck September 11th, 2007 08:55 AM

Ok, thanks everyone. I missed that part.

Scott Shama September 11th, 2007 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Floris van Eck (Post 742490)
Ok, thanks everyone. I missed that part.

You don't want to do that anyway. Prores isn't for HDV it's for uncompressed HD. HDV is already compressed. Your render times will increase and your files will take up a lot more space than native hdv files. Edit in HDV.

Scott

Robert Ducon September 11th, 2007 07:22 PM

Simply edit in HDV?

This thread is about ProRes 422, capturing and editing. Yes, you need a 3rd party card - FireWire doesn't have the bandwith.

However, I just captured 170 GB worth of ProRes HQ 422 to my Mac Pro via HD-SDI (using my Decklink HD Extreme card, nanoConnect HDMI-to-HD-SDI convertor and my Canon HV20).

It's possible, works wonderfully, and EDITS wonderfully. 170 GB isn't poor at all for near uncompressed imagery.

Yes, the footage is stunningly good compared to HDV. So if you have an HD-SDI connector on your camera, the HD-SDI card on your Mac Pro would be a great addition!

Jim Fields September 11th, 2007 10:12 PM

Isn't it recorded on tape as Mpeg 2 anyway? You cant record HDV footage onto tape and expect uncompressed by importing with a capture card and ProRes, You would have to capture directly to the capture card while filming to bypass the cameras compression.

Am I wrong?

Sure, shoot with a SOny F900 or Vericam, yeah capture card and ProRes would be justified, but for me to import footage shot on my HD110U using an import card and prores would be pointless.

Again, am I wrong?

David Knaggs September 12th, 2007 12:43 AM

Jim, you are quite right.

While Floris asked the question as to what would be involved to actually capture the footage directly in ProRes (answer: a capture card), whether it's worthwhile to do so is covered very well in your post.

For any footage that is already compressed into HDV, it is far less expensive (than going out and purchasing a capture card) to capture natively in HDV over the FireWire into FCP. FCP will simply put a Quicktime wrapper around the footage without any transcoding or alteration. Then, if desired, one can convert into ProRes (or any other codec, even uncompressed) through FCP or Compressor.

Scott Shama September 12th, 2007 12:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Ducon (Post 742844)
Simply edit in HDV?

This thread is about ProRes 422, capturing and editing. Yes, you need a 3rd party card - FireWire doesn't have the bandwith.

However, I just captured 170 GB worth of ProRes HQ 422 to my Mac Pro via HD-SDI (using my Decklink HD Extreme card, nanoConnect HDMI-to-HD-SDI convertor and my Canon HV20).

It's possible, works wonderfully, and EDITS wonderfully. 170 GB isn't poor at all for near uncompressed imagery.

Yes, the footage is stunningly good compared to HDV. So if you have an HD-SDI connector on your camera, the HD-SDI card on your Mac Pro would be a great addition!

The majority of people using these camera don't do it the way you are. They record to tape then capture via firewire. What is the color space off the sensor in the canon? The higher end canons do see benefit in the workflow you describe but I don't know about the HV20.


The original request was...
"Then there is live capture but what I want is to capture from tape to my Mac through firewire"

So, to reiterate what Jim said..
If you recorded to tape in your camera you would have recorded to HDV correct? You can never make it better than that even if you convert it to 10bit uncompressed. You will still have only recorded it to tape in HDV and HDVs color space.

So you (not you personally since you used your hdmi out to HD-SDI) just wasted 170gb of hard drive space (1 hour of footage?) when you could have just edited native hdv in approx 50GB.

Converting HDV to Prores is misguided and a terrible waste of resources unless you are doing heavy effects and compositing. At least that's my 2 cents from reading the Proress white paper.

Recording live from your XL-H1 out HD-SDI thru a capture card into prores(or some other uncompressed codec) is the only way to get better than HDV quality out of your camera.

Cheers,
Scott

Jim Fields September 12th, 2007 01:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Knaggs (Post 742934)
Jim, you are quite right.

While Floris asked the question as to what would be involved to actually capture the footage directly in ProRes (answer: a capture card), whether it's worthwhile to do so is covered very well in your post.

For any footage that is already compressed into HDV, it is far less expensive (than going out and purchasing a capture card) to capture natively in HDV over the FireWire into FCP. FCP will simply put a Quicktime wrapper around the footage without any transcoding or alteration. Then, if desired, one can convert into ProRes (or any other codec, even uncompressed) through FCP or Compressor.


What I dont understand is some of the work flows people put themselves into.

Example..
I shoot weddings and other events in 720P30 I do so as all of my content is going to DVD, I seem to have alot of motion blur using 24P (due to some sudden camera moves)
I open FCP, choose Easy set up, choose HDV 720P30, import, edit, export, burn a standard DVD. Now in alot of cases I wont need to render, FCP set my program up with the easy setup to make it so I dont need to render. If I ad text, Motion files, Live Type files, and transitions, and filters yes I need to render, however the footage looks much better than if I shot it with a Sony DSR250 so why would I worry about "upconverting" "Converting to another codec" etc.

Sure, not alot of people can afford 6 Terabytes of drive storage, I cant, but I had to, storing clients projects for 6 months does suck, but I dont have to keep the actual footage on the drive, delete the footage, and if needed, you can re-capture later. However drive space is not an issue. Even with a 750GB drive in my machine right now, I have 11 projects in full, and room for more importing.

So what is the real reason for issues? I dont want to come off as a dick, but did Apple not put easy setups in FCP for a reason? Sure ProRes sounds nice, cuts back on file size a little...maybe, but what is the point? No matter what, if the final product is a Standard Definition DVD, ProRes, DVC Pro HD, XD Cam, DVCAM, etc is all going to be the same file type in the long run.
Why make it hard on yourself, save the time you would spend messing around with FCP and trying to gain a few extra mb's per second data rates and use what Apple gave you. Take that time your saving and spend it on the project to get it out, and then you can get paid.

Of the 300 wedding I have done, not one has been with any special codec, no Cineform, no ProRes, no weird Quicktime format made from moon dust, just good old fashion Easy setup, and in doing so I am able to knock them out quick.

So why? why use those codecs?

Sorry if it seems like a rant, it is but not. I help alot of local people un-f&%$ their workflow so they can make money, these local companies/people are so worried about sounding, looking and trying to be "Hollywood" by using the most messed up workflow's I have ever seen. People using 1000.00 capture cards for cameras and decks that have firewire, when they shot in HDV and try to up-convert, messing with sequence settings beyound repair, and wondering why they must render each and every clip before they can even view it. It is a mess. FCP can be sooo simple to use, and yet be so advanced.

Scott Shama September 12th, 2007 02:40 AM

Amen brother!

Cheers,
Scott

Floris van Eck September 12th, 2007 06:35 AM

Thanks everyone. Great feedback. I will stay with HDV for now. Seems to work fine and I don't want to invest $1300 in a capture card. I do have a question however. Which type of HDV is recommend? I can capture HDV or HDV using the Apple Intermediate? Which one works best with HDV? (I am shooting with the Canon XL-H1 and capture through firewire).


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