DV Info Net

DV Info Net (https://www.dvinfo.net/forum/)
-   Final Cut Suite (https://www.dvinfo.net/forum/final-cut-suite/)
-   -   FCP vs Vegas (https://www.dvinfo.net/forum/final-cut-suite/98299-fcp-vs-vegas.html)

Dana Salsbury July 5th, 2007 11:35 PM

FCP vs Vegas
 
I know Vegas well. What would be the learning curve if I bought a Mac and switched to FCP? I'm also seeing FCP2 and other versions. I take it the Suite is the one to get, right?

Roger Bloemers July 7th, 2007 08:07 PM

Vegas FCE
 
I am a Vegas user for several years. I am also a FCE HD 3.5 user for almost one year. Sorry FC guys but for me Vegas is much better, and also much faster. I am thinking of switching to Premiere Pro CS3 for my iMac 24.

Gabe Strong July 7th, 2007 11:33 PM

Umm.....You do know that FCE is nowhere near what FCP 6 is right?? It's kind of like comparing Premiere Elements to Premiere Pro, or Photoshop Elements to Photoshop CS3. Just wanted to clarify. Final Cut Studio 2 (of which Final Cut Pro 6 is but one part) is an absolutely great suite of programs.... (I don't even know if you can buy Final Cut Pro 6 separately). When you take into account Motion 3 (with 3D capability....think After Effects) Soundtrack Pro, Compressor, DVD Studio Pro, Livetype.....I'd say it's a pretty good package. My personal opinion is that this package outshines Vegas.....but that's just my opinion. You definitely get a lot in the package though, it's like Adobe's Production Studio....it has an integrated package of programs instead of just an NLE.

Boyd Ostroff July 8th, 2007 06:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gabe Strong (Post 708627)
Final Cut Studio 2 (of which Final Cut Pro 6 is but one part) is an absolutely great suite of programs.... (I don't even know if you can buy Final Cut Pro 6 separately).

Final Cut Pro (FCP) used to be available separately, but you can only get it as part of the full Final Cut Studio now. So your choices are either Final Cut Studio 2 (FCS2) or Final Cut Express (FCE).

Mike Peter Reed July 8th, 2007 06:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dana Salsbury (Post 707769)
I know Vegas well. What would be the learning curve if I bought a Mac and switched to FCP? I'm also seeing FCP2 and other versions. I take it the Suite is the one to get, right?

The Suite (Studio) is the right one to get, and overall it blows Vegas away IMO.

HOWEVER

I too prefer Vegas in some ways. I've always been a "timeline editor" (rather than a 3-point editor), I guess old Super8 cut/splice habits die hard, even in the digital domain. Vegas started as an audio-only program (I am an audio kind of guy) so it's fairly audio-centric and sits well with me.

FCP on the other hand is still lame-ass for doing audio work (though you could argue that is what Soundtrack Pro which is part of the package is for - and it is very good).

As for FCP vs Premiere --- well, the interfaces were pretty designed by the same guy.

I would say the learning curve between FCP <---> Vegas is initially quite steep, but only dependent upon your ability to remember keyboard commands and menu locations. Cut, dissolve, fade to black .... what else do you need ;-)

David Scattergood July 8th, 2007 07:28 AM

I found FCP a little tricky when I first used it - I'd jumped from Premiere on the PC which was quite straightforward.
I love FCP now and my speed with commands is improving as the creative technicalities.
I could do with obtaining a set of coloured command keys however (I think you can stickers for you keyboard which are really cheap).
And yes - the suite is ideal - the fact all these editors 'talk' to each other makes life a lot easier (and sound editing in FCP is very poor).

Victor Kellar July 8th, 2007 11:46 AM

"Umm.....You do know that FCE is nowhere near what FCP 6 is right?? "

Well, not exactly true. If you are comparing the Suite to FCE then yes, of course, there are signficant differences... you don't get Motion or, in the FCS2, you don't get Color .. but with FCE 3 and higher you get Soundtrack and Livetype

In terms of comparing just FCP and FCE they are very similar. In terms of actual editing, they are pretty much identical. Same timeline, same effects, filters, etc. Day in day out they are very close

What you lose in FCE is things like a larger number of formats you can work in, batch capturing, Media Manager and so on. For some people, depending on your workflow, these can be significant .. for others, not so much. Current FCE 3.5 even gives you keyframable filters now.

I know nothing of Vegas so I can't compare. Premiere and FCP are similar, but just approach things differently. When using a new app its always good to try and get the previous app out of your head; nothing works exactly the same way

Vegas seems to have everyone excited about its ability to edit audio; again, I've never used it but, as a video editor, I am pretty happy with FCP, especially with Soundtrack included. Its ability to do fine EQing and sound correction is certainly limited; Soundsoap and Audacity help. Again, my emphasis is video, not music, so I don't the level of something like Pro Tools. If Vegas gives you that kind of level and your emphasis is sound then no, I don't FCP would compare.

Dana Salsbury July 8th, 2007 02:06 PM

I think the time I'll save on technical errors will be worth buying a $2,500 system and learning new software. I am concerned about the learning curve though.

Chris Harris July 8th, 2007 03:15 PM

I've never used Vegas before, but I came to Final Cut Pro after about 2 years of Adobe Premiere experience and it didn't take me too long to get used to it. Like with anything though, the more time you spend with it, the better you get. You'll probably start out doing simple edits, and as time goes by, you'll pick up little tricks and techniques, and you'll become more proficient. I don't think the learning curve is that bad at all.

Waldemar Winkler July 9th, 2007 06:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Scattergood (Post 708718)
I found FCP a little tricky when I first used it - I'd jumped from Premiere on the PC which was quite straightforward.
I love FCP now and my speed with commands is improving as the creative technicalities.
I could do with obtaining a set of coloured command keys however (I think you can stickers for you keyboard which are really cheap).
And yes - the suite is ideal - the fact all these editors 'talk' to each other makes life a lot easier (and sound editing in FCP is very poor).

EZKeyboard. Custom made for a variety of editing applications.

Glenn Chan July 9th, 2007 08:04 PM

IMO the keyboards with shortcuts on them aren't that useful.

A- You want to memorize all the shortcuts, in which case the shortcuts on the keyboard isn't that useful after that.
B- Some of the most useful shortcuts aren't on the keyboard. e.g. you can hit + plus sign or - and type in a number to edit that many frames forwards/backwards.

To duplicate a clip, option drag the click and let go of option.

2- FCP is a bit of a different mindset than Vegas.

You can search clips. You organize clips differently. The bins and the timeline are separate databases. Adding something into the timeline doesn't automatically put it in the media pool / browser. Changing stuff in the media pool / browser doesn't change the clip in the timeline.

The editing tools are kind of reversed... you select the tool with the right ripple behavior, then perform your edit. In Vegas, you edit and then ripple if necessary.

FCP has crtl+G for close gap, paste event attributes has more options.

Landmines: There are some bugs in FCP. Use auto-save. The Media Manager doesn't handle speed changes.
FCP doesn't like big sequences. Use small sequences and nest them into a master sequence.

David Scattergood July 10th, 2007 03:00 AM

Quote:

FCP doesn't like big sequences. Use small sequences and nest them into a master sequence.
How big are we talking Glenn?
I've just worked on 5 seperate sequences all around an hour long without any issues.
However, the first few minutes of each were identical (intro piece) copied into each of the sequences (not sure if you would refer to that as nesting?). The remainder of the sequence was one, hour long performance...

Kevin James July 10th, 2007 11:07 AM

Ok here goes-

Two weeks ago bought a MacBook Pro and Final Cut Studio 2 to Replace my aging P4 Vegas Based system. I have been using vegas professionally since 2003.

I'm going to keep this post very broad and general as I havent yet completed a full project in FCP, only used the various functions to learn my way around.

My initial impressions:

Vegas is faster- there is no doubt that for quick and dirty Vegas blows FCP out of the water- that being said, so far FCP has forced me to get out of the bad habits I developed using vegas, such as not properly logging my clips.

The canvas/viewer system is very nice- I like it better than the trimmer and project windows in vegas. The one caveat there is Vegas' quick selection of audio or video using tab is replaced with the destination controls, kinda clunky.

Clip and media management makes much more sense to me, it didnt at first- the first day I was groping around but now I find the nested bins make organization much easier.

Multicam Rocks, I mean big time. I use UltimateS for multicam in vegas, but I already prefer the system in FCP.

Vegas' Slo mo kills FCP's- I havent tried Motion's retiming yet. I did try Twixtor plugin- That plugin blows Vegas' retiming out of the water, but is pricey.

The included documentation for FCP is quite good. I would say that after about a week of playing with various parts of the system for a couple hours a day I am read to take on a full project in FCP.

I will post to this thread after I finish the project with more thoughts on the transition.

A this point I feel the change from Vegas to FCP has been pretty painless, but I have dog eared a ton of pages in the instruction books.

Glenn- Great way to say it in this post: "The editing tools are kind of reversed... you select the tool with the right ripple behavior, then perform your edit. In Vegas, you edit and then ripple if necessary."

Tobin Strickland July 10th, 2007 01:50 PM

Vegas on Boot Camp or Parallels
 
Is anyone using Vegas on Boot Camp or Parallels for Mac?

Glenn Chan July 10th, 2007 02:16 PM

Quote:

How big are we talking Glenn?
I've just worked on 5 seperate sequences all around an hour long without any issues.
However, the first few minutes of each were identical (intro piece) copied into each of the sequences (not sure if you would refer to that as nesting?). The remainder of the sequence was one, hour long performance...
Sorry, I should have qualified my statement.

FCP does not like an extreme number of cuts and markers in your sequences. ?300+? and it will start slowing down and you get that "preparing video for display" window.

Quote:

Vegas is faster- there is no doubt that for quick and dirty Vegas blows FCP out of the water- that being said, so far FCP has forced me to get out of the bad habits I developed using vegas, such as not properly logging my clips.
If you're working with DV, FCP can also do scene detection. It's under DV start/stop scene detect. IMO the traditional log&capture procedure is a waste of time.

Capture everything, scene detect, then log your clips.

On the other hand, if you are doing an offline/online then there are certain things to watch out for. When FCP re-captures a clip, it will capture the entire clip/scene... including footage outside the chunk you are using. If you did log&capture, it's not a big deal. But if you do things the "lazy" way, then some type of workaround is in order.

Quote:

Vegas' Slo mo kills FCP's- I havent tried Motion's retiming yet. I did try Twixtor plugin- That plugin blows Vegas' retiming out of the water, but is pricey.
FCP can do speed ramps like in Vegas.

Shake has optical flow retiming, which is slow but very good quality. Similar in concept to Twixtor. I'm not sure what Motion does.

Dana Salsbury July 10th, 2007 03:53 PM

For me this will be about a $2500 investment to switch from Vegas/PC to FCP/Mac. Vegas isn't that bad, but the OS is killing me. I'm concerned about speed. Since quitting my job, I really need to fly.

BTW, I haven't been able to find a Quad w/ the FCP2 Suite, so I'll pry go with a duo. Any recommendations on PowerBook Pro vs Desktop?

Greg Hartzell July 10th, 2007 04:09 PM

I'm curious to what gripes you are having with xp? I personally find file manegment on osx much slower, and honestly, a well configed pc and mac with equal specs will run neck and neck (you can look all over the internet for benchmarks if you would like to prove me wrong, but I have used some really nice machines of either platform). You wont save much money on a new computer if you upgrade your pc, but the vegas package really is a killer steal for what it offers and their are more than a few members of DVinfo that are producing some really nice stuff with it. But, if you think you can sell your self on the increased capabilities of FCS, then go for it, I think you'll be more than happy.

Kevin James July 10th, 2007 04:10 PM

If you'll forgive my french........my MacBook Pro Santa Rosa 2.4 w 4gb ram hauls ass.........

Dana Salsbury July 10th, 2007 05:43 PM

It's not speed. It's the errors and quirks. Actually I think the speed will improve because I won't have so many files running in the background.

One FCP Ste concern I haven't heard is whether having so many different apps is a problem. Is it a pain to have to start up and manage all these different programs all the time?

Kevin James July 10th, 2007 05:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dana Salsbury (Post 710054)
It's not speed. It's the errors and quirks. Actually I think the speed will improve because I won't have so many files running in the background.

One FCP Ste concern I haven't heard is whether having so many different apps is a problem. Is it a pain to have to start up and manage all these different programs all the time?

Not really, they update automatically into FCP

Greg Hartzell July 10th, 2007 08:16 PM

Yeah, installing and update are both really easy and strait forward. Just keep track of requirements for new versions. Your mac wont tell you you need to update quicktime, at least mine didn't. Also, if you don't need the protability, I'd go for the desktop. The macbook pro's are great laptops, but a desktop is way easier to upgrade and maintain, not to mention more ports, which is useful if you want to add extra hard drives or have more than a few peripherals.

Kevin James July 11th, 2007 09:59 AM

1 Attachment(s)
As far as virtualization goes, I am running parallels and vegas to finish off a couple of projects, and even under parallels they render faster than my old P4 2.4, playback is marginally better, but for some reason much better on clips that have magic bullet look suite on them (better GPU?).

Here is a screenshot of vegas at idle under parallels, notice in my menu bar processor usage, temp, and ram usage. The processor spike is from opening the dashboard.

During playback the processor usage goes to about 90% on both cores, compared to about 20% in FCP.

I would imagine running parallels off of a boot camp partition would improve performance immensely, as I can only take advantage of 1gb of ram virtualizing.

Also, the biggest issue for our line of work- Parallels does NOT support firewire! I am having to edit these projects off of a USB 2.0 drive- it is hell, believe me. Partially the drive's fault- it is a WD My Book Premium, even under firewire it's seek times are kinda crappy (compared to my lacie's and old WD firewire's). Again, this would probably be easier if I was running off of a boot camp partition.

Here is an article on how to run parallels off of boot camp:
http://lifehacker.com/software/geek-...mac-267905.php

Nick Weeks July 11th, 2007 11:18 AM

I agree with a lot said about FCP in this topic. I was in the same boat, use Premiere on PC forever since like version 5, and I switched completely from PC and Premiere to Mac and FCP 5 and I haven't looked back. It was a headache because of the very small, but significant differences in the editing style between Premiere and FCP, but recently using a PPro 2 box I have a hard time finding my way around.

Audio editing sucks unless you use Soundtrack, I actually still use cooledit (I think its called Audition now) on PC for some audio editing.

THe file management on Mac can be a little bit of a hassle over the PC especially if you're not a day-to-day Mac user, but I would take FCP's media manager over Premiere any day.

I tried Vegas demo, twice, actually, and I couldn't bring myself to like it at all... sorry guys. It did have some nice features, but it always felt like something was missing.

If you can afford the change, I say go for it. I was skeptical at first but like I said... I never looked back.

Jim Fields July 11th, 2007 02:57 PM

I tried PP2 a few months ago, one of my clients uses it and let me install it on my iMac with a bootcamp XP install.

Aside from having to try to use XP, PP2 seemed very limiting. I could not import my HDV quicktime files into PP2, I could only use AVI, I dont use AVI for anything so that was confusing. I found the timeline to be similar, but the rest of the program to be ok. I picked it up in a few days and was comfy playing with it.

However the deal breaker was Compressor, or lack of it. I love Compressor. I can do so much when it comes to exporting, anyway I like it. PP2 did not have it and I was done. Nothing from PP2 save for the Mpeg 2 DVD files was compatable with FCP in anyway. The DVD program that ccame with PP2 seemed cheap, plastic like and super generic, I prefer DVD SP of that.

I gues after all of these years on FCP trying to go to another program is out of the question, I was curious about Vegas because some editors I know swear by it, but after seeing the above scrren shot of vegas, I will stick to FCP and just have to deal with hte lack of support for my Camera in that software.

Kevin James July 12th, 2007 08:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glenn Chan (Post 709951)


If you're working with DV, FCP can also do scene detection. It's under DV start/stop scene detect. IMO the traditional log&capture procedure is a waste of time.

Capture everything, scene detect, then log your clips.

While watching one of the podcasts they mention that you shouldnt use capture now for more than 30 minutes at a time, or your audio and video will go out of sync- what is your capture workflow?

I did capture now on the whole tape (I hadnt seen this podcast yet), then did the scene detection, then made subclips.

David Scattergood July 12th, 2007 08:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevin James (Post 710881)
While watching one of the podcasts they mention that you shouldnt use capture now for more than 30 minutes at a time, or your audio and video will go out of sync- what is your capture workflow?

I did capture now on the whole tape (I hadnt seen this podcast yet), then did the scene detection, then made subclips.

Not noticed any synching problems with this method...in fact for hour long performances, as an example, you only really have the option of capturing the whole tape in one capture.

Glenn Chan July 12th, 2007 12:00 PM

Quote:

While watching one of the podcasts they mention that you shouldnt use capture now for more than 30 minutes at a time, or your audio and video will go out of sync- what is your capture workflow?
This doesn't really happen. Unless perhaps if you are using Canon DV footage.

For some reason, I always manually set my in and out points for capturing. I cue to the last TC, set the out point, set the in point at 2 seconds, and capture that. I can't remember why I do this instead of capture now... it might be that this doesn't have the problem with audio sync or something.

Kevin James July 12th, 2007 12:09 PM

Thanks Glenn, I'll try that, should be too hard as my tapes are usually at the out point when I put them in the camera ;)

Simon Denny June 5th, 2008 09:55 PM

Sorry to bring up and old post,it's that Vegas vs FCS thing again in my head.

Hi Kevin,
Are you still editing on a Mac? and if so how does it compare to Vegas after all this time?

I'm still trying to convince myself that FCS is the way to go but after looking at what Vegas does compared to FCS, is it really worth it.

Cheers
Simon

Robert Lane June 6th, 2008 08:21 AM

The quick answer to your question, is that comparing FCS to Vegas is like comparing a compact, pocket-camera to an SLR: Both take pictures and both can potentially create amazing images, but the pocket camera's interface is over-simplified and has limited controls - which is appealing to many because of it's simplicity. The SLR on the other hand may appear clunky at first because of it's bulk and deep options but will ultimately give far greater control and better images because of lens options.

It's the same with this comparison; Vegas is a very well-rounded product and does it's job well - for it's intended market - but can't be compared to a full suite of applications that are designed for professional use.

I'm sure for most learning FCS will be a steep curve because the everything from the interface to asset handling and archiving projects is completely different and in fact FCS may appear overwhelming. It all comes down to what your needs are. If you're not editing for money (as in full-time work) then Vegas might be all you need, but if you intend to compete in commercial markets such as news, broadcast or film then you'd need the FC suite of products. Or Avid. (*_^)

Kevin James June 6th, 2008 09:20 AM

I'm going to have to disagree with Robert- I think Vegas is immensely powerful. It's titling and audio mixing capabilities blow FCP out of the water. The sheer speed at swhich you can create a polished cut is incredible.

That being said, bringing Motion and Soundtrack into the picture shift the balance.

With Vegas though, you dont have to use multiple apps to accomplish the same thing.

Now, heres the Rub: I have not touched vegas in a year. At all. My freelance business has grown exponentially. I get work at various post houses and prod companies around town because I know Final Cut Studio. It has taken a huge chunk out of Avid, and around here is the dominant NLE.

If I had not taken the time to learn and become proficient with FCS my career wouldn't be taking off the way it is. I highly recommend getting a mac and learning FCS.

That being said, Vegas' interface and ease of getting up and running allowed me to concentrate on learning the *art* of pacing and making a good cut without getting slogged down in a steep learning curve.

On the negative side of things I had to completely re-educate myself on good organization with the switch. Fortunately I've assisted some great editors who have really helped me work up a system that is consistent, fast, and easy to step into.

In the end, go FCS- maybe even grab an education copy of Avid as well. Vegas will not be breaking into many major post houses as the in house solution anytime soon, and knowing what is used will allow you to collaborate, freelance, and be able to take a job just about anywhere. Even if you are running your own prod. co. this will allow you to hire just about anyone to step in on your gear or their own and give you the ability to collaborate.

I highly recommend checking out the Apple Discussion forums on FCS- there is a TON of great info in there from some incredible big brains on FCS.

Check out Shane Ross and Larry Jordans blogs for some consistent info for the FCS user. There is also a blog called Editing Organized out there which is a great read.

I hope this helps, good luck, edit organized, remember to shoot handles, set your TC to start at 1hr, and roll bars!

-Kevin

Simon Denny June 6th, 2008 11:56 AM

Spot on Kevin. All the info i need.

Regards
Simon

Andy Wilkinson June 15th, 2008 07:13 AM

Vegas versus FCP
 
I've been reading this thread over the last few weeks with great interest so thanks to all of you who have contributed.

I love Vegas 7 (been using it for 9 months now) but I'm doing it on a 4 year old Dell 3.0Ghz P4 HT and even if I stick with Vegas I'd want a much faster new windows box (for say 1,500 quid) as I'm a great believer in having the right tools for the job.

I'm also begining to do some work with a mate locally who's got an EX1 and uses FCP 6 on a Mac Book Pro so having my own access to FCP would make a lot of sense. I don't want an EX3 but will buy a Z7 soon for various reasons - but that's for another forum section (basically cost/interchangeable lense/fast transfer from CF card but I still want tape option for archive etc.)

I'm strongly leaning towards getting one of the new Mac Pro 8 core 2.8GHz (with extra RAM, RAID set-up etc.) as this will allow me to learn FCP but still use Vegas 7 as and when I need/want too (until the current box dies - and then I still have the option of replacing it at a relatively modest cost!)

Going to a new Mac Pro/FC Studio will not be a cheap option (!), especially when I factor in a second Dell 2408WFP Monitor for it but I'm currently viewing it as a necessary and sensible step...... so keep these comments coming as people like me read every word!

Erwin van Dijck June 15th, 2008 08:05 AM

I switched about 2 ~ 3 months ago from Vegas on a PC to a MacPro 8 core with FCS. I took time to learn the new software, did some online training at Lynda.com, read a book, experimented and I am happily running Final Cut now.

Vegas is very good at certain tasks and is dong it fast. But I think in the end the complete package of FCS with all the integrated applications, clean way of working, and based on a solid foundation (Mac) makes it the way to go.

Some examples: Final Cut renders during unused processor time, providing you with a pre-rendered timeline to watch - no stuttering on transitions as I used to have in Vegas! And the 8-core is powerful enough to give a 1:1 preview on a second 24" monitor.

Or take the interview from a clip: with one mouse click you sent it to SoundTrack to easily remove that irritating airconditioning hum, and then you sent it back.

Or take Compressor, the killer app that made my delivery workflow go triple as fast: it converts a movie to every format or versions I want, in a batch, and can even upload automatically to our FTP site. And if the customers want a small change in the edit? I just start the batch again and the whole process runs smoothly without interference.

regards,
Erwin

John C. Plunkett June 16th, 2008 07:56 AM

Vegas is not a toy. I've used it for 8 years and have always considered it to be the fastest editor around. It's what I consider to be a great open-ended foundation for building the NLE you want. With that said, I use FCP as much if not more now than Vegas, but I still run both.


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:17 AM.

DV Info Net -- Real Names, Real People, Real Info!
1998-2024 The Digital Video Information Network