Clean Compress to DV NTSC Anamorphic?
 

This includes compress to DV NTSC (not anamorphic)...

I just CAN'T seem to get a clean compression to DV NTSC Anamorphic, or DV NTSC (not Anamorphic) out of any format on my HM700! The resulting video looks like it has horizontal line artifacts.. kind looks like a Moire' pattern, only just horizontal lines. I've tried shooting in 1080i and 1080p and 1440i and 1440p and 720p. Nothing helps except to play out the video through the firewire port squeezed and capture in real-time to Final Cut. Even then, it's not as clean as a video shot naturally to the DV format. Anyone resolve this issue?

Don Smith
NewsVideo.com

I don't think how you are shooting will have anything to do with it. How are you making your DVD file?

What workflows have you used so far? I get great looking anamorphic dvds from 1080 24p on the HM700, and did before with 720 24p from HD200 (same codec).
This is using finalcut, direct output to compressor in FCP studio 2.

Compress to DV Artifacts

The link above will show you what I get when I try to compress any resolution out of my HM700 to DV or DV Anamorphic using Compressor. The Client wants DV NTSC 16x9. Any workflow that can give me a clean DV or DV Anamorphic file would be appreciated. One of you suggested compressing to MPEG-2 by using a DVD setting in Compressor. Is that the only way?

Thanks,
Don Smith
NewsVideo.com

Use Export->Quicktime Conversion-> set your settings (use preserve aspect ratio option).

Thanks for the suggestion, but no joy.

I tried QT Conversion to Quicktime Movie with 16x9 selected, and QT Conversion to DV Stream with 169 selected. Came out with the right dimensions, but STRONG horizontal line artifacting.

One shot really stands out badly. The woman is wearing a top with horizontal stripes. You'd think she was wearing a kaleidoscope.

The "Preserve Aspect Ratio" only allows to choose between letterboxing and cropped, FYI.

Here's a better example:

HM700 Export to DV with Artifacting

You can clearly see the artifacting going on. This was exported from Final Cut using QT Conversion and choosing 16x9, but I get the same artifacting if I don't retain 16x9 and I get the same results if I use Compressor and every other trick in the book. And, it's not just the woman's top; it's all through every export and affects any nearly horizontal line. Exporting to DVD (MPEG-2) looks great, but the client wants DV NTSC Anamorphic.

I see your problem. When you export DV NTSC it will interlace your footage (NTSC is 480i by default). What you see in interlacing of the picture. Try export ProRes 422 and build DVD out of ProRes. ProRes is still MPEG-2, so no transcoding needed, but I will not interlace your footage. It looks like there is no more 480/30p or 480/24p options in Quicktime conversion.

I'm not sure where everyone is getting the idea that I want to build a DVD. I don't. I want to convert to DV. Using a DVD conversion setting in Compressor yields beautiful results, but that's not what the client wants. He wants my HD material converted to DV NTSC Anamorphic. An expert friend suggested that the default in Compressor wants to set 4000kbps data rate and to turn it down to 1000kpbs, but no where can I find where to do that. I can only turn down the quality slider, but whether I use the Best, Least or in-between, the Moire' effect is still there.

You answered your own question. While exporting MPEG-2 you retain progressive quality of frames, even if you downsize the number of lines. When exporting DV NTSC you are interlacing the footage. I don't think data rate has anything to do with this issue.

To get the best result out of compressor you need to experiment with the encoder settings, you need to use the very best settings for both scaling and interlacing.
The other thing that you might try is use mpeg streamclip, which gives a very good conversion to Quick Time DV, however you need to go in and change the presets to correspond to what your needs are, you must especially be sure that you turn interlace scaling on. Of course you must also check in either converter that the field order is set correctly.

regards
Ian Skurrie

Ian, MPEG Streamclip did the trick! Thanks very, very much for that suggestion.

But, it begs the question; why can't Compressor do the same thing?

The resulting file had a .dv extension. I changed it to .mov and it works fine. The client is expecting a 16x9 DV NTSC Anamorphic .mov file and that's what I now have.

Again, many thanks.

Don Smith
NewsVideo.com

Don,
I'm glad it worked.I think Compressor can do the same thing however you need to get into the menus and create your own presets using high quality scaling and interlacing options.I would give you a step by step description however compressor is broken on my computer at the moment (it comes up with a message indicating it can't find codecs) and it requires a reinstall of compressor which I need to do research on before I attempt it.

regards
Ian Skurrie

Ian, when you get Compressor working again, download my 3-second 720p clip and try to convert it to DV NTSC Anamorphic and tell me what you get. I get Moire' artifacts on horizontal lines. It's not just this shot, either. It's all through the video.

Actually, this request is for anyone willing to see the artifacts I'm getting and have an idea of how to fix it in Compressor. It's just a challenge and it's academic since MPEG Streamclip (at Ian's suggestion) did the conversion just fine.

Some people think I'm trying to convert the video for the Web and I am not, so please, no admonishments for doing it wrong to bring my video to the Web (which I can do without a problem). I was just trying to get the original 720p footage compressed to a DV NTSC Anamorphic file because that's what the client asked for. It was not for the Web.

Here's the tiny sample clip:

3-second 720p sample

For my 720P60 material, when I need to supply to DV, I place the HDV clip on a DV timeline, render and Export using Current Settings and I get clean DV files.

I tried that to see what you were talking about.

Using the built in DV preset there isn't a scaling setting turned on so that is probably causing the problems you are seeing. In the 3rd tab "Frame Controls" turn them on and set them to better or best and that should fix your problems. There is still some jaggedness on the red striped but that is on the HD file. I would turn off sharpening in your camera. If you want to sharpen then do that as the last step not in the camera if you are planning on manipulating your video in some way. Resizing is a manipulation.

Just to make sure we are talking about the same thing.
720p to DV no scaling
http://elvisripley.com/stuff/ftp/hm1...no_Scaling.zip

720p to DV best scaling
http://elvisripley.com/stuff/ftp/hm1...st_Scaling.zip

That's my point Shaun, I don't get a clean conversion. That's why I would like others to try with the sample video in my above note and tell me their results. If others get the Moire' artifacts, then something else is at work and I'd like to sleuth it out. If others DON'T get the same result, then something is buggering my Mac Pro.

Did you look at my videos? Was what I got the same thing as what you got? Did my second video look like the one you liked from MPEG Stream clip?

Donald that is some NASTY interlacing artifacting.

No idea what's causing that.

Shaun, yes, I looked at them and the trouble exists in both samples. Now, take a look at that same clip processed by MPEG Streamclip:

http://newsvideo.com/720ptoDVStreamclip.mov.zip

This link didn't work.

Sorry about the bad link. The "t" in "To" should be capitalized:

http://newsvideo.com/720pToDVStreamclip.mov.zip

Say you shoot 720p. That's 720 lines of horizontal resolution and every field is scanned whole. Now you downsize it to 480i (That's what DV NTSC is). Not only you drop pretty much every third line, but also you show only even and odd lines in each frame. In FCP5 in the compressor settings there used to be 30p and 24p. In FCS2 Compressor there is only DV NTSC, which is 480i. My head spins why would they remove 480/30p and 48024p? Anyway, you can use third party apps, like Toast or Streamclip. What I would try in the Compressor would be to pop it out as XDCAM, but scale it down to 480 lines progressive and then run again through compressor to turn in into DV NTSC (480p to 480i anamorphic).

The original footage is XDCAM EX in a Quicktim .mov wrapper. That's how the camera shoots it. I tried to first convert to everything in the book and then to DV NTSC and no joy. Converting first to MPEG-2 gave it a nice look, so I then took the MPEG-2 file and converted it to DV NTSC and, the artifacts came back!

Keep in mind that this is all academic now since MPEG Streamclip saved my bacon! Now, I'd just like to know what's happening with Compressor.

Donald, I guess this is just crappy program for interlacing footage. Looks like things get mangled during interlace process. My point was to export it as XDCAM codec, but instead 720 or 1080 use 480 in the settings. Then interlace it to 480i.
I'll try it next week, as I am too busy right now.
I know it is academic, but I would also like to know the answer to this one, as I might run into the same request in the future.

Robert: I understand what you're saying but MY downconverts from 720P (on JVC HD200u at 60P) are clean. Mind you, I HAVE turned down the detail for a more cinematic "sharpness" (or lack thereof). The EX series are notoriously sharp. Perhaps that plays in?

Here's my point; All of us here have either the HM100 or the HM700 or are interested in the camera. This is a wake-up call that video from the camera (HM700 in my case) doesn't compress well to DV using Compressor and I would like to investigate that. We're fine though, because MPEG Streamclip saves the day, but I would like to know why Compressor has a hard time (compressing to DV, anyway) with the video from the 100 or 700.

The only settings I've changed on my camera is to use Cinema Vivid, Compress the Black one step, and enhance the color by one step. While the detail in the picture shouldn't make a difference, I've not changed that.

Now, when is SOMEBODY going to download my 3-second clip, use Compressor with the DV NTSC setting, and report back?

Did you miss that I did that?

Don,

If your looking for the final output to be SD, then shoot 1920x1080 35mb (interlaced) and let the cam convert to SD DV thru the firewire out. Just be sure to set the manual switch to DV and set the 4:3 in the menus. Slower than drag and drop but no funny stuff and additional time using other programs.

RonE

I did and I reported back.

EDIT: Sorry, didn't use Compressor. I used FCP the same way I use MY clips and the moiré in your clip in my timeline was AWFUL.

Robert: I should have been more clear: I downloaded the clip and used the methodology that I use for my HD200U 720P60 footage (which works VERY well for me) and the artifacting and moiré was AWFUL. Sorry if I wasn't clear. MY experience with MY 720P footage is VERY different.

Several tests
 

I did run some tests. I downloaded raw samples posted some time ago by Tim. I used both Compressor and Quicktime Conversion Export App. with exact same results. I used straight export and 2 stage export. In all samples I had the same ugly results.
I don't know if this is the cause, but in the settings there is only DV/DVCPRO NTSC, not DV NTSC. It might be something Apple has to fix with a patch.

DV & DVCPRO (25) are the exact same compression codec (so is DVCAM)
"DV NTSC" is a setting in compressor (under "Standard definition"). You can make (and save) your own modifications to this for progressive/ 24or30P/16:9 anamorphic etc.
When resizing from HD, you would definitely want resizing set to best. There are quite a few tweaks to look at, and I'm not clear what has been tried so far. Will try to play with the 3 sec clip when I get a chance. Moire is a tricky phenomena though, resulting from a mathematical interplay of horizontal lines. Reducing resolution can improve footage in some cases - counter to intuition.
Donald - sorry about the DVD conversion confusion. That was me in an early post not reading carefully. Probably propagated more confusion.
Mpegstreamclip has been really useful for me in the past, but it's a bear of a workflow. I had big problems with it's conversion dropping frames and sync at one stage, and then had fantastic fast results within FCP using the "Media Manager" tool. That's what I'd be trying first - ideal for converting an entire edited project or raw footage in the timeline.

I wanted to chime in here about my past experience... I haven't had a chance to look at the current footage and do a test, but...

The one time I had to convert HD 1080p30 to DV for a client, using QuickTime, the results were horrible, way worse than anything I ever shot in native DV. This was using a Canon HF-100 camcorder (AVCHD format on SDHC cards).

What _appeared_ to be happening is that the 1080p progressive footage was being converted to DV 480i by subsampling the same lines from the 1080p frame for _both_ 480i fields. This resulted in an effective 240 lines of resolution, rather than 480, and caused jagged lines and "moire" effects to appear all over the place.

My solution at the time was simple: Provide the client with alternative formats -- Thankfully, the client was fine with this and had only been asking for DV as a matter of habit.

By the way, the same footage converted to Standard Def as a DVD using iDVD came out just fine. There's just something wrong (in my opinion based on anecdotal experience) in the default assumptions QuickTime makes when converting from high definition to DV.

It really does look like an error in the conversion where 1 field of an interlaced frame is being repeated. As I've never had this problem with 720p footage it's possibly a software bug in the conversion architecture that FCS uses. If MPEGStreamclip does it right then I suggest making QuickTime Movies (uncheck "Make Self-Contained") of your finished projects and make the down-conversion that way until an update fixes the problem.

Now, when is SOMEBODY going to download my 3-second clip, use Compressor with the DV NTSC setting, and report back?[/QUOTE]

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Donald,

I downloaded your clip. I used WinFF (front end for FFMPEG) to convert it to DV and got a clean conversion using the presets. WinFF is free, and can be found at WinFF - Free Video Converter. It's available for Linux and Windows.

David Walton
JVC