Monitor Choice Help! Apple vs Dell?
 

I know there have been a few posts like this before but I'm still not convinced and am still stuck.

In the next 48 hours or so I'm going to buy a Mac Pro, I know what spec im going to get etc... but I really don't know what monitor to get.

Its between the obvious Apple Cin 23/4 " HD Cinema Display

or the new Dell Ultrasharp 2408WFP 24".

Literally someone please help me. I will be using the monitor for HD video editing. I own a Canon XHA1 and am currently making a film for the British Army.

The other annoying thing is that I believe Apple are working on a new monitor which could be released at anypoint so is this more reason to go for the cheaper Dell now?

Also, from someone with a Dell, is the colour "offness" really that bad, in the big scheme of things is it that much of a con?

Would appreciate any help,

Best,

Giles B

Also can I plug a PS3 into the Dell?

You've no doubt read all my stuff on my Dell 2408. Yes, it has every input you'd ever want so PS3 will plug in. However, the component in is not good at all for direct input from a HDV camera.

Regarding colour, yes it has a warmer/redder hue compared to most of the competition. I'd say it handles normal video (std definition) OK and HD video OK.... but not spectacularly well. I honestly think my Samsung 32 inch HDTV makes a better job of HD video playback. However, as a PC monitor it's stunning (i.e. for really, really sharp graphics like when you're editing and have a huge screen of intricate clips/complex multi-track timeline in front of you....sheer bliss!)

I've no idea about the Apple option. Not sure if the above helps or not as I'm sure you'd want several views before making the plunge but I offer mine anyway...nothing is perfect and it will be instantly superceded by something better the moment you buy it for sure!!!!!

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=116972

The DELL has more inputs including HDMI for connecting your PS3 although you can also use component.

Some like the Apple better, most are really happy with the DELL.

I don't think you can go wrong either way. However, you can't hook up your PS3 to the Cinema Display.

George/

Cheers for the tips Andy, much appreciated, but my lack of tech knowledge lets me down in situations like this. When it comes to words and stuff like component in and out I have no idea what is going on :)

All I know is that I plug my camera in via firewire, log the clips and begin editing, then onto dvd and I'm very competent with all that tech stuff, its Hardware tech that I'm bad at. Thats as far as it goes for me. In terms of how you describe how the monitor 'handles' the video, to me I start thinking of the physical computer handling it. I don't understand how the monitor 'handles' it as such. Everything looks so stunning on the apple and I know it works, I just dont know if I should go for something a little more up-to-date though, or go for the cheaper Dell and wait until Apple reveal their new monitors then buy one?

I think what I need is advice from someone whos had hands both of the monitors, not sure how likely that is going to be though.

The more I read also, the more it seems like these Dell monitors are a nightmare with colour, they sound terrible out of the box and I keep seeing all of these graphs by DeltaE I dont understand :) How easy is it to configure them? Is there a program that can do it?

Lastly, Andy where did you get your 2408 from, I just saw this but the price seems too good to be true, especially as the Dell website has it up for around £600, you reckon you could take a look for me? (Scroll about half way down)

http://www.pcbuyit.co.uk/dept.asp?de...pt%5Fname=Dell

Thanks again,

Giles

OK, I know from a long thread on AV Forum that many have bought from PCbuyit. I personally bought from Dell (at 430 quid a while back).

Regarding firewire - yes, that's what you do when you capture (to your computer's hard drive) from the camcorder - the firewire plugs into the graphics card and then software enables you to get it into your NLE.

What I was talking about is component which is basically the 3 video "components" of the picture for when I just want to view stuff off my camcorder WITHOUT capturing it to the computer (the PC box does not even need to be turned on for doing this, just the monitor....of course!)

The way the Dell 2408WFP "handles" this video coming in on component or from say .m2t files on my hard drives and watched with the VLC player is a bit less sharp, a little more "jittery" than the otherwise stunning high resolution picture I get if I just plug our HDV camcorders (HC1 and V1) into my Samsung HDTV - that has a lot more clarity and smoothness with any movement and is always razor sharp. Mind you, the Dell is still pretty good and will get a "wow" response from Joe Public, it just depends how anal you are about all these things. I'm no expert in all this but my guess would be that the video processing chip in the Dell monitor is inferior to the very good one that Samsung put in my TV (which cost a lot more than my Dell monitor, by the way!) It's not just about lots of pixels on a big LCD, it's about how a moving HD video is portrayed on all those pixels (scaling etc.)...this is how I see it anyway and some makers do it better than others.

Now for still (or mostly still graphics images) the Dell is a stunner and this is what I bought it for and use it primarily for - basic PC use and NLE of increasingly complex projects on a lovely big screen. Just for reference, the Samsung HDTV is awfull - just has not got the resolution/clarity needed for PC work (in my opinion).

When I want to watch HD video I'll go and watch my Samsung (via PS3). When I'm creating HD video using my NLE (Vegas) I do it on my Dell monitor. Both are ideal for for MY specific uses and these might be different to yours. Hope this helps!!!!

ah ok cool cool thats good info thank you again for that. Gosh what a dilemma :)

I really wanted to buy it all today but I think I'm going to have to sleep on it. Hopefully afew more bods will post their opinion which might help.

Cheers again for the help Andy,

Giles

same boat here. waiting for WWDC or look for second option...dell 24 or samsun 24. So far. can't wait longer for apple.

Anyone know how easy it is to calibrate the Dell so that the colours are right? Is there a program I can download to do it?

Hi again. If you look in the sticky section at the top of the "SDTV/HDTV Monitor" part of this Forum (one of the topics in the Tools section) you will see lots of information on how to calibrate monitors for either NTSC or PAL land use in a long thread called "Calibrating Monitors". As always DVinfo is a mine of information.....it's just knowing where to look (or do a quick search).

That being said, I have n't done this on my Dell for the reasons already stated regarding how I use this particular screen. I actually monitor my video on a second LCD display anyway as Vegas easily allows 2 monitor working - assuming you have a good enough dual output (" dual head") graphics card.

This thread is becoming mostly me and my experiences with my Dell 2408WFP....surely there are many more of you who have this monitor and can comment!

Giles, I've had the same concerns about a LCD monitor as you seem to be having, and had high hopes for the 2408. Having read all I could find on it and pouring over the manual as much as possible, I came to the conclussion that it wasn't going to be sutable for honest color reproduction, simply because it doesn't have all the controls necessary for calibrating as I would like to have.

A lot of it comes down to how you will be driving it out of your mac... if you're just going to hook it up like a standard computer monitor, I'm sure it would work quite well for normal NLE work, just don't expect too much from the color side of the equation. If on the other hand you're going to connect it thru a matrox box and calibrate as a video monitor (not PC) then it might be closer to acceptable. Same can really be said about the ACD.

For what it's worth, I'm saving up my sheckels for a LaCie 324, which has much better control of the color space, and suits my connections and application better.

Mark

Mark, I believe you are setting the bar pretty high. Basically no LCD connected to you Graphics card will give you broadcast monitor suitable for "pro" color correction. One exception is using a Matrox MXO with your Mac (and then the Dell or Apple will do equally well). The LaCie has the same (or very similar) LCD panel as the DEL 2408 using the same "wide gamut" backlight.

Giles, if you want a no fuss good quality "system" just add the Apple display to your Mac Pro order. If you believe the Dell is a better deal, you can use that too; at the very least it has more connectors.

You will be happy with either. [that's an order, not a promise ;-) ]

If you need a broadcast level monitor for color grading, add an MXO to the mix. It will allow you calibrate either display and will even show interlaced footage correctly. Beats shelling out $4k+ for a dedicated monitor. Read more about the MXO in other posts here and reviews all over the net. You will need a 2nd monitor.

If your color grading is not "critical" you can probably get by just fine with the computer display of your choice. Both of these are prety much "on par". Don't use Samsung "home" line of monitors or the 3-digit Dells.

George/

That was kinda my point... by itself it just isn't going to cut it.

The LaCie basically has the same limitations in technology but makes up for it (somewhat) with electronics. Specifically, it has 10 bit internal LUTs for both gamma and color which will allow for better gradiant reproduction. Also it has the capability to adjust both the primary and secondary colors to some degree. Something not found on many monitors in its price range. So with this kind of adjustments possible and a BM intensity card (which I already have) one should be able to come close to what the matrox would provide without the expense. I suppose if I didn't already have the intensity I'd be saving up for the mxo as well. I make no claims that this configuration would be as good as a broadcast monitor, but for less than a grand ($1250 if you include the intensity) it would be as good as I could get for HD playback and color.

Mark

For starters you can just use the software which comes with every Mac. Go to System Preferences and click on Displays. Click the Color button at the top, then click the Calibrate... button on the righthand side. This will open the Display Calibrator Assistant. Before proceeding, click the Expert Mode checkbox on the lower lefthand side of the window. Now just follow the instructions and you should have your monitor in the right ballpark.

Boyd do you think this would work if I attatched the Dell 2408? Or would the mac only recognize the ACD?

The most annoying thing about all of this is that I know Apple will release some bad ass state of the art new HD monitor as soon as I click buy on either of them.

Thats why I'm almost tempted just to grit and bare the colours of the Dell until Apple release their new screen, and also as its slightly cheaper. What do you think?

Also, I'm just wondering whether all of this colour stuff is far beyond my needs. After all I'm still not a professional, so I don't need to conform to all of this broadcast colour stuff, in the big scheme of things, what I see on either screen will pretty much be what I get on the finished DVD when played on a television or another computer no?

Giles

The display calibration assistant works with any kind of screen plugged into your Mac, but that doesn't mean your display will suddenly become "broadcast quality".

I think you should just relax, enjoy the new computer and follow George's advice:

"Giles, if you want a no fuss good quality "system" just add the Apple display to your Mac Pro order. If you believe the Dell is a better deal, you can use that too; at the very least it has more connectors.

You will be happy with either. [that's an order, not a promise ;-) ]
"

After you get more comfortable with the new system you can decide if you want to spend the additional money needed for a broadcast quality monitor. Personally, I've had a 24" Apple Cinema display for nearly 4 years and love it. But it certainly wasn't cheap when I bought it...

Just bought the Dell! However thisevening I'm also going to get the mac with the ACD too! The only way I'm going to know for sure is to compare the both of them, then I'm going to send the loser home.

Not sure if Apple accept refunds actually,anyone know? I can just sell it if not.

I'll post up here once I've played with both of them and let you all know what I think.

Delivery is the 10th of June! Mental but never mind.

Thanks to all who posted for me,

Best,

Giles B

Hi Giles,

Great solution you came up with. Now I would keep 'm both and add an MXO. Then you'd be set!

George/

Good luck! Many will be very interested in how these two compare. Look forward to reading it all in mid June!

Heh, that's the kind of question you really should ask before you order! Since you're in the UK I don't know what the policy is. Did you buy through the Apple Store online or a dealer? At the US Apple store, scroll down to the bottom the the homepage and click on the link "sales and refunds" and you will see a very clear explanation of their policy. I'm sure can easily be found on international sites as well. In the US the policy is as follows:

If you bought your computer elsewhere then check with the vendor for their return policy. Regardless - congratulations! I think George has the right idea actually :-)

I wish I was wealthy enough to buy all of that and keep both screens but I am unfortunately a student. Maybe one day though.

Was wondering if anybody knew a good link where I could find out some settings for the Dell screen or how I can actually configure the thing?

(Dell Screen arriving Monday 2nd, Apple stuff est 12th :)

Giles

Well in that case you really should have read Apple's return policy first. If it's similar to the US policy, you will pay a 10% restocking charge plus the return shipping (which would be more than $100 here). I suppose you could just consider this "rental" for the use of the monitor...

Giles, how did it go with the Dell 2408WFP???? There's a guy on this thread who I'm sure would like to know.

http://dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.ph...807#post893807

indeed i would!

:)

Actually, I would too!!!

I'm strongly leaning towards getting a Mac Pro 8 core/Raid set-up and am wondering about getting a (second) Dell 2408WFP (I have one already as some of you know). My 4 year old Windows box with Vegas 7 will then get robbed of this 2408 and it's original "small" monitors returned to it as it will then become my back-up/emergency editing kit whilst I learn Final Cut Studio and how to use a Mac with Two Dell 2408WFP (I feel a big smile if I can pull this off!)....well that's the plan if I can arrange my finances to afford all this .....as I want a new Sony Z7 camcorder as well! (even bigger smile!)

How have you found the 2408wfp? any problems? My finances have become slightly tighter so it looks like the ACD is off the cards for a while

Dell 2408WFP is superb.....that's why I want another one!!!! It's only weakness is that component in looks a bit naff (see detail I put in one of the Dell 2408WFP threads about that.) It's a mid to top end computer monitor (in my price range that is!), well priced, well made and with tons of useful inputs. This Dell gives (in my opinion) much more natural flesh tones as the colour is more red than one typically sees on PC monitors (usually they are too blue/green). I've seen no ghosting or green tinges. It's also capable of being VERY bright if you have a strongly lit/multi-windowed (i.e. non-ideal) work environment. It's a GREAT monitor. What it's not is a broadcast monitor to be used for critical colour correction work...but hey its 422 quid you know! (and neither is the Apple Cinema Display for that matter, despite it's much higher price).

Only other thing I'd say is that I read somewhere (UK AV Forum I think, in the very long Dell Ultrasharp thread in their Monitor section) that Dell is going to sell them with a firmware revision in July (which is only a couple of weeks away). It might be worth finding out more about that (what exactly it is to fix - maybe it's to sharpen/fix the component in?) - maybe someone could e-mail Dell and see what they find out???

Edit: I found the post (in a thread about the Dell 2408 that's currently 207 posts long on AVForum!) Here's what one guy posted as a response from Dell.

"While the currently shipping Dell 2408WFP monitor meets both Dell and industry standard specifications, we have been closely listening to your feedback on the Dell Community Forum. Based on your comments, Dell is working to incorporate a number of improvements into the 2408WFP as a firmware update for new monitors scheduled to ship in mid-July. This firmware update features greater control over sharpness settings, improved power save recovery, and less input lag. Current 2408WFP owners whose specific usage scenario may benefit from the firmware update should contact Dell Technical Support after Mid July to receive the firmware update. If you have any questions please feel free to post them here or contact Dell Technical Support."

Taken from Dell official.

Andy you legend! That's very helpful, thanks for your post :)

I'm going to go with the Dell but not sure if im going to wait until mid July to order one, especially if i can get the update from dell and run it.. not sure how i would update a monitor though?

Thanks again

Stick

I think (BUT I DON'T KNOW FOR SURE) that you would have to return the monitor to Dell for Firmware update. It's not something that can be done by the end user. This is from someone's comments on AVForum (and he may be guessing, I really don't know). I'm probably going to wait until end of July before placing the order for this particular item - assuming I still want a second one then.

My first one will stay put - no way is it going back to Dell with risk of damage/swap with another one for a few minor firmware tweaks. I know mine's a good one/I'm very happy with it so will keep it.

Glad you're finding my stuff on this monitor useful - that's why I post it all but it's always nice to get the "thankyou" replies! Many on here have helped me in the past so this is my chance to "give something back" to this great community.

Edit: Also, see here:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=124025