Will the HDV format fade away?
 

HI there
I hope this is the right place to post this question or should I say my concern

I am a wedding videographer that currently has the fx1
My debate started when I started looking for a 2nd camera.
I did not know if I should get the z1 , z7 or the ex1
The only thing with the Ex1 is that I don’t think it can work together with the fx1 since it is HD Format vs. HDV.
So do I need to sell my fx1 and get to EX1?
Will the HDV format fade away? If so why did Sony make the z7?

Don't sweat it. HDV is well established and isn't going to disappear overnight. The EX1 also uses MPEG2 compression. MPEG2 editing support will be around for the foreseeable future.

Hi Dror, it's important to realize that HDV *is* HD. HDV is one particular HD format while XDCAM HD is another particular HD format (ultimately though, they are both HD formats, each with its own type of workflow). All video formats fade away eventually -- but HDV isn't leaving us anytime soon. Hope this helps,

The EX1 will shoot HDV if you want it to.

XDCAM HD is HDV at a faster data rate.

I don't understand your point...

He's commenting that XDCAM uses the same basic compression technology as HDV, but at higher bit rates - plus it can record full 1920 x 1080 resolution where HDV is anamorphic 1440 x 1080. So it's not quite the same but they are related.

People have been predicting the decline of HDV since it was introduced four years ago, but it's still going strong and will continue to be functional as long as miniDV tapes are readily available. One good complement to an FX1 would be another FX1, or a Z1U if you need more advanced features. The Z7U is also becoming popular for weddings but is a bit harder to learn than the FX1. Also consider that the HC9 can be a good backup camera and playback device for the more expensive cameras.

Thank you all for your all comments and suggestion.
After reading and reading some more I got to the conclusion that I am still not sure and still confused as far as how long it will take before the HD will be the dominate format.
Is it going to take 2 or 3 years? That I don’t know.
It does not look like it will take long especially when you see this days small cameras coming in HD format like the Canon VIXIA HV30 HD Camcorder.
For my needs as a wedding videographer the HD cameras that I considered are not an option at this point
First because over the entire package is very expensive when you add to it the storage cards.
2nd it has problems when there is photographers around it (flash light)
So, I think for me 2nd fx1 will do it.
Again thank you so much for all the input.

You might look at the XH-A1. (Better value at current retail prices, in my opinion.)

HD is quickly replacing SD as the standard recording format for professional video projects, thanks partly to the popularity of HDV (which as Chris noted is an HD format). Another FX1 will serve you well until you have a client who insists on more advanced gear, and at that point just charge them for the cost of renting same.

Keep in mind that by quickly, he means that SD was predicted to DIE 5 years ago... and still isn't gone. You'll see much more HD here than out in the real world even as these are the bleeding edge folks ;)

I'd be somewhat surprised if sales of HD cameras don't exceed sales of SD cameras, to professionals, by a pretty wide margin nowadays.

I know a few HDV cameras used by broadcast camera people that have (so far) only been used for shooting SD on Mini DV.

HDV will eventually fade away, but not for a while. But HDV is based on tape, but tape is going away. I have an EX1, and I'm now a fan of drive-, disc/disk-, or card-based cameras!

As for a second camera, how about the small Sony A1u?

heath

IMHO the FX1 will be fine so long as you go out and shoot good stuff with it and earn enough money to make it into a profit centre rather than a cost.

There's two sides to HD:

- The origination format (HDV, DVCProHD, whatever is the flavour of the month)

- The delivery format (BluRay, HD via cable or satellite, web based, downloadable files)

Your wedding clients don't need to know the origination format, but do need to know that you will DELIVER in HD, whether you give them a BluRay disk, a URL or even the channel and time slot. I doubt you'll hand over a tape!

Now that BluRay and Cable are established, and broadcasters switch to HD, I guess we're seeing the graph of HD viewers begin to point ever upwards, which means we're probably in the foothills of a standard bell-chart of adoption. Even in the UK it's hard not to purchase any TV (of reasonable quality) that's not HD ready. So anyone replacing their TV set in the last year or so just needs some source device with an HDMI output.

As well as a Standard Def DVD, you may hand over your HDV-sourced and HDV-edited wedding video as a 1280x720 WMV on DVD-ROM (or on the Data portion of your DVD which is what I currently do), so if/when they have a PC with HDMI output, they can watch it in HD that way.

But in the years I've been working with Z1s, I've never been asked to hand over an HDV tape (other than handing over rushes of course).

Well, as the EX family prove - HDV is not limited to recording format. Neither is XDCAM-HD. HDV isn't just on tape - as FCS or any other NLE demonstrates.

So I'd bet the farm on tape fading away (debate elsewhere if that is good or bad thing), whilst HDV in various forms is here for a while yet - just not on tape.

As we move into tapeless acquisition, HDV will end, since the format is tape-based. But it's already evolving, as we shoot on XDCAM HD/EX and other formats.

Heath

Hold on, what is all this about HDV being tape based?

A colleague shoots HDV exclusively on his EX1 - no tape there.

A lot of us edit HDV and store it on disk, DVD-ROM and BluRay - no tape there.

HDV is just the adolescent version of XDCAM-HD.

It's a relatively low-overhead 'let's play a game we all know' format unlike the variants of -

- okay, so HDV1 is probably tape based. Ahh, no. Bzzt. Wrong answer - use a firestore!

No tape there.

Why is HDV perceived as tape based?

You're right about HDV on the EX, but HDV was designed in 2003 to be tape-based, which means the name HDV will make way for the tapeless formats. Semantics, I know, but DV didn't evolve like HDV did.

I also love how HDV sold so many more cameras than most other sub-$10,000 camera formats. I think the two main factors for this were HD acquisition that didn't cost $100,000, and film-style qualities (24p, 1/48 shutter, cine settings, etc.).

Heath

ps- http://www.hdv-info.org/page2.htm

I've been working with HDV since 2003 with the (not-so-great) HD10. I loved that I could still use minidv tapes, which cost so much less than ever. When I made my flick Skye Falling (XL1) in 1999, Sony minidv tapes (60 minute rolls) cost $10 each!

Check out www.904am.com and www.youtube.com/mpsdigital to see some downconverted stuff from a film I directed two years ago, 9:04 AM, that was shot on the Z1u in 50i with CineFrame 25 (then converted to 24p in Final Cut Pro's Cinema Tools) and a prototype V1u (24p).

heath

I seem to remember reading someplace that the Z1U sold more cameras in less time than the PD150 when it hit the market so big.

Yeah, I didn't look around for numbers, but HDV cameras like the HD110, Z1u, FX1, XLH1 all sold more in the peak of HDV (late 2004-late 2006) than most pro DV cameras did in the late 1990s to 2004.

And let's not forget the HVX200! That was a BIG seller!

Of course, in my humblest of opinions, the DVX100/a/b changed the sub-$50,000 DV/HD camera market forever with digital film options.

I think the best DV camera was the DVX100a, and the best HDV camera was a tie between the functionality, picture and ergonomics of the Z1u, and the picture, functionality and price of the V1u (ergonomics were weird on that camera, because it was so small, there were less buttons and more menu functions vs. the Z1u).

Right now, I'm in love with my EX1 and can't wait to try out the EX3 tomorrow!!

heath

Okay, so in 2003, the idea of solid state recording would have been nuts. Hands up who remember the 128 MB RAM disk for Macs in 1991 - $24,000! 2003, a top end CF card would be 128 MB? 512 MB? I'm sure tape was the only viable option then, but those amazing engineery types would ensure that it's all just data. 1s and 0s.

Totally agree, but with one exception: why, for the love of anything remotely resembling a deity of choice, did they not embrace 16:9 from the get-go? I so wanted a DVX100 - such a sensible little thing with an image to die for, but spending a grand on a bit of glass at the front is no substitute for getting it right (XL2). If the DVX100a supported 16:9 maybe I'd be Barry Green's apprentice by now.


Be careful - I hear the ergonomics, viewfinder and 'magic knob' are addictive. Just picture the scene at an airport. Unless you can go for the wangle too, the pictures will be the same... But I want one too...

I love my EX1 as well, but the HDV based XH-A1 is just as detailed at 1080i60, you only start seeing a difference when you are in low light, or go to 24p, ...a tiny improvement in shallow depth of field, , and a bunch of extra features, i.e. over/undercranking, time lapse, manual lens etc.,...and rolling shutter issues.

In other words, there is nothing inherently obsolete about HDV except the tape. It's still digital, still hi-def. What we're going to see is its disappearance from all the consumer cams (if it hasn't already), and take on an extended career in the hands of semi-pro cams like the Canon XH-A1/G1, XL-H1, Sony Z1/FX1/V1/FX7 and tapeless HDV in the EX1/EX3 and Z7.

Exactly! Heck, in 1999, people were astonished to hear I had 120 GB of internal hard drives for my Final Cut Pro/G3 Power Mac rig! And it cost only $3,000, and it was spread out on 4 drives.

Same year, I was working at an NBC affiliate, and we were talking about hard drive cameras, and how if you drop the drive, you're done. I love solid-state cards! I can't wait for prices to come down so we can have solid-state internal and external drives, widespread.

Heath

To be honest, more and more, the HDV cameras were so alike, it was just a matter of which one you were most comfortable with. Competition made us, the shooters, the winners. I feel like the next-gen of these types of cameras, like the HVX200a, the EX1/3, and others, are just incredible.

I dare say we're in the golden age of sub-$10,000 digital cinema/HD cameras.

heath