Can someone explain Apple's logic
 

I've been waiting for the update to the new MacBook Pro, which was announced this week as I've been looking to spec out a system after using PC's for the last 30 years:

Apple revamps MacBook Pro line, adds Thunderbolt port | Laptops | MacUser | Macworld

Most of it looks pretty exciting, but then I see they decided at the last minute to switch from NVidia graphics to AMD graphics, meaning no CUDA support for CS5 products. I know there's a lot of bad blood between Apple and Adobe, but doesn't this kind of kick all you Mac guys in the head that need to use AE, PS, and other CS5 tools even if you choose FCP over PPro?

I'm very disappointed. I was looking at finally giving Mac a whirl, but I want to be able to use CUDA acceleration on CS5. This looks like a really bad business decision for professional users. Can someone explain how this decision is good for Apple users?

Re: Can someone explain Apple's logic
 

You might want to wait and see how the graphics cards work with the new Final Cut Studio.
Just saying, Apple usually looks at how to make the computer works with their OWN software
suite before worrying about Adobe's.
For example, if you are running Motion, the best graphics card is different than if you are running
CS5. Not saying this is the best way, but different programs work better with different cards...

Re: Can someone explain Apple's logic
 

Seems compromising CS5 is going to put Apple at a tactical disadvantage given it runs on PC and Mac and many on both sides of the fence use AE, PS, and other tools as their first choice. Seems like a bad game of chess forcing allegiance to Apple vs Apple giving users what that want.

I'm not trying to be incendiary, I'm just bewildered. I just fought a battle to get myself and a coworker onto the first Apple trial at our company and now given our work is predominately CS5 I'll most like back out, buy a HP and plow ahead with CS5.

Re: Can someone explain Apple's logic
 

But forcing allegiance to Apple is what Apple does! Blu Ray (or more accurately very little Blu Ray) support, Apple vs Flash and so on. Not that I'm going anywhere, I can use both FCP and CS5
on a Mac and you can't do that on a PC. That being said, I understand why others would take
a different view and move over to a PC.

Re: Can someone explain Apple's logic
 

The last time I checked no Nvidia mobile gpu's supported the CS5 CUDA features anyway. I believe it is only a handfull of desktop and work station class cards that are fully supported to work. Even on the PC side most laptop users don't get to use the full CUDA features for CS5.

This is kind of the problem with Adobe only supporting gpu acceleration from one gpu manufacturer.

AMD cards from my understanding have much better OSX drivers then Nvidia and overall seem to work better so this can be taken as a good move. Now if only they would have done the same for the 13"

Re: Can someone explain Apple's logic
 

Desktops may have a nVidia BTO option, I'd guess. They've never had BTO GPU option in Laptops and there move away from nVidia apparently was assumed for quite some time, not last minute. I think there were rumors about talks about a year ago. Apparently nVidia reflected this in their last financial guidance reports. I've also heard Apple wasn't interested in using nVidia's CUDA technology. Apple Motion runs much faster on a Radeon 5770 for example and may take advantage of the 5870 better with the next FCS (my speculation). In short I think it had to do with the direction they were taking FCS in.

Re: Can someone explain Apple's logic
 

I'm fairly new to Apple and am planning on picking up a new 17" MBP.

What surprised me the most about the new models was the lack of a Blu Ray burner.

After doing some research I've discovered that it sounds like it may never happen.

As a video editor (which I imagine is one of the main professions that put the pro in MacBook Pro) with more and more people asking me for their product on Blu Ray, what good is a Mac to me? I still need my PC to take care of that business.

And given that I can't use CUDA for CS5 on the Mac, I'll continue to use Premiere on the PC, on which I can then burn to Blu Ray. For me, Apple is behind the 8-ball.

I especially find interesting the fact that Intel are saying that the new Thunderbolt technology allows you to "transfer an entire Blu Ray film in 30 seconds".

But to where? Certainly not to the Macs that are the only machines that have the Thunderbolt ports yet.

Re: Can someone explain Apple's logic
 

Just buy an external Blu-Ray burner. FCP and Compressor even had a "Share" which will burn to Blu-ray. I primarily use Blu-ray for backing up files. Most of my delivery these days is file based but I'm sure that depends on your client base. For TV Spot delivery I use MPEG2 Program or Transport streams and some service will now accept ProRes as well. For corporate video I'm either delivery HD files or DVD. DVD for hand outs. Files from laptops to projectors.

Blu-ray playback, due to it's copy protection, would be a major OS and hardware development issue driving up the costs of Macs even more. Just by external. Actually for desktop MacPro you can easily buy and install a burner.

Re: Can someone explain Apple's logic
 

I'm skittish about posting to offsite retailers not DVInfo sponsors but I can't think of any other way to show that Macs really do support Blu-ray burning (just not playing)

Internal and External Quad Interface Blu-ray Optical Drives. Fast, Spacious, Flexible & Up to 50GB of Storage

MCE Internal 12X Blu-ray Recordable Drive for Mac Pro and Power Mac

FastMac | Product - Blu-ray Drive Upgrade for your Mac

DVInfo sponsor sells them too but it's out of stock and buried in there they mention it includes Toast for Mac. I think the above pages are more demonstrative of targeted Mac Blu-ray marketing.
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/681820-REG/LaCie_301906U_d2_12x_Blu_ray_Disc.html

Re: Can someone explain Apple's logic
 

Hey Roger

I think what most Apple users want (even if they don't know it yet) is for Apple (and everyone else, including Adobe) to fully support and leverage the existing capabilities of their existing hardware regardless of who manufactures the chipset ... rather than using CUDA, if Adobe used OpenCL then it would allow any suitable graphics card to be used, not just NVidia. That said ...

The Thunderbolt interconnect, as found in these new MBP's, appears to be able to support any PCIe x4 native device ie if its something you could connect to your computer via a PCIe 4x port then with a suitable adaptor you could plug it via a Thunderbolt connection ... and you can stick a CUDA capable graphics card in a PCIe x4 slot no? This seems to opens up the possibility of using such a laptop together with a desktop class graphics card for CUDA based acceleration ... not as fast as using one in a desktop I dare say, but an intriguing prospect nonetheless.

Loving these new laptops.

Just a thought.
Andy

Re: Can someone explain Apple's logic
 

Thanks Andy. Didn't really consider the Thunderbold connector being used for an external graphics card. Hmmm, a little clunky, but maybe it would work.

Re: Can someone explain Apple's logic
 

If that were possible, it would be a HUGE deal!

Re: Can someone explain Apple's logic
 

What about the MB and CPU? Is this the SandyBridge platform they are now using?

If so, I thought Intel just did a massive recall on those boards...and from reading the various vendors postings on their sites, they state that an estimated time to get the new revision boards, and complete systems out to the end users, is around mid-March.

So if these new MBP's are utilizing the SandyBridge architecture, doesn't that mean these will have to be recalled as well?

Re: Can someone explain Apple's logic
 

It was only desktop boards and the only issue was with their Sata ports.

Photoshop and AE leverage OpenGL so AMD/ATI cards still work. For Premiere Pro acceleration, another option is the Matrox Mini with Maxx - just don't expect the Matrox to provide 'pro color' from a regular LCD.

The main problem with Apple using only AMD now is most high-end software which uses GPU acceleration needs nvidia such as Resolve, Smoke, Avid...

Re: Can someone explain Apple's logic
 

Are you sure about that??

custom gaming laptops - Welcome to Sager Notebooks

Re: Can someone explain Apple's logic
 

Sager uses desktop boards in many of their laptops which is why you can get laptops with 6 core chips.

Re: Can someone explain Apple's logic
 

Yes, I know they do; but there is only one Sager model, the NP7280, that is a 6-core shipping product and it's not SandyBridge....it's a X58 chipset.

It's clearly stated, in the link below, that the affected chipsets are the Quad Core Desktops and Laptops...which these MBP's are using now....aren't they?

Intel's Sandy Bridge chipset flaw: The fallout | Nanotech - The Circuits Blog - CNET News

The timeline:

Jan. 31, 2011 - Intel recalls the Sandy Bridge chipset
Feb. 24, 2011 - Apple release's the new MBP with Sandy Bridge

OK, so if Sager is providing a recall for their laptops, wouldn't Apple?

I'm just trying to figure out why these new MBP's wouldn't be affected. Maybe the MBP's are using a different chipset?

Re: Can someone explain Apple's logic
 

That article is incorrect because there were no SB laptops at the time of the article; so, "if you are a consumer who's run out and grabbed a high-end laptop or desktop gaming rig in the last few weeks..." is incorrect. The only other thing they could have meant for 'high-end laptop' is something like Sager which use desktop boards.

Later in the article, it says," seeing a failure to access ports 2 through 5". Laptop models have at most, 2 Sata ports. I don't know why they continue to discuss this issue affecting laptops because Apple is the first SB laptop to be released, a month after this article was written.

For once, Apple is releasing the first generation of an Intel product, the mobile SB board/CPU.

As to why Sager still shows the warning, they are probably last in line to receive new boards from Intel due to their small sales. Apple is one of Intel's biggest, so, they can get first dibs.

Read this, #1: http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2379241,00.asp

Re: Can someone explain Apple's logic
 

Right...so if Apple got "first dibs" and Sager got second dibs...and Sager is issuing instructions on how those customers should return those 1st gen systems....wouldn't it make logical sense that Apple has the 1st gen chipsets as well?

In other words, how can the new MBP's have the same SB chipset as the other vendors and not be affected....especially since you state that Apple gets "first dibs"?

Also, Intel states that it only affects the 3Gbps SATA ports...not the 6Gbps SATA ports. So if these new MBP's have and use the latter....it's fine. But if they do utilize the slower port...which nobody seems to really know for sure...then there could be a potential problem that Intel as well as Sager and other vendors have publicly stated.

Hey....if one is going to shell out $2500 plus for a laptop, I'd wanna make absolutely sure that I have the "fixed" version....and not have to send it back to get fixed later down the road.

Re: Can someone explain Apple's logic
 

Apple chooses it's hardware for their own software to assure it runs as it should, Think they don't care about professional users that rely on cuda support for software which are not specifically designed for a Mac. Especially if you see how poor realtime performance fcp gives now with 1080p h264 footage I wouldn't be surprised that the new fcp version will use the Amd cards for acceleration.

If you want to buy a Mac you have to follow their vision and choose the software that goes with that for best results.

Re: Can someone explain Apple's logic
 

Did you read the article I linked to? It clearly states that only desktop boards were affected.

Re: Can someone explain Apple's logic
 

Which is what I have done for 12 years, since investing in FCP 1.0.2

Not a fanboy but it works for me - fewer variables in individual builds of systems is congruent with (not EQUAL TO...) a more seamless integration.

Sounds like a SOLID business decision to me...

Re: Can someone explain Apple's logic
 

Hi Guys,
You can use Premiere Pro CS5 on a Mac and edit, regardless of the video card you have in your system. You see, the Mercury Engine works even without a CUDA based card. If you happen to have one, then certain items are accelerated. If you don't have such a card, you can still edit RED and DSLR footage natively—even on a MacBook Pro.

More info here: Adobe Forums: Mercury, CUDA, and what it all means
http://blogs.adobe.com/premiereprotr...miere-pro.html

Re: Can someone explain Apple's logic
 

Actually my own quote is not always right :) look at below comparison, one would expect that fcp which can be designed for only a very few hardwareoptions should perform very good but it seems it's quite bad with realtime performance. Another NLE, not designed for Mac outperforms FCP by quite a lot. (it's in German but short explained fcp on a quad core mac is not able to play 3 streams of h264 1080p files PIP in realtime while edius can on the same mac with bootcamp, even if edius has to render files to give you a preview the difference is very big, a few seconds for edius and 3 minutes for fcp for a 10 second clip)

But I expect that to change for the new fcp version, they have to if they want to stay competitive.
YouTube - FinalCut Pro vs. EDIUS 6 - performance comparison

Re: Can someone explain Apple's logic
 

Did you read this quote off the Intel website?

Q: How do I determine if my system is affected?

A: Desktop systems using the Intel® H67 and P67 Express Chipsets and mobile systems using the Intel® HM67 and HM65 may be affected by this issue. Intel recommends that end users contact their place of purchase or system manufacturer for more information.


Here's the link .... Solution for the Intel Series 6 Chipset Design Error

Re: Can someone explain Apple's logic
 

Kevin....thanks for re-iterating that for us all. Sometimes that is overlooked.

Do you think Adobe will support OpenCL in the future? Or more interestingly, is it even possible to support both CUDA and OpenCL simultaneously?

Also, considering the MBP can only hold 8gb of RAM, would CS5 PPro run smoothly just for basic cuts only editing?

Re: Can someone explain Apple's logic
 

Why did you waste all this time and not just go there to begin with?

Re: Can someone explain Apple's logic
 

Actually, I wasn't the one wasting time as I knew this all along. It was you that was so adamant in stating that it was only the desktop boards that were affected.

I'm just trying to find out from anybody here ... and Apple .... to see if the new MBP's are affected by this recall. So far, nobody seems to know for sure....and I have not seen an email reply back from Apple yet.

No harm, no foul my friend!! Just seeking the facts.

Re: Can someone explain Apple's logic
 

I am the owner of a brand new MBP and am asking the same questions.

Intel provides instructions for how to check if you're affected on Windows but doesn't provide instructions for OSX so I'm thinking maybe we're in the clear. Surely if they the Macs were affected a similar instruction would be provided? Maybe?