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-   -   Mac vs. PC (https://www.dvinfo.net/forum/final-cut-suite/5863-mac-vs-pc.html)

Alec Joseph January 6th, 2003 06:37 PM

Mac vs. PC
 
Is Mac really that much better than a pc that I have to go and spend a ton more for it? Has any one worked with a good pc and a good mac? Is it any better? How? Thank you whoever you are....

Chris Hurd January 6th, 2003 06:54 PM

For starters, see http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthrea...&threadid=5268

Alex Taylor January 6th, 2003 06:56 PM

They both have their strengths and weaknesses.. Mac OS tends to be much more stable than Windows, and more user-friendly if that's an issue. Also, Final Cut Pro is available only for Mac, that's the reason why a lot of people choose it over PC.

PCs are generally more versatile as they have more software available to them, and like you said they're cheaper than Macs. If you're doing strictly video/digital art work I would go with a Mac, if it's going to be a general use computer then PC would probably be the best bet.

Chris Hurd January 6th, 2003 07:05 PM

See also http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthrea...&threadid=5394

There are a lot of Mac users here on DV info Net. I'm at the MacWorld show right now in San Francisco in fact. However I prefer to edit video on a PC, because real-time performance is much easier to attain at an affordable price.

For instance, a Canopus DVStorm 2 offers superb real-time editing that Final Cut Pro can't touch, only because FCP is software only and therefore titles, filters etc. must be rendered out. Canopus is hardware and software combined, and rock-solid stable. FCP is a much more elegant interface, however, and very feature-rich. It's the choice of a huge number of pro editors.

In my opinion the Mac vs. PC question primarily revolves around whether or not you really need real-time output to DV and titles, transitions, etc. without waiting to render (which a PC will accomplish for less money). If you prefer a professional first-rate editing platform and don't mind renders, then FCP on a Mac is the way to go.

If you come from a Mac background, stick with a Mac. If you come from a PC background, stick with that. It's all about being comfortable with the operating system interface and each platform's various quirks, etc. Both Macs and PC's are prone to crash occasionally -- no one platform is bullet proof.

In the long run, *always* try before you buy. Hope this helps,

Jeff Donald January 6th, 2003 07:35 PM

I edit on both Mac's and PC's. My preference and what I own are Mac's. The type of editing that I do on my own projects and the work I'm hired to do for clients do not generally require a great deal of rendering. Newer Mac's do Real Time previews for many effects (they need to be rendered before going to tape) such as cross fades, many filters, color correction etc. Final Cut Pro 4 is due within the next few months (probably less) and is rumored to offer many more Real Time Preview effects etc.

If you are considering a switch, now is a good time. As Chris pointed out MacWorld is underway and new machines will be announced shortly. Thus, current models will be discounted to make way for the new. Not be alarmed, this is a semi annual event for Macs. Sort of out with the old, in with the new.

Getting around to why I prefer Macs, the ease, and elegance of the interface is certainly one reason. Only FCP and Avid have the ability to conform an edit back to film. FCP is scaleable meaning with additional hardware you can edit analog in various forms (Beta SP etc.) you can edit compressed and uncompressed for higher quality, and even HD. All with the same software, just add hardware as your projects grow.

What type of projects do you edit? That can be a good indication of what might work better for you.

Rhett Allen January 6th, 2003 08:17 PM

I personally own both systems but I really only use the Mac anymore. I bought the PC to test compatibility and perform certain tasks, I also needed to run Maya which wasn't on the Mac at the time. I have used Media 100 on both platforms and the Mac was by far more stable. I also use Cleaner on both platforms. My Dual Processor Mac is at least twice as fast as my dual processor PC of double the MHz rating (2xG4 500Mhz vs. 2xP3 1000Mhz).
I just have problems with Windows that no-one can solve (all of my friend in the PC support field have given up), for example I was sent a contract proposal in Microsoft Word format, my PC crashes, chokes and dies whenever I use Word to open these files (or really any). My Mac on the other hand opens them just fine in Word for Mac, and these files were created on a PC.
The whole "there is more software for the PC" argument just doesn't fly with me. Most of the crap I have seen that isn't available for the Mac, isn't worth having anyway. Not that there aren't some really great programs for the PC that aren't on the Mac, but there are replacements that do just as well. Example: Cakewalk Sonar, PC only audio, Logic Platinum, better, and now Mac only, Pro tools, both.
I don't know how to decide really, you will probably make a financial decision when it comes down to it and then it will depend on the software and hardware you want to use and their costs.
I own both, but prefer Mac.

good luck

Steve Leone January 7th, 2003 06:59 PM

Mac V PC
 
There is plenty of indication that most of the folks on here use Macs(re: LOVE Macs)....most psychiatrists will tell you that "love" is a pretty irrational state of mind...reading the thread about how Macs are just so much more powerful than PCs may be a fine example....read these sobering links:

Apple Best and Worst of Times

http://www.digitalvideoediting.com/2002/10_oct/editorials/cw_editorial60.htm

Mac vs. PC III Mac Slaughtered Again

http://www.digitalvideoediting.com/2002/11_nov/reviews/cw_macvspciii.htm

To paraphrase Errol Morris, when you ply thru all the hype and eyewitness accounts, there is still, at the end of the day, such a thing as "a matter of fact"

Rick Spilman January 7th, 2003 07:29 PM

Funny, every time I use a Mac I get annoyed by how non-intutive and generally annoying it all is. It is really all what you are use to.

PCs are cheaper and work well. Some would say better. I'll settle for well. If you are locked into FCP, Mac is your only chioce but if you want Avid DV Xpress, Premiere, Vegas and so on, the PC gives you more choices. Like Chris I have a Canpos RT card which allows me to do color correction and filters that would take forever if rendered.

Rick

Doug Quance January 7th, 2003 08:12 PM

Gee, I thought I was the only PC user that doesn't "get" the so-called 'intuitiveness' of the Mac.

I remember going to Kinko's a few years back... I needed to do something (I can't remember what), and all they had there were Macs. Since I've been playing with computers since 1980, I figured "No Problem".

Yeah, right.

I couldn't do anything with those machines. There was nothing intuitive about it for me. The GUI might have well been in Chinese.

I have never denied that Macs, in the past, have been the standard for graphics and video. I think those days are over. PC's are quickly overtaking Macs in sheer brute strength versus the dollar spent. The PC OS is now much more stable than in the past, so the recent flood of Apple TV ads pretty much tell a big lie.

Thanks, Steve, for the link to the performance comparisons. I know my system is much faster than a G4, and now the proof is in the pudding. Read 'em and weep.

Doug Quance January 7th, 2003 08:15 PM

P.S. To all you Mac users out there, no offense. I've just dealt with my share of "Apple Snobs" that think that PC's suck, and you must be a moron if you own one. ;)

Curtis T. Stoeber January 7th, 2003 08:30 PM

It's funny to read that Mac users can be regarded as "snobs" but PC users can never be seen as such. I have run into my fair share of PC users that think it would be utterly embarrasing to own a Mac and would never consider it. Another intersting thing noted above is that lots of people LOVE Macs and that love is an irrational state of mind. Nobody in the PC camp LOVES PCs? Just the title of "Mac's Slaughtered Again" shows extreme bias. Now PCs may or may not be faster (I don't care) but if the article was not biased, it would have been titled differently. That title shows LOVE for the PC. I don't want to read a biased article, which it must be judging from the title. Waste of time.

I think when one camp gets harsh on the other, it is because they are jealous for one reason or another, and that they'd like to have both but don't want to/can't pay for both. I'm sure many PC and Mac users will say "I've NEVER been jealous of what goes on on the other platform!" Yeah right. Both have advantages that can only be realized if you own both. Stop whining. If your computer is really better, then there is no need to prove it. That goes for both sides.

I own both Mac and PC. I use the Mac more. But I like my PC as well.

Doug Quance January 7th, 2003 11:36 PM

Curtis,

If your job was to sell magazines (or in this case, banner ads)... and the two top competing platforms went head to head for some serious number-crunching... and either side was twice as fast... wouldn't YOU write the headline that it "was a slaughter"?

I know I would.

If the Mac kicked the PC's ass, I think they headline would be very similar... just reversed. In the highly competitive marketplace of personal computers, this is no small news. This was a slam dunk.

Just think, what if Apple were to market a high-end computer that was twice as fast as a PC... and less money? Wouldn't that be even BIGGER news?

Don't take the revelation badly.

And those PC snobs who wouldn't own a Mac? Just consider them ignorant.

I had to seriously consider learning how to use one when I started my research to buy an NLE, as I thought I would be purchasing a Mac. I was pleased to learn that cross-training wasn't necessary.

Henrik Bengtsson January 8th, 2003 01:39 AM

Well in the end, we are currently yapping about what brand of brush to use when painting. Will the end viewer see the difference in the painting? nope. Its all tools and nothing else.

As for PC vs Mac snobs, thats the ultimate form of ignorance in my book. They need to feel that they belong somewhere so bad that anything other than what they use must be wrong per definition. The computerbrand is just the expression, not the reason of their behaviour. If it were not the computer, it'd be the car brand, coffie brand, clothing, etc.

Me i edit & do audio and post on Mac simply because the workflow in FCP & AFX works well for me. 3D i still prefere to do on PC's since yes, they are cheaper and you get more cpu power for your $. The Mac route is a tad more expensive in the beginning (HW being more expensive) but the lifespan is longer. I still edit and work on my 3 year old g4 and have no problems with that. I had to upgrade my 3 year old PC quite recently because it just became too slow to handle.

In the end, it's just a tool. It's the person wielding the brush who paints.. a brush without a painter will just be lying on the shelf.

/Henrik

Ken Tanaka January 8th, 2003 02:13 AM

Henrik: "Well in the end, we are currently yapping about what brand of brush to use when painting. Will the end viewer see the difference in the painting? nope. Its all tools and nothing else."

Amen.

Every so often someone comes along here, and elsewhere, and asks just such a question and ignites just such a storm.

I've used PC's since they became...well...PC's. I still have two very capable Dells. During the past couple of years I've used Macs for most tasks and have become very fond of the Apple environment, much fonder than I ever was of the Windows environment. Nevertheless, I still use Windows.

Remember two things. First, remember what Henrik said: these are just tools. They're only a means to an end. Select the platform that feels best to you financially and functionally. Then devote yourself to learning every nuance of the tools it offers.

Second, remember that this is not a matter of religion or political affiliation. You can use both if you need to do so! And, in fact, it's never been easier to do so.

Steve Leone January 8th, 2003 10:33 AM

Mac V PC
 
OK, I have a vested interest here.....Nothing to do with religion, except for those clients who have so bought into the Apple hype that they wont consider using my editing service because I edit on a Win2k machine..."oh, you dont edit FCP on a mac?? how does that look?? it cant look as good, right?? doesnt it crash all the time?? I need this done quickly, I really cant afford to wait"...those are the knee-jerk comments I have heard just in the last month, and yes, I lost work, despite the fact that I have a nice looking reel, my machine NEVER crashes(really), and I could do MORE than the Macs I was competing with in terms of compositing and audio mastering. You cant argue with religion, and there is nothing more hard-headed than " a reformed Baptist"....the current TV campaign is the worst sort of propaganda...Leni Reifenstahl would be proud, but its nothing they dont teach in Film 101.
On the practical side, I have worked with Macs, and as far as interface goes, I can sit in front of one and make it work just fine....a gui is a gui, more or less, and if you work on a computer, you have to navigate files and folders...the metaphores may be a bit different, but the task is essentially the same, despite what Apple may say.
I custom designed and built my system myself..as a result it is very powerful, stable, and gives me all the tools I need to get my work done quickly and with very little hassle....I am not "switching" just because some marketing guy In New York thinks I should. Someone would need to make a REAL argument to convince me.....

Jeff Donald January 8th, 2003 10:55 AM

Don't switch because of some marketing guy, switch because it costs you money, lost clients or both. The majority of my clients prefer that I edit with FCP and I use it for my personal work as well. I have some clients that prefer I use a PC and I do. I don't try to get them to switch to Mac. To each his own. I also realize that I can't edit for every client in Tampa Bay. I go with the platform that gets me the most work. Steve Job's stated yesterday that FCP is the leading NLE based on units sold (add the boot legged copies and watch-out). I saw the trend several years ago with FCP stealing from AVID. I saw my base eroding away and I switched to keep my clients. If something else comes along (on PC or Mac or whatever) I'll switch again. But for now I'll ride the crest of the wave.

Jeff

Steve Leone January 8th, 2003 11:16 AM

RE Jobs
 
yeah, It sucks to loose clients because of misguided perceptions...some say perception IS reality.....I tend think that reality is reality.....as for Jobs,, I dont put TOO much stock in what he says...he is first and foremost a showman, and one thing I know about TV is that its NOT real.
It all comes down to the work......Owning an AVID, or a FCP system does NOT make you an editor......the real question is whether you can EDIT, not whether you own a MAC.....unfortunately, there is an aweful lot of "uniform non-conformity" in the creative community....the fact is that those who are different(re. Win2 editors) are viewed as different, and NOT in a good way, by others in the "creative community".....maybe when Apple starts using Intel CPU's, as it is now rumored they will, and drops its prices by 60-70% I will consider seriously the possibilty of using a Mac in my room. Capital investment and cost-benefit....THATS reality...

Guest January 8th, 2003 01:12 PM

Mac vs. PC
 
I learned to fly in a Cessna, so I tend to think they're much better than Pipers. I guess you could call me a Cessna snob.

Although, now that I think about it... Piper does have better visibility when you're looking up (low ings). But then, Cessna has better visibility when you're looking down (high wings).

And both crash if not operated properly, despite Piper snobs' claims.

I've flown both.

Damn. Now I'm really confused. I don't know which I l ike best.

Rhett Allen January 8th, 2003 01:52 PM

My experience with PC speed and reliability
 
My comments on the speed of the computers was based on my own personal experience, not some lame Quake benchmark I saw on the internet. I have both a Playstation 1 and 2 to play games with, I don't need them on my computer.
As for the speed, I have personally used Cleaner 5 on a $20,000 DualP3-1Ghz Compaq computer, it wasn't even half has fast as Cleaner 5 on a $3600 Dual500-G4 (these prices were new).
For reliability, I used the same Compaq with the Media100 iFinish. Not only would this machine crash every 4 hours and corrupt all of the data, but the format it captured to can't even be used outside of iFinish (pretty lame). I will admit it was pretty speedy but crashing and starting over every day...not worth it. Not only could our own computer tech support (15,000 plus employee company) not figure out the stability issue, but the company that sold it too us (I won't mention their name but they are here in Dallas and are very big) couldn't figure out the problem. Our solution was to buy 3 Dual 800 FCP machines for the same price as that one PC.
Which brings us to price. If you try to go out and configure 2 equally spec'd editing workstations, the price is about the same. Just like you can buy a less expensive iMac, you can buy a super cheap-o PC, but you get a super cheap-o machine.
I have 3 PC's and 5 Mac's (I keep my old machines for testing) and while I will admit there are certainly app's that run on the PC faster (Maya and Internet Explorer that I use) the experience is nicer to me on the Mac. I actually have both of them side by side on my desk. I use them both every day. I have been entertaining the idea of building another Dual X86 machine (I haven't decided on Pentium or Athlon, I have both already) and trying out some of the Canopus apps. But I just can't force myself to move to WinXP and I hate 2KPro. I wish someone would make some really killer editing apps for Linux (yes Piranha would be great, maybe I should specify "under $250K"). In the mean time, I am so happy with FCP it doesn't matter.

It is just a tool. I do my video on the Mac, my audio on the PC and my gaming on the Playstation2.

Imran Zaidi January 8th, 2003 01:53 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Alex Taylor : They both have their strengths and weaknesses.. Mac OS tends to be much more stable than Windows. -->>>

This statement is only accurate when you're talking about Home versions of windows (95, 98, ME). Users of the pro versions (NT, 2000, XP PRO) will tell you that they just don't crash.

Me? 3 years with only 1 crash.

Those Apple Switch ads are like propaganda. They ask you to compare the Apple OS to the home editions of Windows, which are crash prone.

When dealing with Windows, stick with Windows Pro for Pro work, and you will find the kind of stability you will never ever ever find with a Mac.

Apple's latest OS X Jaguar promises to be much more stable, and probably is because it's based on Unix, which arguably is the most stable platform out there.

Ultimately, as said earlier in this thread, pick what works for you, for the software that you like. These are just tools. A brush doesn't make the artist, etc. etc.


Robert Knecht Schmidt January 8th, 2003 01:59 PM

A $20,000 dual P3? The case was platinum-plated, right?

The thing about playing games on Playstation, Xbox, and all of the other console boxes is you have to sit in front of a monitor that only has about 200 lines of resolution and only refreshes 60 times a second. Headache city.

Steve Leone January 8th, 2003 02:13 PM

Mac V PC
 
a Dual P3??? abit stopped making the VP6 over a year ago...thats old technology already....look at the specs on the new 3.4 P4 with Hyper threading...AMD is topping 3 GHZ and introducing 64 bit CPUS....Motorola just cant compete, and with only about 4 % of the installed user base, they have no incentive to compete...thats why Apple is looking at IBM CPU's...Apples fortunes are tied to Motorola, and even Jobs knows that thats a bad business strategy.

http://www.digitalvideoediting.com/2002/10_oct/editorials/cw_editorial60.htm

Steve Leone January 8th, 2003 02:22 PM

Mac V Pc
 
BTW.....$20,ooo for a PC??? you cant be serious...if you are, I hope your business has generous investors with very deep pockets and little concern for profits.
Oh, and in a year of running Win2k....NOT ONE CRASH.....dont compare apples and oranges....how many editors are running win 95?? how many are running system 7???
Professional apps require a professional OS....
I would agree with the notion that Unix or Linux solutions are a
nice idea.........the sweet thing about X86 systems is being able to run multiple OS's...I am running 3, and I could run more If I cared to.

Jeff Donald January 8th, 2003 03:02 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Imran Zaidi : Those Apple Switch ads are like propaganda. They ask you to compare the Apple OS to the home editions of Windows, which are crash prone. -->>>

Watch the ads again. http://www.apple.com/switch/ads/They make no reference to home or pro editions of windows. The people represented in the ads were probably using home editions. Why? Because thats what most PC users buy. They don't buy pro editions for their daughters to type high school reports on. The ads are aimed at the home market. You don't see professional editors on the ads. It's moms and dads and kids and small business owners etc. People who would use the home versions and as you point out, experience crashes.

Jeff

Imran Zaidi January 8th, 2003 03:57 PM

All except for XP Home Edition which is what home users in today's market are actually getting, which is stable due to a different backbone. Apples to oranges (no pun intended). So yup, propaganda; information with a slant. It is, after all, marketing. Marketing is full of propaganda artists and spin doctors, no big secret.

Vic Owen January 8th, 2003 08:22 PM

Oh, man, this is fun. Every now and then, some unsuspecting soul starts one of these strings! They make about as much sense now as the first ones...

Note for Charles -- over the years, I' ve never crashed a Cessna -- I'll bet, however, if was flying Piper, I would have had several unexpected ones, with the subsequent "loss of productivity"! (Gotta admit, though, that the sun streaming in from above would be nice.)

Cheers

Jeff Donald January 8th, 2003 11:23 PM

I teach Photography and Digital Photography at a local fine arts school. My digital photography class started this evening. I have 25 students and out of the 25, 21 are using PCs. The other 4 use Macs. These numbers are fairly typical of my classes. Almost all of my students are first time digital users. Among my students tonight were a college dean, a professor at a nearby college, an artist, a few college and high school students, retirees and moms and dads. Many of them are usually associated as the types that would own Macs. Guess what? They own PCs. Out of the 21, 19 had problems installing the drivers, getting their cameras to download etc. Some of them still can't do it and are hoping I can fix it for them. And yes, most of them are using Windows 98, Windows 95 (good luck) and ME. No surprise they are having problems.

To demonstrate to them how simple it can be I used one of the schools iBooks. I connected a Canon Elph (no driver loading), iPhoto instantly opened, recognized the camera and downloaded all my pictures into an album. The majority of them were shocked and stunned. They had no idea it could be so simple and easy.

The switching ads are aimed at these people. People who have had less than ideal computing experiences. Face it PCs aren't for everybody, and neither are Macs. Differences should be welcomed in people and computer operating systems. Differences should be treated with respect, and ignorance with tolerance, patience and understanding.

Mac users are not Vipers or Mac Heads. They are moms and dads, sisters and brother and neighbors and friends. Treat them with respect and they'll treat you the same way. This thread was probably started by some Troll looking for a flame war and he got it. Enough said.

Jeff

Rhett Allen January 9th, 2003 12:34 AM

Yes...$20,000
 
When was the last time you bought a Professional Editing workstation from a VAR? Even the newest B&H Catalog lists a Dual P3 Avid Xpress machine for $4999.95. The fastest machine they offer in the X86 platform is a Dual 2.4 P4 Xeon and in their Targa setup (and not even a great one) it costs $9,999.95. Now figure building a top of the line Dual P3 Xeon with a Media 100 V80 last year when it was several hundred dollars for 256MB of PC100 RAM (remember that) and a 18Gig SCSI drive was almost a grand. Well you do the math, the $20K was a bargain to us, being a Compaq technology partner (buying several thousand computers from them a year) we even got a discount. And yes even running 2000 Professional I get crashes and errors every day (more errors than crashes now because I barely use the machine for real work anymore).
Believe me, I cussed my Mac for quite a while when I was in OS9 but since I've been in OSX it has been a truly wonderful experience. And for the record I am not a sister, mother, grandmother, father or any of your other stereotypical "Mac-user" profiles. I am an industrial designer turned video/multimedia producer with a 20+ year background in photography. I prefer to design in pencil on paper and I view the computer as a means of outputting a concpet that I have thouroughly worked out on paper before I ever sit at the keyboard. When I get there all I want is for the computer to do what I ask without questioning the method I choose, and do it without crashing. If I wanted to sit around all day and edit my registry, I would have become a geek. I am an artist and have better things to do with my sanity (or what's left of it). But that's me.

Ken Tanaka January 9th, 2003 12:47 AM

...And on that note I think it's time to close this discussion and devote our energies to more germane and informative topics.

Whether someone uses PC's or Mac's is immaterial here. Everyone expects and gets respect and civility at DVInfo.


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