help w/FCP4 and DVX100
 

I'm asking this question for a friend of mine who I'm making a short with. Were using FCP/DVx100 using 24pa. When capturing footage we initially removed the 2-3-3-2 pulldown in the capture settings window. The problem was that when we moved the clip into the timeline it wouldn't play because it needed to rendered. The words "unrendered" would go up in the preview window.

We then captured normally with no pulldown removal and the clip works fine. I thought you were supposed to remove pulldown on capture and insert it again when you render. What is going wrong here?

Would I use something like Cinema tools or is that for 24p not advanced? Is Cinema Tools bundled with FCP4

It could be capture or sequence settings, or the wrong 24 fps mode. I think most people want 24p (not pa) unless they are definetly going to film. What is the end product of your project, film, DVD, video, broadcast?

dvd/video. Isn't the 2-3-3-2 removal for 24pa? I didn't see an option for 2-3 pulldown removal for 24p in the Capture Settings window. Then again I didn't use cinema tools. Isn't there some sort of whitepaper or whatever for the dvx100 and fcp4 like there is for Vegas 4.

Jake, you know that item in the bin (I think it's called the bin... don't have FCP in front of me now) that exists with all of your clips that is labeled "Sequence 1"? Right click that and select "settings". Choose 24 fps (do this BEFORE you start working with the timeline). The timeline window will disappear. Double click on the "Sequence 1" thing and it'll pop back up. Now you can drag and drop your 24p footage to the timeline and edit without rendering.

Good luck reintroducing the 3:2 pulldown to your finished product though, as the Mac is incapable. Apparently no one at Apple has yet thought of that. Your ONLY option for smooth playback will be to export it as an M2V file, burn it to DVD and let the player do the pulldown.

Yes, Cinema Tools is bundled with Final Cut Pro 4, but I have yet to have a reason to use it. I launched it and it didn't seem like it did much, but I am not a Cinema Tools expert so don't take my word for it.

Could I re insert it in Vegas? Like somehow print to a dv tape recapture in vegas then reinsert it then. I thought 24p was a supported format in FCP. I mean isn't the pulldown insertion important? Can't cinema tools do this? Is cinema tools purchased seperately?

Basically the situation is that we have shot one scene in 24pa so far. The next scene will be shot Saturday. What would you guys do?

I'm confused.

I posted a similar question in the PC forum on this site, but it hasn't gotten a response yet. A friend of mine says there is some app (forget what it is called) that can take the jitter frames out of 24pa fotoage and then reinsert them after editing is completed. I hope someone in Apple-land thinks of something similar soon.

For now the Windows PC seems more capable than the Mac when it comes to editing 24p footage. You might want to post a few questions in the PC forum to find out for sure.

Well I know that it works in there. But isn't the insertion of the pulldown integral to operating in 24p. I understand what your saying about the dvd player. But we will submit this to the film festival in VHS. Dvd will be for personal use. Do all dvd players have pulldown?

Thank you though for figuring out the whole rendering thing. Is there anyway we could edit it in FCP export it to Vegas and reinsert the pulldown with Vegas 4. I know this sounds impractical...like why don't you just edit it all in Vegas. But Vegas is at my house FCP is at my friends house and most of the editing has to be done there.

do any of the updates resolve this?

What Final Cut Pro will do is simply repeat every third frame depending on how you have things set up in the System Settings of FCP. But no matter what you do, it can't reinsert the jitter frames back in. If you know it works in Vegas, use that. I know it DOESN'T work on the Mac, even with FCP 4.0.2 (the latest version). I must be the first person to edit in 24p on a Mac, otherwise you think they would have solved this long ago. I really hope I am wrong and someone points out a solution, though.

PS - Move your computers for a week :)

Not a bad idea I seriously wish I could. You know we might have to. Problem is this is a family computer, well just my brother and he has lots of homework etc...

Anyways is M2V a compressed format? Is there anyway to get our edited footage out of FCP uncompressed and into my computer uncompressed in an AVI file? Or can you render as .mov put it onto a storage device than put it into my computer and convert .mov to .avi w/no loss. Holy crap we might as well edit it in Vegas. I don't want to insult anybody but the lack of pulldown insertion seems ridicuolous. Doesn't Cinema Tools reinsert pulldown though? I remember hearing that somewhere.

Have you tried Cinema Tools? Does it come with FCP. My friend doesn't seem to know either, well not yet.

I eat my words! I was wrong!!!! I am VERY happy about being wrong!

The solution is to set the timeline to 23.98 frames per second, not 24 like I have been doing. Woo hoo! This will introduce the jitter frames upon playback

Below is an example I just tried. This was originally 24p video and the following link is the jitter frame that is properly introduced when you set things right! Woo hoo!
http://207.168.10.82/oc/jitter.jpg

I am not sure if older versions of FCP let you select 23.98 though. Check and see.

and this solves the problem with pulldown insertion? Does it matter? If your excited I'm excited!

Yup. Just capture as normal, removing the pulldown. Set your timeline to 23.98fps. Edit your heart away. Print to Video and capture with the camera. The file on the tape will have the proper pulldown.

I haven't tried this by exporting a file and saving it to the hard drive to see if it also had the jitter frames, but I am just happy that at least I have this way. I'm sure it would probably work that way as well. I'll have to see sometime.

You guys need to be very specific about the use of 24p and 24pa. They will have different pulldowns, different fps (as you discovered, Ted) may require reverse telecine (depending on usage etc.) Cinema Tools is in FCP 4, but is only required if you going back to film. Are either of you going back to film?

no I'm not going back to film, well I wasn't in film in the first place.
So 24pa I would want to use the 2-3-3-2 removal correct, which would be under capture settings? Then what about the fps in the timeline like Ted had set? 23.98? Where do you insert the pulldown if thats what you do? Then sequence settings with the same pulldown removal? I'm going to get to spend some more time w/this stuff tommorrow but anything you guys can tell me before I go over there would help a ton (has no internet).

I select the 3:2:3:2 pulldown for the timeline. It just plays back from the timeline that way. But you are actually editing at 24fps. I didn't see any other option in the capture menu other than to remove the jitter frame on 24p/a (2-3-3-2). So shoot in 24p/a and then save the file as a regular 3:2 when you go back to tape. 24p/a is still sort of stuttery upon playback.

but 24p is smoother right. If so I will shoot the rest of the film in 24p instead of advanced. Its only a short scene anyways and this is really our first time.

oh ok, it just wasn't very clear if the jitter w/24pa was resolved. I got ya on the 24p stuff though.

Hey ted is your 24pa footage stuttery upon playback in the timeline before or after 2-3 pulldown is inserted?

I read somewhere that 24pa footage with 2-3 pulldown inserted is the same as 24p footage with the pulldown. They are only different before. Like 24p footage is for displaying on NTSC in 30fps, and 24pa is if you want a truer 24p project like for a film transfer, or 24p dvd. BUT if you apply 2-3 pulldown to the 24pa footage then it will play back properly in the NTSC 30fps format.

So if the 24pa footage is jittery before the pulldown then that is normal I am thinking.

I am a bit confused by your post, but I'll type what I know:

24p - record like this in the Panasonic camera and you'll get two jitter frames in a row (proper 3:2) pulldown. This is exactly the way all 24 fps movies are converted for playback on NTSC TVs.

24p Advanced - This has one jitter frame in a row, and therefore it looks a bit more jerky upon playback on an NTCS TV. This frame is removed when converting to a 24p DV file.

When you choose 3:2:3:2 from the timeline in FCP4 (I don't have FCP right in front of me), it plays back from the timeline (and Print to Video) with the 3:2 pulldown automatically inserted, and it looks like a 24fps movie converted to TV. You can also choose the middle option which is actually the "advanced" pulldown, but that looks a little more stuttery and is unacceptable for the final project in my opinion.

what menu are you inserting the pulldown in. I know where to remove it and I changed the timeline to 23.98 etc works perfect, but when I export to .mov or like print to tape, where do you insert the pulldown, do you insert it before this somewhere.

Well I was told that 24pa with 2-3 pulldown is essentially the same as 24p when played back on NTSC. Like 24pa can be true 24p but when you insert 2-3 pulldown to it its more like 24p normal.

I haven't noticed any real jitter at all as far as I've gone.

You have to use Final Cut Pro 4, and the pulldown is under the playback tab of the System Settings menu. And it just plays back that way, as I think I've said many times before.

sorry I'm used to Vegas where the pulldown insertion happens upon export not playback. I catch you now. I'll leave you alone.

On a side note, I tried exporting some 24pa footage onto a dv tape yesterday from FCP4. It said that the computer wasn't fast enough to perform 2-3-2-3 pulldown, I think it was the 2-3 pulldown or whatever. And that lower quality output may result. I went ahead and did it anyway. What does FCP 4 do when this happens? Does it insert pulldown at all? Does it insert pulldown badly or something? Would I be screwed unless I did the final pulldown in Vegas or something?

Jake, what did it look like when you played it in the timeline, after going back to tape? Jake, your going to have to experiment to discover what works and what doesn't work on your system. You're not going to hurt your system, camera, tape or any other component in your system. When you report what your results are and what different methods and settings you've tried, we'll be better able to make constructive suggestions.

Well I used FCP's print to video feature to get the 24pa footage to dv tape. It gave me that message about the comp not being fast enough for 2-3 pulldown insertion but I went ahead anyway.

I captured the footage into Vegas and allowed pulldown to be removed. It all looks well and good in Vegas though I'm not sure what I am looking for if its wrong. Its not stuttery or anything seems fine.

One question though. So if FCP did insert 2-3 pulldown than my footage isn't true 24p anymore is it? Can FCP insert advanced pulldown? What I wanted to do is insert 2-3 pulldown for the video tape version than render a second version with the 2-3-3-2 pulldown for a 24pDVD. Is this not possible in FCP? I know I can do this in Vegas but if FCP inserted 2-3 pulldown is it still possible to get back down to true 24p?

I really need to find out what happens when you press "ok" in the print to video feature when it says the comp isn't fast enough for 2-3-2-3 pulldown insertion.

Try it with a short clip. It may freeze, it may do the pulldown or it may just not perform the action.

I did it with a short clip. It works seemingly fine. I'm just wondering what it attempted. I mean if it did do a crap job of 2-3 pulldown I guess I wouldn't know because Vegas 4 removes it for me. Right? Oh by the way what is 2:2:2:4 pulldown and how does it factor into all this. It seems to be what I have to have it set to to playback in FCP.

I think I'm good to go though otherwise thanks for the help guys.

2:2:2:4 pulldown just repeats every fourth frame I believe. No jitter frames. You don't want to convert back to advanced pulldown, because advanced pulldown only exists to make the jitter frame easier to remove on capture. It is not designed to be the ideal playback format. Advanced pulldown can look stuttery on pans/whatnot and is not a good choice for a final product. Just because it has the word "advanced" doesn't mean it's better, just easier.

is it better or worse than 2-3?

Nothing is better than 2:3:2:3 as far as pulldown is concerned. That's what the DVX100 records in when you just pick regular 24p. Advanced (24pa) is more stuttery. And of course 2:2:2:4 is the worst. Only use that mode to edit with if your computer is too slow to insert the proper 2:3:2:3 pulldown.

In your case, I think I'd recommend just shooting everything in regular (not advanced) 24p and editing on a 29.97 fps timeline. It will work fine, and you'll still have that 24 frames per second look, and it won't require massive amounts of CPU to play back properly.

well thats what I'm doing next time. Well if the editing will be done on my PC then I will shoot 24pa. I'm sorry but I've had a much easier time dealing with 24pa in Vegas. Part of that is due to the fact that my computer is faster.